LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[mmksparbud]

If Jesus' baptism covers everyone, why are we commanded to be baptized? Do you believe that we are to do nothing because Jesus did everything for us?

It is a public declaration of our commitment to Christ. It represents dying to sin and living unto Christ. It should be done whenever possible, but, as with the thief, it is not always possible.

 

[He is the way]

It is a public declaration of our commitment to Christ. It represents dying to sin and living unto Christ. It should be done whenever possible, but, as with the thief, it is not always possible.

The thief went to Paradise, not the kingdom of God. Jesus was not fooling when He said:

(New Testament | John 3:3)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[mmksparbud]

The thief went to Paradise, not the kingdom of God. Jesus was not fooling when He said:

(New Testament | John 3:3)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Paradise is in the presence of God. It was also the Garden of Eden. Paradise and heaven are used interchangeably. And Jesus did not go to His Father until after He saw Mary. And no, Jesus wasn't kidding. |We are born again when we accept Jesus as our Savior. Baptism is an outward expression of that---if it can be done. There is no baptism of anyone after death. There is not one single example of one single dead person being baptized in the entire bible.

 

[truefiction1]

The thief went to Paradise, not the kingdom of God. Jesus was not fooling when He said:

(New Testament | John 3:3)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Incorrect. Where Christ is, there is Christ's Kingdom also. Since the thief was going to be with Christ, he was going to be in Christ's Kingdom, by default. I have already explained to you that the Kingdom of Heaven is the bless-ed spiritual state of being in Communion with God, Who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Either the thief was going to be in Communion with God after he died, or else he was not going to be in Communion with God, which would mean that he would be spiritually separated from God, which is not paradise: that is what is often called "hell".

 

[Jamesone5]

The thief went to Paradise, not the kingdom of God. Jesus was not fooling when He said:

(New Testament | John 3:3)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

It says a man not his spirit that should be born again.

I have some experience with this baptism for the dead in the Mormon Church, as I was LDS for the first 4o years of my life. My deceased wife was baptized by proxy and when my son died a few years later I was asked if they could do a proxy baptism for him after I left the Church. I gave the Mormons a very resounding "no", but I have a strange feeling they did it anyway, because Mormon beliefs say all should be baptized by their silly ritual.

Many non-Mormons are also having their ancestors baptized by proxy as well but they certainly are not going to notify you descendants. I f they find a name though their huge genealogy facility, they baptize for that long-dead individual, irregardles of their beliefs when they were living.

It's like God seems to need them and their so-called ordinances to take care of His Supposed requirements on earth. In this scenario, millions of sprits are awaiting for some nice Mormon to do a proxy baptism for them as well. God just cannot complete their salvation without Members of their church taking care of that baptismal after they have died.

It has to do with the claim of Only True Church, here on earth--that Mormons are taught to believe in. It really promotes a feeling or arrogance that the SL CIty Mormons are given the power to have God's ordinance carried out by only their church.

 

[He is the way]

Paradise is in the presence of God. It was also the Garden of Eden. Paradise and heaven are used interchangeably. And Jesus did not go to His Father until after He saw Mary. And no, Jesus wasn't kidding. |We are born again when we accept Jesus as our Savior. Baptism is an outward expression of that---if it can be done. There is no baptism of anyone after death. There is not one single example of one single dead person being baptized in the entire bible.

Dead bodies are not baptized, living people are baptized for those who did not receive that ordinance while they were alive on the earth. The proper way to ne baptized is mentioned in the Bible:

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 6)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

(New Testament | Mark 1:7 - 10)

7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

 

[He is the way]

Incorrect. Where Christ is, there is Christ's Kingdom also. Since the thief was going to be with Christ, he was going to be in Christ's Kingdom, by default. I have already explained to you that the Kingdom of Heaven is the bless-ed spiritual state of being in Communion with God, Who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Either the thief was going to be in Communion with God after he died, or else he was not going to be in Communion with God, which would mean that he would be spiritually separated from God, which is not paradise: that is what is often called "hell".

This earth, where Jesus Christ lived, is not the kingdom of God:

(New Testament | John 18:36)

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Neither is the spirit world the kingdom of God.

 

[He is the way]

It says a man not his spirit that should be born again.

