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LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

He is the way

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This is not God:

I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being - (
JS History 15b-16a)

And this:

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. (JS History 16b)

is explained by this:

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14)
Not all visions are from Satan. These are all assumptions. I have my own proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
 
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BigDaddy4

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The church does not give commandments, God does. Being sealed to our families is nothing new.
All I ask for is a little honesty and instead I get this... :doh:

God does not require being a baptized member of your church to be saved, your church does.
God does not require "being sealed" (i.e., families forever), your church does. Yes, this is something that is new and never in the history of Bible-believing Christianity has this been a requirement or teaching.

Do you want more lds-only commandments that have never been a part of Christianity?
 
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He is the way

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All I ask for is a little honesty and instead I get this... :doh:

God does not require being a baptized member of your church to be saved, your church does.
God does not require "being sealed" (i.e., families forever), your church does. Yes, this is something that is new and never in the history of Bible-believing Christianity has this been a requirement or teaching.

Do you want more lds-only commandments that have never been a part of Christianity?
God does require that baptisms are done by someone who is authorized to baptize.

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:4)

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 5)

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Sealings were authorized during the time Jesus was on the earth, they aren't new:

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
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BigDaddy4

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You are still assuming what you believe to be true.
The Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are among the numerous evidences of Joseph Smith being a false prophet. No assumption, pure fact.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Not all visions are from Satan. These are all assumptions. I have my own proof that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
Since it is your proof, then he is a prophet to you only. When actual evidence is examined without the lds slant, there is no way JS was a prophet. He fails the Biblical prophet test.
 
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BigDaddy4

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God does require that baptisms are done by someone who is authorized to baptize.

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:4)

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 5)

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Sealings were authorized during the time Jesus was on the earth, they aren't new:

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Stretch Armstrong doesn't stretch as much as you do. All of the scriptures you posted are taken out of context and do not relate to baptisms or sealing of families like you want them to.
 
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He is the way

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Since it is your proof, then he is a prophet to you only. When actual evidence is examined without the lds slant, there is no way JS was a prophet. He fails the Biblical prophet test.
You say he failed, I say he didn't fail.
 
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He is the way

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Stretch Armstrong doesn't stretch as much as you do. All of the scriptures you posted are taken out of context and do not relate to baptisms or sealing of families like you want them to.
They do fit the same as baptism for the dead fits and was acknowledged by Paul.
 
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Bur Warren Jeffs is FLDS and considered an apostate by LDS.
Fundamentally, however, they are all born of the same principle: the creation of their own religion on the basis of their claims to be prophets of God, with followers who believe that they really are prophets of God. Once people begin to accept the idea that Christ's Church, which He purchased with His blood, fell away (apostatized) and therefor needed to be restored by someone who allegedly is authorized by God to do so, through messages from angels and divine visions, etc..., or is otherwise more spiritually adept then any of the members, including even the whole body of the very bishops ordained by the holy Apostles themselves to have teaching authority in His Church, then the door is opened for an endless array of false prophets, false teachers, and those who believe things which are not true on account of those untruths. That's all.
 
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They do fit the same as baptism for the dead fits and was acknowledged by Paul.
Paul said something to cause us to believe that some Christians may very well have been practicing it. However, Paul never stated that Baptizing the dead is something that must be done and does not address in his epistle whether it ought to be done or not, and the practice was never embraced by the whole Church. The Church obviously has spoken and said that it wasn't something that ought to be done.
 
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Rescued One

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truefiction1, Mormonism and Non-Mormons

I know a lot about LDS and FLDS. I do not intend to join your church. All Christians are the body of Christ's Church. We don't argue with other Trinitarians in this forum.
 
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truefiction1, Mormonism and Non-Mormons

I know a lot about LDS and FLDS. I do not intend to join your church. All Christians are the body of Christ's Church. We don't argue with other Trinitarians in this forum.
Whether you ever intend to join the Church that I'm a member of is God's business, I reckon. So it's not a thing I'm worried about.
 
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Rescued One

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Whether you ever intend to join the Church that I'm a member of is God's business, I reckon. So it's not a thing I'm worried about.

Do you understand that Debate Other Religions & Faiths is not a place for Christians to criticize or debate other Christians?
 
