More than Dreams: Christ Witnessing to Muslims via Visions is Real?

[Gxg (G²)]

Shalom..


Concerning why I was writing, it was on my mind recently that the ways others reach out in evangelism are varied....and over the past couple of years, it has been astounding to see how Christ has been coming to Muslims in dreams to reveal Himself to them..in light of how many were told that they cannot believe in Isa (arabic for "Jesus"). There was actually an amazing series on the issue that one of my Eastern CHristian brothers alerted me to...a Protestant work entitled "More than Dreams."

More Than Dreams 1/5 - Ali (Christian Documentary)
More Than Dreams 2/5 - Dini (Christian Documentary)
More Than Dreams 3/5 - Khalil (Christian Documentary)​

More Than Dreams 4/5 - Khosrow (Christian Documentary)
More Than Dreams 5/5 - Mohammed (Christian .Documentary _)..​

The video series deals with the subject of how there has been a phenomenon that has been recurring in the Muslim world for decades, as it concerns men and women without any knowledge of the Gospel and without any contact with Christians that have been forever transformed after experiencing dreams and visions of Jesus Christ. The video series goes through five stories of former Muslims who now know Jesus as their Savior, recreated in docu-drama format. Its is apart of evangelistic material often used when witnessing to those of Islamic background...and the series has been produced in their original languages with English subtitles.​

These are what the main stories are about within the video series:​

• Khalil was a radical Egyptian terrorist who was transformed when Jesus appeared to him and changed his heart. (Arabic, 29 minutes)
• Mohammed is a herdsman in Nigeria who found the deep love of Christ. He survived various attempts on his life by his father and eventually led his father to faith in Christ. (Hausa, 46 minutes)

• Dini is an Indonesian teenager who became a Christian on a night that Muslims individualize their prayers to Allah. She was immediately filled with peace, even as persecution began. (Indonesian, 42 minutes)​

• Khosrow is a young Iranian man who was depressed and without hope until he met Jesus. Now joy fills his heart. (Farsi, 30 minutes)​

• Ali is a Turkish man in bondage to alcohol. While making the pilgrimage to Mecca, hoping to be freed of his addiction and be led in the way of a true Muslim, he found Christ instead. (Turkish, 40 minutes)​

There are many testimonies I've heard over the years of those who are Muslims and turned to Jesus solely because of the POWER of the Holy Spirit...and many of them changed when experiencing what the Word describes of what occurs in visions when others hear the voice of the Lord audibly ( i.e. Genesis 15:1-3, Genesis 46:1-3, Numbers 12:5-7, Numbers 24:3-5, 1 Samuel 3:1-3, Isaiah 6, Ezekiel 1:1-3, Ezekiel 8:2-4, Ezekiel 11:23-25, Ezekiel 40:1-3, Ezekiel 43:2-4, Daniel 1:16-18, Daniel 2:18-20, Daniel 7:1-3, Daniel 8:1-3, Daniel 10:6-8, Luke 1:21-23, Acts 9:9-11, Acts 10:2-4, Acts 11:4-6, Acts 18:8-10, )
Jesus often came at people from a myriad of angles whenever it came to revealing himself....and some of them simply by fellowshipping with him had a life transforming experience.

Paul in the scriptures had the exact same experience during his own conversion, as he was stopped right in his tracks before he could go commit murder:

Acts 26:1-20
I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

19"So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.
​

Job 33:14-18
For God does speak—now one way, now another— though man may not perceive it. 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men as they slumber in their beds, 16 he may speak in their ears and terrify them with warnings, 17 to turn man from wrongdoing and keep him from pride, 18 to preserve his soul from the pit, [a] his life from perishing by the sword

​

Paul got permission to travel to Damascus to capture Christians and bring them back to Jerusalem. But God stopped him in his hurried tracks on the Damascus Road. Paul personally met Jesus and his life was never the same With Paul, he did not see a vision; he saw the Risen Christ Himself (Acts 9:1-18). Paul acknowledged Jesus, confessed his own sin, surrendered his life to Christ and resolved to obey him. For True conversion comes from a personal encounter with Jesus Christ and leads to a new life in relationship with him.

