LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[dzheremi]

You said: "Baptism is absolutely for the remission of sins, as is preached by the holy apostle St. Peter in Acts 2:38 -- Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive."

Receive what? The answer is the the gift of the Holy Ghost:

(New Testament | Acts 2:38)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

However the Bible agrees with me that there was baptism for the dead.

Again, this has nothing to do with anything. The verse says "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" to prove the point that this is what baptism is for (since you had said that not everyone who is baptized will have their sins remitted; again, there are a few different ways that could be taken, but they don't change the fact of how and why we baptize), and you respond with "Receive what?"

Who was talking about that?!

It is very difficult to have a conversation with you when you keep attempting to change the topic.

And no, the Bible does not agree with you that there was baptism for the dead. This is not something that the Church received, and the written evidence we have from the early Church fathers that describes what practices were retained and why is decidedly against this practice. Mormon idiosyncratic readings of individual Bible verses are just that; they aren't proof that "the Bible agrees with you" any more than anyone else's understanding of the same verses is proof that the Bible agrees with them. That's the entire point of looking to the preserved witness of the early Church in the first place. Anyone can read anything to mean anything, but if the weight of historical evidence is against a certain reading, then we can safely dismiss it as being a motivated fabrication or error, as is the case with the Mormon reading of scripture to support their heretical 'baptism for the dead' idea and practice.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I believe that John the baptist had authority from heaven. That means that he had priesthood authority just as Jesus Christ had authority from heaven and that was also priesthood authority. John's father also had priesthood authority and his mother had a lineage of priesthood authority.

Ponder this verse in relation to the claim that John the Baptist visited JS.

'Do not look for advice from people who get messages from those who have died. Do not go to people who talk to the spirits of the dead. If you do, they will make you "unclean." I am the LORD your God' (Leviticus 19:31)

 

[He is the way]

Ponder this verse in relation to the claim that John the Baptist visited JS.

'Do not look for advice from people who get messages from those who have died. Do not go to people who talk to the spirits of the dead. If you do, they will make you "unclean." I am the LORD your God' (Leviticus 19:31)

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:31)

31 ¶ Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Yes it was bad to rely on soothsayers (fortune tellers) and wizards (magicians), however Paul, relied on the words of Jesus Christ who was dead. Moses talked to a burning bush which was the Lord who had not yet been born. Mary and Joseph listened to angels and dreams. Abraham was visited by angels. Jesus appeared to His apostles after His death. Not all heavenly messengers are evil.

 

[mmksparbud]

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:31)

31 ¶ Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Yes it was bad to rely on soothsayers (fortune tellers) and wizards (magicians), however Paul, relied on the words of Jesus Christ who was dead. Moses talked to a burning bush which was the Lord who had not yet been born. Mary and Joseph listened to angels and dreams. Abraham was visited by angels. Jesus appeared to His apostles after His death. Not all heavenly messengers are evil.

Jesus Christ did not stay dead---He was resurrected in this world before He ascended. Jesus Christ was not dead when He talked to Abraham, He did not have to be born at all---He chose to be, for our salvation. Angels have never died. Not one single thing you have posted is in any way, shape or form the same thing as taking messages from those that have died in this world and remained dead in this world.
No not all heavenly messages are evil. That is why we are to test them---which JS never did. He got his
instructions from evil spirits---and from the dead. They are not of God--JS was not a prophet of God. It is obvious to all but LDS.

 

[He is the way]

Jesus Christ did not stay dead---He was resurrected in this world before He ascended. Jesus Christ was not dead when He talked to Abraham, He did not have to be born at all---He chose to be, for our salvation. Angels have never died. Not one single thing you have posted is in any way, shape or form the same thing as taking messages from those that have died in this world and remained dead in this world.
No not all heavenly messages are evil. That is why we are to test them---which JS never did. He got his
instructions from evil spirits---and from the dead. They are not of God--JS was not a prophet of God. It is obvious to all but LDS.

It is obvious that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God by those who knew him and because the Book of Mormon must be from God.

 

[dzheremi]

It is obvious that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God by those who knew him and because the Book of Mormon must be from God.

Is that the case? Then please tell us: Why must the BOM be from God?

And I don't understand how people knowing Joseph somehow makes it 'obvious' that he is a prophet. Can you please explain that, too? Thank you.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is obvious that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God by those who knew him and because the Book of Mormon must be from God.

Nobody knew the real JS except God. It is obvious to everryone but the LDS that he was not a prophet of God and the things he wrote are not of God. God doesn't want us to get our information from dead people---He says we are not to talk with them. The only dead in heaven who could talk to us are Moses, Enoch and Elijah and they do not talk to us. Even Moses and Elijah when they appeared to Jesus did not talk to the diciples, it was to Jesus only. When God uses anyone to speak to us---it is angles---they are His messengers and we are to be very careful and test those spirits to make sure they are of God---which JS did not do.

