LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[He is the way]

Apparently only so long as those others are LDS. But it is only human nature---whomever is in power , or is the majority, belongs there, others do not. Thus, if a town, or city is LDS--they are no different than when others are the majority. Catholics persecuted Protestants, when Protestants became the majority, they persecuted the Catholics.

Persecution is wrong no mater who is doing it. LOVE is the right way. We are not taught to persecute others, we are taught to LOVE them.

 

[He is the way]

Paul is only one member of the whole body of the Church, albeit a most highly influential one. Paul did not say that the Church "should" baptize the dead. He merely made a reference to a practice that he was aware of. He also wrote (if we attribute the authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews to Paul) that there is no forgiveness of sins after Baptism. Yet the Church receives both baptized sinners and apostates back into Communion if they repent, and does not refuse them on the basis of merely one person's ideas on the matter. The Church as a whole alone has the authority to determine what is good and what is needful unto salvation, not any single individual member, even if they are an Apostle, or one of the Apostle's successors; a bishop. So Paul was not right and the Church, of which he is a member, wrong.

God is NOT unfair. That is why He sent His Son to atone for the sins of man. He has also made it possible for everyone to be baptized by proxy much the same as the proxy atonement for sin. Why would anyone believe that baptism for the dead is an evil or unnecessary practice? Millions, perhaps billions of people have died who did not have the opportunity to be baptized. God has not forgotten them.

 

[dzheremi]

Persecution is wrong no mater who is doing it. LOVE is the right way. We are not taught to persecute others, we are taught to LOVE them.

...and that they still need to embrace the Mormon religion, complete with its gnostic practices and beliefs and its horrendously false god(s).

If these things are what is right, you should tell the truth openly and not hide behind a nauseating abuse of the concept of love and the caps lock button.

 

[He is the way]

...and that they still need to embrace the Mormon religion, complete with its gnostic practices and beliefs and its horrendously false god(s).

If these things are what is right, you should tell the truth openly and not hide behind a nauseating abuse of the concept of love and the caps lock button.

If something should be hidden it will hidden it as was in the past:

(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

 

[Ironhold]

For the posters here -

If God himself came down from Heaven, gave you a sign so unmistakable that you cannot deny it is God, and told you that you needed to join the LDS faith, how would you respond?

 

[Rescued One]

Aaaanyway...back to Mormonism...

It seems that places where Mormons are in the majority suffer from the same narrow-mindedness and prejudice that we often see promoted by certain Mormon posters here on CF as emblematic of the way that Christians treat Mormons in the wider world.

It's a bit on the rough side, production-wise, but I suggest that everyone watch this clip of interviews with non-Mormons in a Mormon-majority town, including Muslim, Baptist, and Catholic input. I find the Muslim woman's observation during the first of her two interview clips to be very interesting.

That Mormons would not be as understanding when they are in the majority as they are as a tiny minority is hardly surprising, but it does call into question how they can frame their relation to others as they do (that others have not found Christ, that others are mean, etc.), particularly since when you ask those others they say that they would welcome Mormons to their own places of worship and so on.

Yet it would seem, again, that once they are back safely among their own they don't much care for other people's churches or religions:

It seems to me that they might do much better if they would just state that outright to other people (e.g., "We think you should become Mormon because you are not in the right religion, and never will be unless you become Mormon"), in the same way that Christians have no trouble drawing theological, ecclesiological, etc. lines in the sand even between one another, as we can see all over this website. The current push to 'nice' their way into being considered Christians may work with people for whom Christianity is 100% 'social gospel' pietism and 0% actual gospel and actual doctrinal stances on things, but does not work on anyone who has even the smallest amount of awareness that you can't simply fashion a Frankenstein's religion out of rejiggered Biblical personages peppered throughout your 19th century Bible fan fiction and be actually considered a(ny) type of Christianity any more than your average counterfeiter can plausibly claim to run the U.S. Mint.

Mormons are super friendly to visitors each Sunday or to someone who has invited the missionaries to teach them. They worship each Sunday in their chapels (not temples). Being a Mormon without a temple recommend stands in the way of a close friendship with the Mormons in your ward (parish). It's similar to elite versus non-elite.

My friend from a distant state went to BYU. She was a convert but was not treated kindly and transferred to the University of Utah. Then she left their church and became Eastern Orthodox.

 

[mmksparbud]

For the posters here -

If God himself came down from Heaven, gave you a sign so unmistakable that you cannot deny it is God, and told you that you needed to join the LDS faith, how would you respond?

