LDS Mormons and the Bible

Ignatius the Kiwi

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(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

That being said, I believe God still has much to revile:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:1 - 3)

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

This implies at most that Paul to the Corinthians didn't teach them everything, not that the bible is missing the essentials of the Gospel. The most essential thing being spiritual temple marriages according to Mormons.

Yet this doesn't answer my question. Did the Bible at one point contain this teaching but the Church took it out? I doubt that, given how the manuscripts of the Bible were never controlled by one Church body and were spread out all over Europe and the Mediterranean world yet all correspond to each other for the most part.

What Phoebe Ann quoted in the first post seems to imply just that however and I would like to know if Mormons actually believe this. If you deny it, what do you make of the quotes?
 
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dzheremi

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In your opinion, what is the gospel (good news)? It certainly is not knowing everything that God knows.

Where did I ever say it is? This is irrelevant in a way that supremely irritating.

Just like the claim that someone or something removed or caused to be lost "many plain and precious things" from the gospel (whatever you consider it to be; I don't care, and won't be getting into an unrelated argument so as to give you a platform to spew more Muslim...er...excuse me, Mormon nonsense all over the place about how the Bible is this or that or the gospel is this or that), we have here a Mormon who is starting from his religion's conclusion and then working backwards. Why would you be doing that? Because you clearly think that you have some things as a Mormon (truths, practices, whatever) that are 'restored' that Christians do not have, right? (or else the stuff presented by Phoebe Ann in the OP doesn't really make a lot of sense...not that I would ever want to stop a Mormon leader from not making any sense, even if I could.)

So I think a better question would be: in the context of admitting that there is yet more to be revealed, what exactly makes the Mormon gospel 'complete' and the Christian gospel 'incomplete'? Temple marriages? Special temple undergarments? Baptisms for the dead? The temple ceremony itself?

What is it?
 
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Rescued One

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Your right, I was mixing stories. Let's start over.

Starting your Mormon perception over has accomplished very little.

There is no point in baptizing for dead people. If their names are not already in the Book of Life, they don't have eternal life. If their names ARE in the Book of Life, they have eternal life.


In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is talking to the brethren of the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints.

In verse 12, it is revealed that some of them did not believe there was actually going to be a resurrection. So Paul tells them why the resurrection is important.

1 Corinthians 15
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

If Christ isn't resurrected, we aren't saved from our sins! HIS RESURRECTION is the point that Paul is trying to convince them of. The heretics were baptizing for the dead because they believed in a resurrection. If even heretics believe in a resurrection, why can't the brethren believe?

But in verse 29 he remarks about the practice of baptizing people for the dead. Where did the brethren of the church learn to do baptisms for the dead?

They were NOT brethren. You added the word "brethren" to suit the Mormon agenda. If Paul is still speaking to brethren, why didn't he ask, "Why are WE being baptized for the dead?"

Or why didn't he ask "Why are WE COMMANDED to be baptized for the dead?"

Proxy baptisms were never commanded! Have Mormons been baptized for Judas Iscariot and Adolf Hitler?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Did the Bible at one point contain this teaching but the Church took it out? I doubt that, given how the manuscripts of the Bible were never controlled by one Church body and were spread out all over Europe and the Mediterranean world yet all correspond to each other for the most part.

This is the part a lot of the "big bad Church was in control of everything" conspiracy theorists tend to simply ignore.

At no point in the history of Christianity has there ever been this all-pervasive, controlling, monolithic power called "the Church"; by the time Christians did get some political influence Christianity already existed well outside the Roman world, and was well established in parts of the world in which they never, at any time, exercised any kind of power or wielded power to be able to manipulate and control information the way some claim. Even as Theodosius had declared Nicene Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, there were established and deep rooted Christian communities throughout Mesopotamia, Persia, and as far as India.

Though I do think the idea of the Christians of Kerala somehow being able to determine and control information on a vast and global scale is pretty amusing.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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This implies at most that Paul to the Corinthians didn't teach them everything, not that the bible is missing the essentials of the Gospel. The most essential thing being spiritual temple marriages according to Mormons.

Yet this doesn't answer my question. Did the Bible at one point contain this teaching but the Church took it out? I doubt that, given how the manuscripts of the Bible were never controlled by one Church body and were spread out all over Europe and the Mediterranean world yet all correspond to each other for the most part.

What Phoebe Ann quoted in the first post seems to imply just that however and I would like to know if Mormons actually believe this. If you deny it, what do you make of the quotes?
I do believe that there were many plain and precious things and covenants that are missing from the Bible. I also know that there are many copies of the manuscripts for the new testament although we do not have the original manuscript. Therefore I can only assume that these things were taken out before the copies of the manuscript were made. The other possibility is that some books were left out on purpose that should have been included.
 