 

[BigDaddy4]

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:31)

31 ¶ Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Yes it was bad to rely on soothsayers (fortune tellers) and wizards (magicians), however Paul, relied on the words of Jesus Christ who was dead. Moses talked to a burning bush which was the Lord who had not yet been born. Mary and Joseph listened to angels and dreams. Abraham was visited by angels. Jesus appeared to His apostles after His death. Not all heavenly messengers are evil.

The irony here is you are trying to defend someone who is in this category - JS was a treasure hunter. The evidence is overwhelming that he was a false prophet. Some day I hope you will realize it before it's too late.

And by the way... GOD'S NOT DEAD!

 

[He is the way]

Is that the case? Then please tell us: Why must the BOM be from God?

And I don't understand how people knowing Joseph somehow makes it 'obvious' that he is a prophet. Can you please explain that, too? Thank you.

You said: "Then please tell us: Why must the BOM be from God?"

Again? Well there are many reasons. The first being that Satan is not divided against himself, if he is how can his kingdom stand? Second it would be impossible for anyone to dictate such a book of scripture as the Book of Mormon in such a short time (65 days) without using any written material to help them unless they had the help of God. No one except Joseph Smith has or will ever be able to do such a work without the help of God. Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon at the early age of 24. The Book of Mormon contains many truths not found in the Bible. More and more evidence is coming forth to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon:

Five Compelling Archeological Evidences For the Book of Mormon

3 Examples of Evidence That Support the Book of Mormon | LDS Living

Archaeological Evidence and the Book of Mormon - FairMormon

Mounting Evidence for the Book of Mormon

 

[He is the way]

The irony here is you are trying to defend someone who is in this category - JS was a treasure hunter. The evidence is overwhelming that he was a false prophet. Some day I hope you will realize it before it's too late.

And by the way... GOD'S NOT DEAD!

The evidence is overwhelming that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and by the way Jesus Christ WAS dead for three days. The key word here is WAS. Please pay attention.

 

[mmksparbud]

• You said: "Then please tell us: Why must the BOM be from God?"
  
  Again? Well there are many reasons. The first being that Satan is not divided against himself, if he is how can his kingdom stand? Second it would be impossible for anyone to dictate such a book of scripture as the Book of Mormon in such a short time (65 days) without using any written material to help them unless they had the help of God. No one except Joseph Smith has or will ever be able to do such a work without the help of God. Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon at the early age of 24. The Book of Mormon contains many truths not found in the Bible. More and more evidence is coming forth to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon:
  
  Five Compelling Archeological Evidences For the Book of Mormon
  
  3 Examples of Evidence That Support the Book of Mormon | LDS Living
  
  Archaeological Evidence and the Book of Mormon - FairMormon
  
  Mounting Evidence for the Book of Mormon

  
  Satan's end is always to destroy the word of God and man with it, to mar the character of God. With JS---he hit pay dirt for he can do all. He made the word of God to be of none effect---unless it agrees with what JS says, and what is there you misinterpret and twist to try and make what JS says to be the truth, therefore, His word is not the word of God---It is JS that tells the truth, not God. With the believes he has thrust forth---it will mean the destruction of those who believe in this other Father, Son and Holy Ghost for they are not the bible Godhead.
• Hamade the truth of who God is not valid because he says that men have become God's themselves with wives who populate other planets and where a Son also has to die, and that the Father had a Father and He had a Father and so on---it all means there are many, many Gods out there, where the bible says there is only One God and none existed before Him or after Him. That verse alone destroys the concept that JS is a true prophet.
• JS mars creation itself with the concept that only with the fall came man's ability to procreate, that Satan has done us a favor with the Fall! It makes God totally unable to have His word obeyed when He said to be fruitful and multiply, JS made Him an ineffectual God. The bible says His word is a creative force and what He says is. He spoke a world into existence and you make Him ineffectual again by saying that He did not create from nothing, but only moved existing matter around. You further diminish God by saying we existed before being born, that we are the product of this God and one of His wives and that God did not create life in Adam and Eve or give them the power to truly procreate for God only made empty shells for these preexisting beings to possess. JS has diminished the greatness, the power of the One God of this Universe in order elevate h9imself and man, instead of elevating God.

It doesn't matter if they find archeological evidence for something that JS has said---bottom line, HE GOES AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD AND IS THEREFORE A FALSE PROPHET. Satan always incorporates a little truth to his lies---makes it easier to believe.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The evidence is overwhelming that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and by the way Jesus Christ WAS dead for three days. The key word here is WAS. Please pay attention.

