LDS Mormonism vs. Scientology: A conversation with Chris Shelton and Jonathan Streeter

[dzheremi]

Just wanted to share a video I've currently got running as I do other work: a conversation on an ex-Scientologist's YouTube channel between Chris Shelton (the ex-Scientologist) and Jonathan Streeter, an ex-Mormon who has his own channel with videos on it about Mormonism.

I find this sort of comparison between two new religious movements to be very interesting (lots of parallels!), and I hope you guys can get something out of it too. The ex-Mormon talks about some of the things we have talked about on this messageboard before (e.g., the 'milk before meat' philosophy as Mormons apply it to their religion, who can discuss what and why, etc.), which is good to get some confirmation and additional details about.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Just wanted to share a video I've currently got running as I do other work: a conversation on an ex-Scientologist's YouTube channel between Chris Shelton (the ex-Scientologist) and Jonathan Streeter, an ex-Mormon who has his own channel with videos on it about Mormonism.

I find this sort of comparison between two new religious movements to be very interesting (lots of parallels!), and I hope you guys can get something out of it too. The ex-Mormon talks about some of the things we have talked about on this messageboard before (e.g., the 'milk before meat' philosophy as Mormons apply it to their religion, who can discuss what and why, etc.), which is good to get some confirmation and additional details about.

Thanks, dzheremi, this is great, it really addresses a lot of the issues we talk about in this forum.

 

[fatboys]

Thanks, dzheremi, this is great, it really addresses a lot of the issues we talk about in this forum.

It is somone sided that you can't take it serious. I have asked the same questions and had to find my own answers that satisfied me. I find it funny to hear that the church lied to them. I have been doing reasearch long before the internet. The internet has made things much easier but it has also brought out those who are sad and bitter which have a axe to grind. I didn't get all the way through it because I have heard their dribble. I was hopei g to find something new. I didn't.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

It is somone sided that you can't take it serious. I have asked the same questions and had to find my own answers that satisfied me. I find it funny to hear that the church lied to them. I have been doing reasearch long before the internet. The internet has made things much easier but it has also brought out those who are sad and bitter which have a axe to grind. I didn't get all the way through it because I have heard their dribble. I was hopei g to find something new. I didn't.

If you didn't get all the way through it then how do you know you have heard it? Based on your admission that you didn't listen to it all but you're against it, it's clear that you have a bias working as the basis for your disagreement rather than a disagreement with what they are saying (because you have not listened completely to what they were saying).

Seems like you're following the mormon religion's advice to its members to not learn anything about the mormon religion except from the religion itself. And that is not a good thing because it's a way for them to try to eliminate critical thought from its members, in order that they may have free reign to do anything they want, unquestioned. And, it works for them!

 

[dzheremi]

I didn't present it so that anyone, Mormon or otherwise, would agree with it. I just find interesting because this particular comparison is not one that you see very often, and also the ex-Mormon quite clearly has no problems speaking freely on matters that our resident Mormons claim are 'too sacred' to talk about, so it's valuable at that level, too. I don't necessarily agree with everything either of them says (I find it interesting that the ex-Scientologist host says something at one point like "I wish we could know what early Christianity was like", and then later says that he assumes that it must've looked a lot like how Scientology looks now...guess he never thought to have an Orthodox Christian on his show), but that does not stop me from listening to it and learning from them both, and the charge that they must be sad and bitter people is without foundation.

 

[fatboys]

If you didn't get all the way through it then how do you know you have heard it? Based on your admission that you didn't listen to it all but you're against it, it's clear that you have a bias working as the basis for your disagreement rather than a disagreement with what they are saying (because you have not listened completely to what they were saying).

Seems like you're following the mormon religion's advice to its members to not learn anything about the mormon religion except from the religion itself. And that is not a good thing because it's a way for them to try to eliminate critical thought from its members, in order that they may have free reign to do anything they want, unquestioned. And, it works for them!

I have heard it all. I did enjoy the introduction but when they started to bring up the same old arguments I got bored. It reminded me of the tree of life where those who had the gospel let go of the iron rod that led to the tree of life.

 

[Jane_Doe]

the ex-Mormon quite clearly has no problems speaking freely on matters that our resident Mormons claim are 'too sacred' to talk about, so it's valuable at that level, too.

Note: He is very much misrepresenting the LDS faith and getting the fact wrong.

The best way to get to learn any faith is to go to the house of worship and get it from the horse's mouth. I don't understand why people are so adverse to getting accurate first-hand information directly.

 

[dzheremi]

Don't blame it on "people here", Jane Doe, if you're not willing to discuss the things that he is because it's 'too sacred'. He could very well be making a lot of errors, but when you won't discuss such matters, you can't really blame people for getting the information from other sources that will. Your own religion's secrecy made it this way.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Don't blame it on "people here", Jane Doe

I didn't say "people here", I said "people"-- people in general.

