LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[He is the way]

Q


One again you are superimposing the word "baptism" onto both verses. You are making a Bible to you own choosing and trying to fool others into accepting your strange renderings.

There are a lot of good people who died without being baptized. Baptism is a necessary ordinance in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. However God in His wisdom has made a way for them to receive that ordinance so that they can progress.

 

[He is the way]

This verse from 1 Peter does not mean that those trusting in God who have died are in need of baptism. What it really means is that these people who suffered on account of their faith in God, are judged by those "men of the flesh" (as opposed to spiritual men) to be foolish, but are alive in God as spiritual men, having heard the preaching of Christ's Gospel from Christ Himself, Whose Gospel is the ultimate fulfillment of all that had been hoped for by them in their faith.

Wanting to believe that this verse underscores the importance of baptism for the dead does not make it so. This verse absolutely does not do that.

There are verses that do show the importance of baptism which I have already posted. I wanted to point out that the gospel is preached to the dead. Why is the gospel preached to the dead? So they can be judged properly. Why is there baptism for the dead? So they can continue to progress.

 

[Rescued One]

In the days of Noah the wicked were not saved.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Why would anyone think that those ungodly people had not been warned?

Book of Mormon, Alma 4:5-6
“For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.”

Mormons claim to believe the Book of Mormon, but it's obvious that they only believe parts of it.

 

[He is the way]

In the days of Noah the wicked were not saved.

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Why would anyone think that those ungodly people had not been warned?

Book of Mormon, Alma 4:5-6
“For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.”

Mormons claim to believe the Book of Mormon, but it's obvious that they only believe parts of it.

Ah but you are talking about the wicked not the more righteous who have died without being baptized. Christ will be the judge of all those who inherit the kingdom of God and those who don't. His judgments will be fair perhaps more than fair since no one deserves His atoning sacrifice. Everything will be taken care of properly. Those who are baptized by proxy will also be judged fairly and receive that which they deserve.

 

[truefiction1]

There are verses that do show the importance of baptism which I have already posted. I wanted to point out that the gospel is preached to the dead. Why is the gospel preached to the dead? So they can be judged properly. Why is there baptism for the dead? So they can continue to progress.

The dead cannot be baptized by us, and to do so is a gross and unacceptable use of the sacred rite that God has given us. God is not even bound by the sacred things that He has given us to do for our own benefit (for the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath), and can let anyone He wills into the Kingdom of Heaven if they desire to be with Him in His Kingdom. This is exactly what He desires for all men (1 Timothy 2:4). We trust the dead who were unable to receive baptism prior to death to the mercy of God, because Baptism is not even a guarantee for the living to be saved, let alone the dead. God accepts a person's desire to be baptized to be as good as an actual baptism, so that all that is required for a spirit in prison who had not been baptized to receive baptism from His is their own desire to receive it. A Mormon baptizing a dead person is an affront to the sovereignty of God, Who is Love, and with Whom all things are possible. Anything beyond praying for the souls of the deceased, on our parts, reveals a depraved lack of knowledge of the Love of God, and is outright evil. So go on and keep on doing what you do, and calling it good if you want. But woe unto them that do this.

 

[He is the way]

The dead cannot be baptized by us, and to do so is a gross and unacceptable use of the sacred rite that God has given us. God is not even bound by the sacred things that He has given us to do for our own benefit (for the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath), and can let anyone He wills into the Kingdom of Heaven if they desire to be with Him in His Kingdom. This is exactly what He desires for all men (1 Timothy 2:4). We trust the dead who were unable to receive baptism prior to death to the mercy of God, because Baptism is not even a guarantee for the living to be saved, let alone the dead. God accepts a person's desire to be baptized to be as good as an actual baptism, so that all that is required for a spirit in prison who had not been baptized to receive baptism from His is their own desire to receive it. A Mormon baptizing a dead person is an affront to the sovereignty of God, Who is Love, and with Whom all things are possible. Anything beyond praying for the souls of the deceased, on our parts, reveals a depraved lack of knowledge of the Love of God, and is outright evil. So go on and keep on doing what you do, and calling it good if you want. But woe unto them that do this.

You said: "The dead cannot be baptized by us, and to do so is a gross and unacceptable use of the sacred rite that God has given us."

We don't baptize the dead either, instead we baptize for the dead by proxy.

You said: "God is not even bound by the sacred things that He has given us to do for our own benefit (for the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath), and can let anyone He wills into the Kingdom of Heaven if they desire to be with Him in His Kingdom."

God is indeed bound by His own word:

(Old Testament | Numbers 23:19)

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

(New Testament | John 3:3 - 5)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[dzheremi]

We don't baptize the dead either, instead we baptize for the dead by proxy.

Sacraments cannot be received by proxy for another person who does not receive them. If I receive the Eucharist, I am receiving it, not someone else down the street who is not even present at liturgy, and certainly not some random person I've never met whose name is read off of a list of people who died hundreds of years ago.

God is indeed bound by His own word

Then why was Moses kept out of the promised land which He had given to His people, the very people that Moses led to it by His command?