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He is the way

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Where did I ever say it is? This is irrelevant in a way that supremely irritating.

Just like the claim that someone or something removed or caused to be lost "many plain and precious things" from the gospel (whatever you consider it to be; I don't care, and won't be getting into an unrelated argument so as to give you a platform to spew more Muslim...er...excuse me, Mormon nonsense all over the place about how the Bible is this or that or the gospel is this or that), we have here a Mormon who is starting from his religion's conclusion and then working backwards. Why would you be doing that? Because you clearly think that you have some things as a Mormon (truths, practices, whatever) that are 'restored' that Christians do not have, right? (or else the stuff presented by Phoebe Ann in the OP doesn't really make a lot of sense...not that I would ever want to stop a Mormon leader from not making any sense, even if I could.)

So I think a better question would be: in the context of admitting that there is yet more to be revealed, what exactly makes the Mormon gospel 'complete' and the Christian gospel 'incomplete'? Temple marriages? Special temple undergarments? Baptisms for the dead? The temple ceremony itself?

What is it?
God was not specific about what was left out of the Bible except that it was
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 13:26)

"...many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants...."
 
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He is the way

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This is the part a lot of the "big bad Church was in control of everything" conspiracy theorists tend to simply ignore.

At no point in the history of Christianity has there ever been this all-pervasive, controlling, monolithic power called "the Church"; by the time Christians did get some political influence Christianity already existed well outside the Roman world, and was well established in parts of the world in which they never, at any time, exercised any kind of power or wielded power to be able to manipulate and control information the way some claim. Even as Theodosius had declared Nicene Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, there were established and deep rooted Christian communities throughout Mesopotamia, Persia, and as far as India.

Though I do think the idea of the Christians of Kerala somehow being able to determine and control information on a vast and global scale is pretty amusing.

-CryptoLutheran
There are only two churches on earth, Christ's church and the church of the devil.
 
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dzheremi

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God was not specific about what was left out of the Bible except that it was
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 13:26)

"...many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants...."

So precious that you have no idea what they are, and yet are still convinced that what you have is somehow complete, while what Christians have is lacking. Got it. Makes tons of sense. Great premise to build a religion around.
 
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He is the way

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So precious that you have no idea what they are, and yet are still convinced that what you have is somehow complete, while what Christians have is lacking. Got it. Makes tons of sense. Great premise to build a religion around.
I am sure people felt the same way when they mocked Jesus for not coming down from the cross.
 
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Rescued One

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Most people are not wicked, but still need the baptismal ordinance performed in their behalf...

1 John 5
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6 - 8)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

"Them that are dead" are the spiritually dead, not physically dead! And those verses don't even mention baptism.
 
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Rescued One

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God was not specific about what was left out of the Bible except that it was
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 13:26)

"...many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants...."

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)

1 Nephi 13
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
 
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dzheremi

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I am sure people felt the same way when they mocked Jesus for not coming down from the cross.

Yeah, except Jesus knew what He was doing by not coming down, whereas the Mormon religion apparently puts it out there that they have the 'restoration' of the gospel, while Christians don't, because "many plain and precious things" were removed from the Christian religion at one time (can't say what or when, as "God didn't say") -- while at the same time admitting that they (Mormonism) aren't done receiving written/translated revelations, so their religion could change tomorrow and they'd have to be fine with it (just like in 1890, 1978...), which frankly sounds like the exact opposite of knowing what you're doing. It sounds like you're making it up as you go along, all the while chiding others for not having the "completeness" that you guys have...except you don't have that, according to your own religion!

And as Phoebe Ann rightly points out, feelings have nothing to do with anything. You (Mormonism) make the claim, and you have to back it up. Otherwise people are completely justified in pointing this sort of thing out. It'd be one thing if Jesus talked out of both sides of His mouth on things like Joseph Smith and those who follow him do, but Jesus was God, while Joseph Smith...well, obviously he wasn't, but he also wasn't lots of other stuff he claimed to be (a translator, a religious prophet commissioned by God to 'restore' His Church, a monogamist, etc.), so...yeah. You're trying to compare me to the people who mocked Jesus (certainly an emotional appeal, if there ever was one), but all I'm really doing is pointing out the self-refuting nature of Mormon arguments, so unless you've confused terrible Mormon arguments for the one you call your savior, I think that comparison is at least a little off base, to put it mildly.
 
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He is the way

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1 John 5
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.