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Do you understand that Debate Other Religions & Faiths is not a place for Christians to criticize or debate other Christians?
Debating heterodox denominations isn't on my agenda here. Do you understand that it's not beyond the rightful scope of my debate with Mormons to shine a light upon the very problematic foundation upon which their false religion is built? Will you claim that I've no right to do that when debating a Mormon just because what I'm saying is troubling to you in some way? My points aren't meant for you, as a debate against your faith, any more than they are meant as an attack on the faith of someone like Richard Wurmbrand, or C.S. Lewis, to cite just a couple of examples coming out of other Christian faith traditions. My statements, even made as replies to yours, are for their sake (LDS), not yours.
 
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dzheremi

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Aaaanyway...back to Mormonism...

It seems that places where Mormons are in the majority suffer from the same narrow-mindedness and prejudice that we often see promoted by certain Mormon posters here on CF as emblematic of the way that Christians treat Mormons in the wider world.

It's a bit on the rough side, production-wise, but I suggest that everyone watch this clip of interviews with non-Mormons in a Mormon-majority town, including Muslim, Baptist, and Catholic input. I find the Muslim woman's observation during the first of her two interview clips to be very interesting.


That Mormons would not be as understanding when they are in the majority as they are as a tiny minority is hardly surprising, but it does call into question how they can frame their relation to others as they do (that others have not found Christ, that others are mean, etc.), particularly since when you ask those others they say that they would welcome Mormons to their own places of worship and so on.

Yet it would seem, again, that once they are back safely among their own they don't much care for other people's churches or religions:


It seems to me that they might do much better if they would just state that outright to other people (e.g., "We think you should become Mormon because you are not in the right religion, and never will be unless you become Mormon"), in the same way that Christians have no trouble drawing theological, ecclesiological, etc. lines in the sand even between one another, as we can see all over this website. The current push to 'nice' their way into being considered Christians may work with people for whom Christianity is 100% 'social gospel' pietism and 0% actual gospel and actual doctrinal stances on things, but does not work on anyone who has even the smallest amount of awareness that you can't simply fashion a Frankenstein's religion out of rejiggered Biblical personages peppered throughout your 19th century Bible fan fiction and be actually considered a(ny) type of Christianity any more than your average counterfeiter can plausibly claim to run the U.S. Mint.
 
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He is the way

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Paul said something to cause us to believe that some Christians may very well have been practicing it. However, Paul never stated that Baptizing the dead is something that must be done and does not address in his epistle whether it ought to be done or not, and the practice was never embraced by the whole Church. The Church obviously has spoken and said that it wasn't something that ought to be done.
Then that church that does not believe in baptism for the dead is wrong and Paul was right. God is fair and just. I will not be a part of a God who is not fair and just. God has indeed made it possible for everyone to receive the necessary ordinances for salvation for everyone, not just the few. God is LOVE and He LOVES those who LOVE Him and who LOVE their neighbor. Those who treat others badly are themselves ungodly.
 
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mmksparbud

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Then that church that does not believe in baptism for the dead is wrong and Paul was right. God is fair and just. I will not be a part of a God who is not fair and just. God has indeed made it possible for everyone to receive the necessary ordinances for salvation for everyone, not just the few. God is LOVE and He LOVES those who LOVE Him and who LOVE their neighbor. Those who treat others badly are themselves ungodly.

Apparently only so long as those others are LDS. But it is only human nature---whomever is in power , or is the majority, belongs there, others do not. Thus, if a town, or city is LDS--they are no different than when others are the majority. Catholics persecuted Protestants, when Protestants became the majority, they persecuted the Catholics.
 
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Then that church that does not believe in baptism for the dead is wrong and Paul was right. God is fair and just. I will not be a part of a God who is not fair and just. God has indeed made it possible for everyone to receive the necessary ordinances for salvation for everyone, not just the few. God is LOVE and He LOVES those who LOVE Him and who LOVE their neighbor. Those who treat others badly are themselves ungodly.
Paul is only one member of the whole body of the Church, albeit a most highly influential one. Paul did not say that the Church "should" baptize the dead. He merely made a reference to a practice that he was aware of. He also wrote (if we attribute the authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews to Paul) that there is no forgiveness of sins after Baptism. Yet the Church receives both baptized sinners and apostates back into Communion if they repent, and does not refuse them on the basis of merely one person's ideas on the matter. The Church as a whole alone has the authority to determine what is good and what is needful unto salvation, not any single individual member, even if they are an Apostle, or one of the Apostle's successors; a bishop. So Paul was not right and the Church, of which he is a member, wrong.
 
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