I have some experience with this baptism for the dead in the Mormon Church, as I was LDS for the first 4o years of my life. My deceased wife was baptized by proxy and when my son died a few years later I was asked if they could do a proxy baptism for him after I left the Church. I gave the Mormons a very resounding "no", but I have a strange feeling they did it anyway, because Mormon beliefs say all should be baptized by their silly ritual.

Many non-Mormons are also having their ancestors baptized by proxy as well but they certainly are not going to notify you descendants. I f they find a name though their huge genealogy facility, they baptize for that long-dead individual, irregardles of their beliefs when they were living.

It's like God seems to need them and their so-called ordinances to take care of His Supposed requirements on earth. In this scenario, millions of sprits are awaiting for some nice Mormon to do a proxy baptism for them as well. God just cannot complete their salvation without Members of their church taking care of that baptismal after they have died.

It has to do with the claim of Only True Church, here on earth--that Mormons are taught to believe in. It really promotes a feeling or arrogance that the SL CIty Mormons are given the power to have God's ordinance carried out by only their church.

Baptism is not a silly ritual. Jesus Christ was baptized by John the baptist to fulfill all righteousness even though He had not sinned. Baptism is an essential ordinance which is necessary in order to see the kingdom of God. When the proxy ordinance is performed by an authorized person it can be accepted or rejected by the person for whom it is done. God gives everyone free will.

 

[Jamesone5]

This earth, where Jesus Christ lived, is not the kingdom of God:

(New Testament | John 18:36)

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Neither is the spirit world the kingdom of God.

Oh?????

Christ Himself disagrees as to the kingdom of God and where it exists or can exist:

Luke 17:21
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.

But then you have to figure out what He meant to justify the two verses

 

[Jamesone5]

Baptism is not a silly ritual. Jesus Christ was baptized by John the baptist to fulfill all righteousness even though He had not sinned. Baptism is an essential ordinance which is necessary in order to see the kingdom of God. When the proxy ordinance is performed by an authorized person it can be accepted or rejected by the person for whom it is done. God gives everyone free will.

Come now--your Church with it's claim to be the ONLY true Church is the ONE with the sole claim of that ordinance.
Why would a sprit reject it in heaven, if it be true?

You free will or Agency leaves when you die and then are judged.

Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


the things done in the body are what we are judged upon.
​

I notice that the other things I said in my first post you did not dispute.

 

[He is the way]

Come now--your Church with it's claim to be the ONLY true Church is the ONE with the sole claim of that ordinance.
Why would a sprit reject it in heaven, if it be true?

You free will or Agency leaves when you die and then are judged.

Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


the things done in the body are what we are judged upon.
​

I notice that the other things I said in my first post you did not dispute.

John the baptist had the authority to baptize. He gave that authority to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. That authority has been passed down by those in authority to do so. We all have free will but there are consequences to the choices we make. As you quoted:

Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[Jamesone5]

John the baptist had the authority to baptize. He gave that authority to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. That authority has been passed down by those in authority to do so. We all have free will but there are consequences to the choices we make. As you quoted:

Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

So then---the proxy baptism is effectively a joke?
You agreed with what is done in the body---even quoted the very same verse back to me.

 

[dzheremi]

With regard to authority supposedly given to Joseph Smith by St. John the Baptist: what makes Mormons think that authority possessed by any individual is theirs to be given to anyone as though they personally possess it of themselves in the first place? Authority is vested in the Church itself (e.g., Matthew 18:15-17), exercised by the power of God, and those who try to 'transfer' it out of that context have been condemned for as far back as anyone can trace conflicts within the Church, as when St. Paul withstood St. Peter to his face over the latter's acceptance of Judaizing heresy (they were both called of God, but St. Peter even personally knew Christ before His death, resurrection, and ascension, so if anyone was going to 'pull rank', so to speak, then that confrontation should've gone the other way, yet it didn't; hmm...), or a little while later (c. 140s), when Marcion of Sinope started preaching against the God of the OT, and even went so far as to create his own Biblical canon to support his weird ideas, and the Church -- rather than treating it as a matter of a baptized, believing member (which he had been before he went off the rails) taking the legitimacy that supposedly conferred upon him and doing his own thing -- took up a collection to give him back all the money he had given to the Church up to that point (he was a very rich ship builder and had greatly supported the Church financially), gave him his money, and told him to get out and not come back.