 

[BigDaddy4]

You said: "John did not have this training." Do you have a reference to back up your claim?

Matthew 3, Mark 1, John 1, and Luke 1. More specifically, Luke 1:80
And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.

You said: "Aaronic priests do not baptize as part of their duties" And again, do you have a reference to back up your claim?

PRIEST - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[He is the way]

Sacraments cannot be received by proxy for another person who does not receive them. If I receive the Eucharist, I am receiving it, not someone else down the street who is not even present at liturgy, and certainly not some random person I've never met whose name is read off of a list of people who died hundreds of years ago.



Then why was Moses kept out of the promised land which He had given to His people, the very people that Moses led to it by His command?

You said: "Sacraments cannot be received by proxy for another person who does not receive them. If I receive the Eucharist, I am receiving it, not someone else down the street who is not even present at liturgy, and certainly not some random person I've never met whose name is read off of a list of people who died hundreds of years ago."

Who said? Is Jesus' atonement for sin not valid then?

You said: "Then why was Moses kept out of the promised land which He had given to His people, the very people that Moses led to it by His command?"

It was not promised to Moses.

 

[dzheremi]

You said: "Sacraments cannot be received by proxy for another person who does not receive them. If I receive the Eucharist, I am receiving it, not someone else down the street who is not even present at liturgy, and certainly not some random person I've never met whose name is read off of a list of people who died hundreds of years ago."

Who said? Is Jesus' atonement for sin not valid then?

What? "Valid"? For one thing, read what I wrote again: "Sacraments cannot be received by proxy for another person" -- how is this even contradicted by the atonement of Christ? The atonement of Christ is FOR YOU, FOR ME, FOR EVERYONE. It is not something to be possessed of ourselves such that we can 'give' it to other people who do not receive it themselves.

If I go to confession and receive absolution of my sins, I can't go up to someone else, who is not in Church and is probably not Orthodox and maybe not even Christian, and say "Here, I received absolution, and I think you should have some (?) too, so I absolve you". I'm not a priest, I'm not in Church, that's not how absolution works, etc.

Now, substitute baptism (another sacrament) for absolution and you'll see how it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. What is received is received by the person who receives it, not by others by proxy. And yes, that very much includes Christ's atonement, or as we may put it, His death and glorious resurrection. That's what baptism is, you know? We die to the world and rise with Him. This is why in Christianity, no one is baptized for someone else. The resurrection at the Last Day will obviously include all of the people who the Mormons have 'proxy baptized', and yet they will not be judged according to what others did for them, but according to what they themselves did. (See Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6)

You can't have others live your spiritual life for you. That's not a part of Christianity.

You said: "Then why was Moses kept out of the promised land which He had given to His people, the very people that Moses led to it by His command?"

It was not promised to Moses.

Who was speaking in Numbers 14 when the dialogue concerning who would and would not enter the promised land occurred? I could be misremembering things, but I could've sworn it was the Lord and Moses.

 

[He is the way]

Matthew 3, Mark 1, John 1, and Luke 1. More specifically, Luke 1:80
And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.

PRIEST - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Still does not say how long John lived in the desert or wilderness or what God taught him.

 

[He is the way]

What? "Valid"? For one thing, read what I wrote again: "Sacraments cannot be received by proxy for another person" -- how is this even contradicted by the atonement of Christ? The atonement of Christ is FOR YOU, FOR ME, FOR EVERYONE. It is not something to be possessed of ourselves such that we can 'give' it to other people who do not receive it themselves.

If I go to confession and receive absolution of my sins, I can't go up to someone else, who is not in Church and is probably not Orthodox and maybe not even Christian, and say "Here, I received absolution, and I think you should have some (?) too, so I absolve you". I'm not a priest, I'm not in Church, that's not how absolution works, etc.

Now, substitute baptism (another sacrament) for absolution and you'll see how it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. What is received is received by the person who receives it, not by others by proxy. And yes, that very much includes Christ's atonement, or as we may put it, His death and glorious resurrection. That's what baptism is, you know? We die to the world and rise with Him. This is why in Christianity, no one is baptized for someone else. The resurrection at the Last Day will obviously include all of the people who the Mormons have 'proxy baptized', and yet they will not be judged according to what others did for them, but according to what they themselves did. (See Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6)

You can't have others live your spiritual life for you. That's not a part of Christianity.


Who was speaking in Numbers 14 when the dialogue concerning who would and would not enter the promised land occurred? I could be misremembering things, but I could've sworn it was the Lord and Moses.

You said: "that's not how absolution works" This is not about absolution. Not everyone who is baptized will have their sins remitted. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy:

(New Testament | Romans 9:15 - 16)

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Numbers 14 is not about Moses going to the promised land.

(Old Testament | Numbers 14:28 - 30)

28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "that's not how absolution works" This is not about absolution. Not everyone who is baptized will have their sins remitted. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy:

(New Testament | Romans 9:15 - 16)

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Numbers 14 is not about Moses going to the promised land.