He could very well be making a lot of errors

He is. And on much more than the temple stuff.

Your own religion's secrecy made it this way.

Are you willing to go to an LDS temple and see for yourself? The Tuscon Temple open house is this spring, you're welcome to go all you want.

 

[dzheremi]

I didn't say "people here", I said "people"-- people in general.

I'm sorry. I misread that line as "people here".

He is. And on much more than the temple stuff.

Okay.

Are you willing to go to an LDS temple and see for yourself? The Tuscon Temple open house is this spring, you're welcome to go all you want.

I'm not going to travel out of state to visit the place of worship of another religion. That's not what I'm even talking about. I'm talking about the kinds of principles your religion is run by that make it so that most of the places where certain information can be found have to be places that Mormons disapprove of, since Mormons themselves refuse to share these things, claiming that they are 'too sacred'. For instance, Mr. Streeter mentions a man who filmed the Mormon temple ceremony that is closed to outsiders (which is obviously a big no-no for Mormons) and put it up on YouTube for everyone to see. Since Mormons won't let non-Mormons see those same rituals, the only chance that I or any other non-Mormon would have to see them would be to watch that video, even though the fact that it exists is very offensive to Mormons. So, again, your religion's secrecy creates this situation that you don't like where people listen to ex-Mormons or watch things on YouTube that are a great offense to Mormons. If you were 100% open and honest with outsiders about your religion, you wouldn't be in this situation. There's no huge exposé on the religious rituals of the Orthodox, or Roman Catholics, or Protestants, since there'd be no context in which it would make sense to have such a thing, since these are all open about their religion and what it contains, unlike Mormonism.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm sorry. I misread that line as "people here".

Thank you for the apology.

I'm not going to travel out of state to visit the place of worship of another religion.

I'm sorry, for some reason I was thinking you lived in Arizona. Would you like to visit one closer to your house?

 

[dzheremi]

I'm sorry, for some reason I was thinking you lived in Arizona. Would you like to visit one closer to your house?

No, thank you. As we've discussed previously, this is not possible for me, though I appreciate the offer. Maybe ArmenianJohn could visit, though. I believe he's in NY or thereabouts if there is a temple around that area that he could go to. I'd be interested to know what he would find there. I'm assuming that open house events don't actually feature the Mormon temple ritual (the one that's not open to anyone but Mormons with a temple recommend), do they?

 

[Jane_Doe]

No, thank you. As we've discussed previously, this is not possible for me, though I appreciate the offer.

Hence my not understanding your issue here.

 

[dzheremi]

Again, the issue is that there is this situation wherein non-Mormons listen to ex-Mormons for information about the Mormon faith that present-Mormons won't tell them on account of it being sacred/a secret. You had written that you don't understand why people are adverse to getting accurate information first-hand, and the answer is that the Mormon religion refuses to share that with outsiders, so it has more to do with that refusal than wanting to get the information from secondary sources like Mr. Streeter.

Unless or until the Mormon religion opens itself entirely to outsiders (whether they are curious or critical), there is no sense to objecting to the video on the grounds that you did. Again, Mormonism itself creates this situation by not being open in the first place. You're the ones with all the stuff that you won't talk about. Nobody else put that stuff in your religion and told you to handle it the way that you do.

 

[Ironhold]

Note: He is very much misrepresenting the LDS faith and getting the fact wrong.

The best way to get to learn any faith is to go to the house of worship and get it from the horse's mouth. I don't understand why people are so adverse to getting accurate first-hand information directly.

As someone who works in the news media? I can easily think of a few reasons.

 

[Ironhold]

Again, the issue is that there is this situation wherein non-Mormons listen to ex-Mormons for information about the Mormon faith that present-Mormons won't tell them on account of it being sacred/a secret.

You've had countless offers to visit the church websites, speak with people in private, and even visit actual LDS facilities.

How is it that we're being so "deceptive" you feel the need to listen to someone who has every motive in the world to lie through his teeth?

You had written that you don't understand why people are adverse to getting accurate information first-hand, and the answer is that the Mormon religion refuses to share that with outsiders,

I've seen too many folks greet the church website like vampires greet sunlight. They have a narrative to maintain, and they're not going to let the facts get in the way of it.

Actual church theology is diametrically different from what a critic said it was? Backpedal like you're a Gawker staffer. Secular US history works prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the church was violently persecuted? Make stuff up so that you can claim the author is a Mormon spy. (That actually happened here on the forums, BTW.) Non-Mormon having to call people out for how they treat Mormons? Throw accusations of sock-puppetry.

Et cetra.

Unless or until the Mormon religion opens itself entirely to outsiders (whether they are curious or critical),

Unless the Orthodox faith opens itself to letting its members visit other denominations and obtain first-hand experience...