You don't get to start a new religion or a 'restored' religion on the grounds that you are personally imbued with authority from someone else who got it in a different set of circumstances, and Christian saints (which is what St. John the Baptist is; he's a Christian saint) don't bless the starting of parasitical assemblies by giving the founders of said assemblies the power to do anything. This is all a gigantic sham.

 

[Ironhold]

So basically, you're rejecting anything that doesn't come from your faith tradition just because it doesn't come from your faith tradition?

 

[dzheremi]

So basically, you're rejecting anything that doesn't come from your faith tradition just because it doesn't come from your faith tradition?

How is that different than what Mormons do by rejecting everything in Christianity that doesn't align with what their self-proclaimed 'prophets' teach?

The difference being that when Christians reject practices that are unique to Mormonism, they are simply being consistent and keeping with the scriptures that warn us about those who would come later bringing a different gospel, whereas when Mormons reject things in Christianity that don't align with Mormonism, they're just underlining the fact that Mormonism and Christianity are incompatible, and that Mormonism is in fact not a form of Christianity akin to Protestantism, Catholicism, or Orthodoxy, but a different, non-Christian religion.

Just because, indeed.

 

[Jamesone5]

So basically, you're rejecting anything that doesn't come from your faith tradition just because it doesn't come from your faith tradition?

What is a faith tradition?
Something that that only Mormons hang all their beliefs onto?

Where in the Bible does it say we are to hang onto a faith tradition?

It, however warns of us these traditions of men

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

 

[dzheremi]

Jamesone5: This is not a place for Christians to argue with other Christians, so I would recommend not going down the current mode of conversation, as your view can very easily be contradicted by, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:15 as interpreted by various Christian churches and their associated traditions.

In the original Greek, the word is the same for both those things we are to reject and those things we are to keep -- paradoseis (παραδόσεις). The bad things are the paradoseis tis anthropos, "the traditions of men", while the good things we are to hold to in keeping with instruction of St. Paul to the Thessalonians are the paradoseis tou Theou, "the traditions of God". So tradition itself as a thing is neither good nor bad, but rather there are good traditions we are to keep, and there are bad traditions we are to discard or stay away from. They are both paradoseis.

So please, let's not focus on tradition as a thing, but on what Mormonism is telling people they need to believe. Is it a "tradition of man" or a "tradition of God"? We'll have much more agreement on that than we would debating tradition as a thing.

 

[Jamesone5]

Jamesone5: This is not a place for Christians to argue with other Christians, so I would recommend not going down the current mode of conversation, as your view can very easily be contradicted by, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:15 as interpreted by various Christian churches and their associated traditions.

In the original Greek, the word is the same for both those things we are to reject and those things we are to keep -- paradoseis (παραδόσεις). The bad things are the paradoseis tis anthropos, "the traditions of men", while the good things we are to hold to in keeping with instruction of St. Paul to the Thessalonians are the paradoseis tou Theou, "the traditions of God". So tradition itself as a thing is neither good nor bad, but rather there are good traditions we are to keep, and there are bad traditions we are to discard or stay away from. They are both paradoseis.

So please, let's not focus on tradition as a thing, but on what Mormonism is telling people they need to believe. Is it a "tradition of man" or a "tradition of God"? We'll have much more agreement on that than we would debating tradition as a thing.

Since you put the argument to me--it is real simple:

Faith is something we each reach individually. As we are all promised this:

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Out Faith is based on this truth we receive via the Spirit of Truth--- or it should be.
Now this is the ideal conclusion:

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

I expect I will see a lot of people of different Religions in heaven, irregardles of their worldly faith "traditions". Remember we are referring to a tradition of God rather than a faith tradition as a "thing".

 

[dzheremi]

Fine. I don't want to argue with anyone and get the thread shut down. That was the point of my post: please don't go here, because we (the Christians of the thread, who are not supposed to argue with one another) are not all going to agree to your view on tradition, since there's multiple ways to read any presented scriptural passage.

 

[Jamesone5]

Fine. I don't want to argue with anyone and get the thread shut down. That was the point of my post: please don't go here, because we (the Christians of the thread, who are not supposed to argue with one another) are not all going to agree to your view on tradition, since there's multiple ways to read any presented scriptural passage.

"Religion is man's imperfect way to get close to God while Christ is God's perfect way to get close to man"

Certainty it applies to the Mormon Religion.