What sign would that be? It says to not trust all the spirits but to test them. I would demand prove that this is of God.
Biggest prove is---"to the law and to the testimony"---does what the LDS teach reflect what has been stated by God in His word? No? Then No! Is my answer! You can not go against the word of God and be from God! The Father has no Father, the Son is His only Son, the Son has no grandfather---There is no sign that can be given that can override the fact that the writings are in opposition to the word of God. The very fact that your prophet says the word of God has been corrupted and only they have the most accurate interpretation is a red flag. To destroy ones faith in prevailing authority is the 1st thing that any cult does to gain the confidence of their prey. Gangs will tell recruits how horrible their parents are and they are their only friends and family now. They drive a wedge between parents and child. A cult does the same thing---the bible is not really the truth, we have the truth, we'll explain what it really says, believe us, not it. They come between the parent (God) and the child (us).


To have seen this would be a great sign---but do you believe it?---NO!

2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
They may appear to raise the dead---if they go against the word of God---it's not real! I had a friend who was being visited by her dead husband. She so wanted to believe it was real. She read where the bible says the dead know not anything and do not come back----so, next time he showed up she said, "Get thee behind me Satan." and turned her back. He never showed again. She put her faith in what God said, not in what she saw or wanted to believe.
Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
Job 7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

 

[dzheremi]

For the posters here -

If God himself came down from Heaven, gave you a sign so unmistakable that you cannot deny it is God, and told you that you needed to join the LDS faith, how would you respond?

I would follow the scriptures and reject an apparition bearing a false gospel. It is better to reject an angel than to accept a demon unawares.

 

[He is the way]

Mormons are super friendly to visitors each Sunday or to someone who has invited the missionaries to teach them. They worship each Sunday in their chapels (not temples). Being a Mormon without a temple recommend stands in the way of a close friendship with the Mormons in your ward (parish). It's similar to elite versus non-elite.

My friend from a distant state went to BYU. She was a convert but was not treated kindly and transferred to the University of Utah. Then she left their church and became Eastern Orthodox.

You said: "Being a Mormon without a temple recommend stands in the way of a close friendship with the Mormons in your ward"

That is not true, for one thing other members do not know who has a recommend and who does not. If they shun other members they are not living the teachings that they were taught. No one is perfect, but the doctrine of LOVE is correct.

 

[dzheremi]

If something should be hidden it will hidden it as was in the past:

(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

So how do we know about it, then? Obviously the authors of the holy scriptures saw fit to include this entire episode, so that everyone can know all about it.

Almost like it's not hidden.

 

[He is the way]

So how do we know about it, then? Obviously the authors of the holy scriptures saw fit to include this entire episode, so that everyone can know all about it.

Almost like it's not hidden.

It was hidden for a period of time, we obviously don't know everything else that was hidden. Jesus did say:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:2)

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

[truefiction1]

God is NOT unfair. That is why He sent His Son to atone for the sins of man. He has also made it possible for everyone to be baptized by proxy much the same as the proxy atonement for sin. Why would anyone believe that baptism for the dead is an evil or unnecessary practice? Millions, perhaps billions of people have died who did not have the opportunity to be baptized. God has not forgotten them.

God does not need the services of Mormons to receive anyone He wills into His Kingdom, even the unbaptized. We don't baptize the dead, precisely because we do trust in God's Love for all people who He has called into existence. God is not dependent upon us for what He ultimately does in His unfathomable mercy. For this reason, your argument is pointless to me.

 

[truefiction1]

For the posters here -

If God himself came down from Heaven, gave you a sign so unmistakable that you cannot deny it is God, and told you that you needed to join the LDS faith, how would you respond?

It would be wise to err on the side of caution and assume that the apparition claiming to be God is an evil impostor, come to lead astray and corrupt, and also to assert that we are not worthy to receive such visions or personal visits of this sort from God, or even from an angel. God speaks to us all in His Word, the holy Scriptures. It's mostly stupid to think that he would directly speak to any of us, since we already have His inspired, sacred writings.

Still, I would not be truthful if I didn't admit that I have been blessed to have personally experienced several things which were unmistakable indicators of God's presence and activity in my own walk of faith. My God is thus plainly telling me where I ought to be going, and It's definitely not to join any of the cults that have appeared over the last few hundred years.

 

[truefiction1]

God is NOT unfair. That is why He sent His Son to atone for the sins of man. He has also made it possible for everyone to be baptized by proxy much the same as the proxy atonement for sin. Why would anyone believe that baptism for the dead is an evil or unnecessary practice? Millions, perhaps billions of people have died who did not have the opportunity to be baptized. God has not forgotten them.

Furthermore, Baptism is for the whole man: body and soul, together. It is for this reason that the ritual is with both water (to restore anew the physical body of man) and the Holy Spirit (to restore anew the spiritual part of man, or the soul). Death is the separation of a human body and soul. It is for this reason that Baptism is for the benefit of those whose bodies and souls are still together, and is not beneficial for someone whose body and soul have already been rent in two and separated. The whole man no longer exists after death, and will not exist as a whole man until the resurrection of all the dead.