No, seriously. You're pointing fingers that can be pointed right back at you.

 

[dzheremi]

Unless the Orthodox faith opens itself to letting its members visit other denominations and obtain first-hand experience...

We do not require that anyone visit our services in order to see them and gain information about them. They're all over the internet because we put them there (also there are many places in the West where OO churches are few and far between, so this is important because often it's difficult to get to an actual church; where I live now there are no OO churches, for instance).

We are so interested in being known by the world that we even sometimes have liturgy prayed in English in Egypt for the purpose of having something to show to English-speaking people, as below where the liturgy is prayed in English from the cathedral in Sharm El Sheikh and filmed by Aghapy TV (Coptic TV channel) to be broadcast in the West:

And here is a 97 minute talk in English that explains in detail everything that happens in the liturgy:

If this is really an apt comparison, and not just a cheap shot and an immature 'I know you are, but what am I?' type of reply, then please kindly direct me to the Mormon-produced videos of your own temple ritual which are aired on TV and all over the internet and promoted openly to people of all backgrounds specifically so that they may view them without having to join the LDS and get a temple recommend, and the explanatory videos which tell anyone who watches them in detail what goes on in said ritual.

If you cannot do that, please get out of my thread with this irrelevant nonsense.

No, seriously. You're pointing fingers that can be pointed right back at you.

This ludicrous comparison didn't work the last three times Jane Doe brought it up. What on earth makes you think that because you are now bringing it up in this thread that is not even about that suddenly it's going to be like some kind of silver bullet that will shut down discussions about Mormonism that you view as negative?

On the topic of the actual video, do you have anything to say about the content of the comparisons made between Scientology, an openly Gnostic new-age cult, and the Mormon religion?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

No, thank you. As we've discussed previously, this is not possible for me, though I appreciate the offer. Maybe ArmenianJohn could visit, though. I believe he's in NY or thereabouts if there is a temple around that area that he could go to. I'd be interested to know what he would find there. I'm assuming that open house events don't actually feature the Mormon temple ritual (the one that's not open to anyone but Mormons with a temple recommend), do they?

I went to the Manhattan Temple to go to an endowment session and they didn't let me in, they told me it's "private", I said "Secret?" and they said, "Yes, that too" and then they asked me to leave.

No matter what some people tell you, you can't just go whenever you want to any of their temples, they will not let you in and they will kick you out.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. Not surprising, given the attitude of Mormons regarding this issue. So I guess an open house would just be to show off the building and kinda meet the neighbors, then? (And of course to encourage people to become Mormon so that they can one day come in when it's not an open house, assuming they can get a temple recommend.)

 

[Jane_Doe]

We do not require that anyone visit our services in order to see them and gain information about them. They're all over the internet because we put them there (also there are many places in the West where OO churches are few and far between, so this is important because often it's difficult to get to an actual church; where I live now there are no OO churches, for instance).

We are so interested in being known by the world that we even sometimes have liturgy prayed in English in Egypt for the purpose of having something to show to English-speaking people, as below where the liturgy is prayed in English from the cathedral in Sharm El Sheikh and filmed by Aghapy TV (Coptic TV channel) to be broadcast in the West:

And here is a 97 minute talk in English that explains in detail everything that happens in the liturgy:

If this is really an apt comparison, and not just a cheap shot and an immature 'I know you are, but what am I?' type of reply, then please kindly direct me to the Mormon-produced videos of your own temple ritual which are aired on TV and all over the internet and promoted openly to people of all backgrounds specifically so that they may view them without having to join the LDS and get a temple recommend, and the explanatory videos which tell anyone who watches them in detail what goes on in said ritual.

If you cannot do that, please get out of my thread with this irrelevant nonsense.



This ludicrous comparison didn't work the last three times Jane Doe brought it up. What on earth makes you think that because you are now bringing it up in this thread that is not even about that suddenly it's going to be like some kind of silver bullet that will shut down discussions about Mormonism that you view as negative?

On the topic of the actual video, do you have anything to say about the content of the comparisons made between Scientology, an openly Gnostic new-age cult, and the Mormon religion?

dzheremi, it is your Coptic members that your church keep in the dark, devoid of any real information about other beliefs. I'm sorry, but videos are in no way really going to teach anyone about any faith. To truly learn a person has to go and see. There a SO many resources to go and see. We have open chapels, open worldwide conferences, missionaries bending over backwards, fellowship activities, open houses, websites, free manuals, free religious classes for all and different background, etc.

But trying to teach a person whom refuses to see is impossible because of their choice to be blind. When people don't see each other, stereotypes run rampant and hatred so easily breeds against "those people". Loving our neighbor is so much harder when we close out eyes and refuse to see them.