So when Jesus was dead, did he not exist in any form? IOW, did Jesus cease to exist as God?

Please pay attention.

Cute.

 

[He is the way]

• 
  
  Satan's end is always to destroy the word of God and man with it, to mar the character of God. With JS---he hit pay dirt for he can do all. He made the word of God to be of none effect---unless it agrees with what JS says, and what is there you misinterpret and twist to try and make what JS says to be the truth, therefore, His word is not the word of God---It is JS that tells the truth, not God. With the believes he has thrust forth---it will mean the destruction of those who believe in this other Father, Son and Holy Ghost for they are not the bible Godhead.
• Hamade the truth of who God is not valid because he says that men have become God's themselves with wives who populate other planets and where a Son also has to die, and that the Father had a Father and He had a Father and so on---it all means there are many, many Gods out there, where the bible says there is only One God and none existed before Him or after Him. That verse alone destroys the concept that JS is a true prophet.
• JS mars creation itself with the concept that only with the fall came man's ability to procreate, that Satan has done us a favor with the Fall! It makes God totally unable to have His word obeyed when He said to be fruitful and multiply, JS made Him an ineffectual God. The bible says His word is a creative force and what He says is. He spoke a world into existence and you make Him ineffectual again by saying that He did not create from nothing, but only moved existing matter around. You further diminish God by saying we existed before being born, that we are the product of this God and one of His wives and that God did not create life in Adam and Eve or give them the power to truly procreate for God only made empty shells for these preexisting beings to possess. JS has diminished the greatness, the power of the One God of this Universe in order elevate h9imself and man, instead of elevating God.

It doesn't matter if they find archeological evidence for something that JS has said---bottom line, HE GOES AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD AND IS THEREFORE A FALSE PROPHET. Satan always incorporates a little truth to his lies---makes it easier to believe.

God is more powerful than that He can make man equal to Himself because we are the sons and daughters of God. Please do not cling to the un-Biblical words and thoughts of man. God the Father is our God, Jesus Christ is our brother. If the universe was nothing to to begin with God would not exist either. However God does exist so there was never a time when nothing existed.

 

[mmksparbud]

God is more powerful than that He can make man equal to Himself because we are the sons and daughters of God. Please do not cling to the un-Biblical words and thoughts of man. God the Father is our God, Jesus Christ is our brother. If the universe was nothing to to begin with God would not exist either. However God does exist so there was never a time when nothing existed.

Unbiblical? The LDS are totally unbiblical---they believe in the words of JS---not the bible. And they interpret according to JS, not the Hoy Spirit or the language it was originally written in. They've made up their own meanings which have noth8ing t9o do with the word o9f God. You're argument is without merit-God always existed. He is not nothing, everything else---HE CREATED FROM NOTHING!

 

[He is the way]

So when Jesus was dead, did he not exist in any form? IOW, did Jesus cease to exist as God?
Cute.

Yes, His spirit was still alive and so was Adam's spirit still alive although God said that he would surly die. Are you saying that Jesus did not die or as the Bible says give up the ghost?:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:22 - 29)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

 

[He is the way]

Unbiblical? The LDS are totally unbiblical---they believe in the words of JS---not the bible. And they interpret according to JS, not the Hoy Spirit or the language it was originally written in. They've made up their own meanings which have noth8ing t9o do with the word o9f God. You're argument is without merit-God always existed. He is not nothing, everything else---HE CREATED FROM NOTHING!

Joseph Smith got the words directly from God. The Bible states:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 26:10)

10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.

 

[mmksparbud]

Joseph Smith got the words directly from God. The Bible states:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 26:10)

10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.

JS never got anything from God. God does not put Himself down as JS has done with all his foolish theories. And if you are not sure of how he does that, read post #671 again for just a few.

 

[He is the way]

JS never got anything from God. God does not put Himself down as JS has done with all his foolish theories. And if you are not sure of how he does that, read post #671 again for just a few.

Satan is not divided against himself. If he was his kingdom would not stand.

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:12 - 19)

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

 

[mmksparbud]

Satan is not divided against himself. If he was his kingdom would not stand.

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:12 - 19)

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

No, he isn't. That's why he loves JS. He did everything in post #671---keep reading it till you understand the truth of what JS has done.

 

[He is the way]

No, he isn't. That's why he loves JS. He did everything in post #671---keep reading it till you understand the truth of what JS has done.

God revealed many things to Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul etc in the new testament. He revealed more things to Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great price. These things do not contradict the Bible although they may contradict what you were taught.