But God has His own way of baptizing a person, even if He uses their own death for this purpose. Take, for example, those twenty Coptic Orthodox Christian men who were abducted by a militant Islamic group a few years ago. One of their Muslim captors was so moved and convinced by the resolve of the Christians being held captive to confess Jesus Christ as their only Lord and Savior, that he joined them, saying "There God is my God too", and he readily endured the death by beheading that took the other Christian martyrs into paradise. Do you think that any of us would even think for a moment that God did not accept this Muslim, who converted to believing in Christ in his heart and confessed Him with his tongue, was not personally baptized by God in his own blood, in the very moment of his death? Perish the thought! The man is in paradise with God now, along with those who gave their lives alongside of him.

 

[He is the way]

God does not need the services of Mormons to receive anyone He wills into His Kingdom, even the unbaptized. We don't baptize the dead, precisely because we do trust in God's Love for all people who He has called into existence. God is not dependent upon us for what He ultimately does in His unfathomable mercy. For this reason, your argument is pointless to me.

(New Testament | John 3:3 - 7)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 5)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 

[He is the way]

Furthermore, Baptism is for the whole man: body and soul, together. It is for this reason that the ritual is with both water (to restore anew the physical body of man) and the Holy Spirit (to restore anew the spiritual part of man, or the soul). Death is the separation of a human body and soul. It is for this reason that Baptism is for the benefit of those whose bodies and souls are still together, and is not beneficial for someone whose body and soul have already been rent in two and separated. The whole man no longer exists after death, and will not exist as a whole man until the resurrection of all the dead.

But God has His own way of baptizing a person, even if He uses their own death for this purpose. Take, for example, those twenty Coptic Orthodox Christian men who were abducted by a militant Islamic group a few years ago. One of their Muslim captors was so moved and convinced by the resolve of the Christians being held captive to confess Jesus Christ as their only Lord and Savior, that he joined them, saying "There God is my God too", and he readily endured the death by beheading that took the other Christian martyrs into paradise. Do you think that any of us would even think for a moment that God did not accept this Muslim, who converted to believing in Christ in his heart and confessed Him with his tongue, was not personally baptized by God in his own blood, in the very moment of his death? Perish the thought! The man is in paradise with God now, along with those who gave their lives alongside of him.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:12 - 14)

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:26 - 29)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

 

[truefiction1]

(New Testament | John 3:3 - 7)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 5)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This isn't saying anything we don't already know and believe. But God does not depend on any of us. God's commands and rituals are not done for God's sake, but everything is for our sake; even our service to God benefits us, not God. God needs nothing. Baptism is done for the sake of those receiving it. It's not some magic ritual requirement that if not fulfilled God will not let the person not receiving it receive the Kingdom of God.

 

[truefiction1]

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:12 - 14)

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:26 - 29)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Yes, we too believe in the resurrection of the body. And as I already stated, Paul mentioned a practice that he had become aware of, but he did not say that it was something that must be, or even ought to be done. He also speculated whether their could be any forgiveness of sins committed after one's baptism, and seemed to be saying that their could be none. So if you commit any intentional sin after you've been baptized, you might as well just eat, drink, and be merry, because you're going to hell forever after this life.

 

[BigDaddy4]

For the posters here -

If God himself came down from Heaven, gave you a sign so unmistakable that you cannot deny it is God, and told you that you needed to join the LDS faith, how would you respond?

That would be a contradiction. Remember, Satan is great at imitating, not creating. We would need to test this "unmistakeable" sign, as the Bible says.

For every God/Jesus/angelic being from heaven encounter that I can think of in the Bible, the encounteree knew it was God, Jesus, or an angel from God.

Contrast that with JS's so-called "encounter" as described in Joseph Smith - History 1:15-17 where it was described as "thick darkness", "doomed to sudden destruction", "the power of this enemy", etc. These "beings" stood in the air above him, indicating a position of power.

No Biblical encounter with any heavenly being I can think of describes the heavenly encounters this way.

JS did not test these spirits, nor the later encounters with Moroni. Why would a angel need to visit someone three times in one night, repeating the same message? Really odd. I don't know how you guys seriously believe this stuff!

 

[He is the way]

This isn't saying anything we don't already know and believe. But God does not depend on any of us. God's commands and rituals are not done for God's sake, but everything is for our sake; even our service to God benefits us, not God. God needs nothing. Baptism is done for the sake of those receiving it. It's not some magic ritual requirement that if not fulfilled God will not let the person not receiving it receive the Kingdom of God.

Baptism is a NECESSARY REQUIRED ordinance. God does not change His mind. He does however make baptism available to everyone through proxy baptism for the dead as mentioned in the Bible. There are millions of people waiting for this ordinance to be performed on their behalf so they can continue their progress. God has not changed His mind about this ordinance or about how it is to be performed.