"Them that are dead" are the spiritually dead, not physically dead! And those verses don't even mention baptism.
The world as a WHOLE (not individually) does lie in wickedness and that includes all who are of the church of the devil who are the tares mixed with the wheat. However there are still plenty of people who have not sinned unto death but have not received the necessary ordinances. Them that are dead refers to them that are physically dead:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:19 - 20)

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
 
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He is the way

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It isn't about feelings --- it's about TRUTH!
Yes it is about truth:

(New Testament | Matthew 27:41 - 43)

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
 
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dzheremi

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Yes it is about truth:

(New Testament | Matthew 27:41 - 43)

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Again, Christ knew what He was doing by not coming down. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself" (John 10:18), remember?

The same cannot be said of your Mormon leaders, including JS. From the failed 'revelation' about selling the BOM copyright in Canada, to Brigham Young's stern warning that race-mixing entails death (as confirmed by Mormon apologetic organizations), to the official abolition of polygamy in 1910, etc., it is clear to anyone with an eye to see and an ear to hear that your religion is made up according to the whims of the particular prophet in charge and the pressures of the age in which they find themselves (e.g., Utah's statehood being withheld unless Mormons renounced polygamy), and is not of God.
 
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He is the way

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There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)

1 Nephi 13
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
Yes the Bible is clarified in the Book of Mormon and the D&C and those who are diligent in seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness will understand them, but God in His wisdom did not specifically state what those plain and most precious things were. He has said:

(New Testament | James 1:3 - 7)

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

People need to be diligent in seeking wisdom from God.
 
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He is the way

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Again, Christ knew what He was doing by not coming down. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself" (John 10:18), remember?

The same cannot be said of your Mormon leaders, including JS. From the failed 'revelation' about selling the BOM copyright in Canada, to Brigham Young's stern warning that race-mixing entails death (as confirmed by Mormon apologetic organizations), to the official abolition of polygamy in 1910, etc., it is clear to anyone with an eye to see and an ear to hear that your religion is made up according to the whims of the particular prophet in charge and thr pressures of the age in which they find themselves (e.g., Utah's statehood being withheld unless Mormons renounced polygamy), and is not of God.
(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:12)

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Official Declaration 1:11 - 19)

11 The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty–first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

12 It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .
13 I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .
14 The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.
15 The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?
16 The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.
17 . . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .
18 I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

19 Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
 
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dzheremi

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(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:12)

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

What does this have to do with anything I wrote?

(Doctrine and Covenants | Official Declaration 1:11 - 19)

11 The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty–first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

Oh, well...he said it/wrote it, so I guess it must be true, huh? Is that the standard we're going with (by fiat, essentially)? Because in that case, not only is Joseph Smith a prophet, but so is Muhammad, so is Felix Manalo, so was Jeffrey Lundgren, so was David Koresh, etc. After all, he/they said so, and that's the standard you're going by by simply pasting this up here as though it speaks for itself/is its own argument. What a bunch of baloney.

12 It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .
13 I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .
14 The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.
15 The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?
16 The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.
17 . . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .
18 I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

Blahblahblah, more declarative statements that mean nothing to people outside of Mormonism. This really proves what I have been saying here (literally for years now) that the vast majority of Mormon apologists -- or at least the ones we meet here -- do not seem to understand the difference between making a statement and making an argument. They're not the same thing. Statements may be used to bolster arguments, and arguments are certainly composed of statements (in a way), but simply stating something and arguing why it should/shouldn't or is/isn't so are not the same thing.

Neither I nor any other non-Mormon gives two figs about these statements from your Mormon leaders. They don't prove anything at all, and come across as delusions of grandeur or worse. Either come up with an argument, or remain silent.

19 Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

Well it's certainly nice for Brigham Young or whoever this was to tell us how Jesus was feeling, but again, I don't buy it for even one second.

Simply scattering this Mormon sub-apologetic buckshot across the thread would perhaps be acceptable if this were a Mormon website, but it isn't, so you actually have to try here. With respect, you don't seem as though you are trying. You are simply cutting and pasting large blocks of nonsense and then calling it a day, or doing a word search while making it clear that you aren't actually reading the results before you post them. Both are annoying in the extreme and should stop now.

Gosh, I miss Jane_Doe. She was often wrong, but at least sometimes she endeavored to have a back-and-forth based on the idea that her being Mormon in itself was not enough to defend her own points any more than my being Christian is in itself a defense of my points. Peter1000 was also better than you at this, though unfortunately he couldn't stop bringing up my particular Church when it had nothing to do with anything, which was pretty unhelpful and transparently desperate, too.

Still, at least they tried! Try! Be more like your fellow Mormon posters in this regard, please! Your faith deserves better than what you're giving it (and I write this even while I disagree with Mormonism on most things as a matter of theological and ecclesiological principle).
 
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