(Old Testament | Numbers 14:28 - 30)

28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Because God alone knoweth the heart---keeping the commandments are of no value when not done out of love for God and man. Baptism is something that a living, conscious person has to do (if possible) for himself. We serve a personal God. We can not keep the commandments for someone else, either. That makes baptism for the dead of totally no value. It has to be a conscious giving of oneself to God and no one can do it for another person---except God Himself, as He applies the blood of Jesus --so if the person can not do so when He is alive and conscious, God will apply the baptism of Jesus to that person. Again, God alone knows the heart.

 

[dzheremi]

You said: "that's not how absolution works" This is not about absolution.

Baptism is not any different, in this regard. They are both sacraments of the Church, to be sought and given (or not) within it, not 'owned' by the people receiving them as though they are something that they personally control (they are participation in and with God, and none of us control God) such that they can dole them out to others at their leisure, etc.

Not everyone who is baptized will have their sins remitted.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Baptism is absolutely for the remission of sins, as is preached by the holy apostle St. Peter in Acts 2:38 -- Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive.

God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy:

(New Testament | Romans 9:15 - 16)

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This in no way contradicts my point.

Numbers 14 is not about Moses going to the promised land.

(Old Testament | Numbers 14:28 - 30)

28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Look at the part literally right before the part that you put in bold: "which I sware to make you dwell therein". Even though you're apparently fixated on Moses (as though the identity of who He is talking to is the point, rather than an example of the point!), it wouldn't need to be concerning him in particular anyway, because it's all right there: these other people, save Caleb and Joshua, will not be allowed to enter the promised land which God had swore He would make them dwell in.

In other words, Truefiction1 is correct, but you are not: God is not even bound by what He has established for our benefit, as it is entirely His prerogative to accept Who He wills and reject Who He wills. God is the absolutely sovereign ruler of everything. This is a central theological idea of Christianity.

 

[He is the way]

Baptism is not any different, in this regard. They are both sacraments of the Church, to be sought and given (or not) within it, not 'owned' by the people receiving them as though they are something that they personally control (they are participation in and with God, and none of us control God) such that they can dole them out to others at their leisure, etc.



I'm not sure what you mean here. Baptism is absolutely for the remission of sins, as is preached by the holy apostle St. Peter in Acts 2:38 -- Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive.



This in no way contradicts my point.




Look at the part literally right before the part that you put in bold: "which I sware to make you dwell therein". Even though you're apparently fixated on Moses (as though the identity of who He is talking to is the point, rather than an example of the point!), it wouldn't need to be concerning him in particular anyway, because it's all right there: these other people, save Caleb and Joshua, will not be allowed to enter the promised land which God had swore He would make them dwell in.

In other words, Truefiction1 is correct, but you are not: God is not even bound by what He has established for our benefit, as it is entirely His prerogative to accept Who He wills and reject Who He wills. God is the absolutely sovereign ruler of everything. This is a central theological idea of Christianity.

Will baptism alone free everyone from their sins:

(New Testament | Matthew 3:7 - 8)

7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

 

[dzheremi]

Will baptism alone free everyone from their sins

I'm sorry, was that a question anyone was asking?

 

[He is the way]

I'm sorry, was that a question anyone was asking?

You said: "Baptism is absolutely for the remission of sins, as is preached by the holy apostle St. Peter in Acts 2:38 -- Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive."

Receive what? The answer is the the gift of the Holy Ghost:

(New Testament | Acts 2:38)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

However the Bible agrees with me that there was baptism for the dead.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Still does not say how long John lived in the desert or wilderness or what God taught him.

You just want to fight this tooth and nail, huh? I understand. To admit otherwise would be an admission that JS was wrong. Can't have that!

What part of "he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel." do you not understand? The Gospels describe when he appeared publicly. Regardless of what God taught him during that time, John the Baptist was not an ordained priest. None of the Gospel writers said he was a priest. Zechariah (his father) didn't mention priesthood. The angel Gabriel didn't mention it. Jesus didn't mention it - he called John a prophet.

But, but, but, ... JS said he was! And that's your predicament - whom to believe. Choose wisely!

 

[He is the way]

You just want to fight this tooth and nail, huh? I understand. To admit otherwise would be an admission that JS was wrong. Can't have that!

What part of "he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel." do you not understand? The Gospels describe when he appeared publicly. Regardless of what God taught him during that time, John the Baptist was not an ordained priest. None of the Gospel writers said he was a priest. Zechariah (his father) didn't mention priesthood. The angel Gabriel didn't mention it. Jesus didn't mention it - he called John a prophet.

But, but, but, ... JS said he was! And that's your predicament - whom to believe. Choose wisely!

I believe that John the baptist had authority from heaven. That means that he had priesthood authority just as Jesus Christ had authority from heaven and that was also priesthood authority. John's father also had priesthood authority and his mother had a lineage of priesthood authority.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I believe that John the baptist had authority from heaven. That means that he had priesthood authority just as Jesus Christ had authority from heaven and that was also priesthood authority. John's father also had priesthood authority and his mother had a lineage of priesthood authority.

You can believe what you want, but it is not based on the truth - Biblical or historical. You keep conflating authority from heaven and priesthood authority. They are not the same. John the Baptist did not have the Aaronic Priesthood.