Does anyone here feel that the Lord witnessing to others via dreams is appropriate? And, seeing how it may come up at some point, does anyone feel that Christ appearing to the Muslims via dreams means that all things within Islam are wrong or that there are not still things Muslims choosing to follow Christ can hold to even after being given the revelation of Yeshua? ​

For more on where I'm coming from, part of me wonders on how it sometimes seems most accurate to say they recognize the One God, and insofar as they direct worship to that, they worship him, though with incomplete knowledge..and that when they direct worship to things that are manmade additions, they are not. The former activity is probably good for the soul, whereas the latter not...but always there is a real danger/ serious error, because they have it partly right - something that is much more dangerous than someone who is, say, a sort of animist or something completely different.​

Whenever it comes to Christ and how the Gospel is contexualized within differing cultures/religions, my heart is to study so as to not create error....and in studying over the years, surprisngly, I was amazed at how many stereotypes I had of Muslims that were not really what was present..including things mentioned in texts such as the Quran that often get debated (i.e. Christ Death on the Cross, Christ as the Son of God, etc) and seeing how often there is a good deal of miscommunication in concepts (more discussed in #62 , #59 , #56 , #55 , #54 , #49 , #47 , #33 , #29 , #30 , #17, #10 , #1) . Many Muslims, if asking them, had no issue noting that Christ is the Savior--and moreover, they had no issue with saying that the Quran is not against the fact that He indeed died and yet lived...or that Isa was the Messiah who'd save the world by His sacrifice. For others who trust the Messiah and yet remain within an Islamic context, it's a big deal for them to remember the examples within scripture, be it with Joseph in Egypt or Esther in Persia or Daniel in Babylon and Paul in his work with the unknown god ( more discussed here in #4 and #57 ). And with Muslims, there are a HOST of logical inconsistencies many people ascribe to them that really are not accurate (even though many other things aren't accurate in regards to how to see God) and that is the reason many have taken alot of issue.'​

For some reference on what it is I'm speaking of, one can go here:

• Listen – Death of Jesus
• Listen – Jesus Muslims Pt.1
• Listen – Jesus Muslims Pt.2
• Listen – Jesus Word of God
• VIDEO: Muslim Followers of Christ
• Peacemaking Key: Jesus as the Word of God in the Qur’an?

I think it's more than possible that Messianic Muslims exist, as I've witnessed it directly...and where I'm at currently, I think that it's more than possible that Islam itself is no different than any other religion when it comes to being incomplete in revelation apart from who Christ is---and that even if they may have areas where things are off, there are many other things that were revelations from the Lord. Partial truth, if one wishes to call it such, that was given as a foreshadow of what was to come later...or what had already come (as Islam came after the Church began) and yet had not yet been fully understood by the people that hadn't encountered it yet. If aware of something known as Ancient Faith Radio, they did a series on the issue of how in some cultures, it seems that they were already being prepared for the presentation of the Gospel…with it being established that GOD was at work in all cultures far before any others with revelation of what the Hebrews had came around. The radio brodcast from "Ancient Faith Radio" was on a book entitled “Christ the Eternal Tao”…and for more info, one can go online/look up "Christ the Eternal Tao - Ancient Faith Radio". I thought it was interesting to see from an Eastern Christian perspective how the Tao Te Ching is presented as an imperfect, incomplete foreshadowing of what would later be revealed by Christ.

And when looking at scripture, it does seem that the same dynamics are present. In example, Cornelius in Acts 10-11 comes immediately to mind, as he had no idea about Jesus and yet scriptures notes how his prayers/devout actions (i.e. gifts to the poor, kindness, etc) were like prayers before the Lord --and the Lord sent full revelation to the man via Peter. But prior to that, was Cornelius lost/destined for Hell due to never hearing of Christ? I'm not certain... ​

I'm also reminded of Acts 18:24-28, where its clear that Apollos only knew of the Baptism of John...suggesting that He had not heard at all of the Baptism which Jesus commanded after His resurrection in Matthew 28:19....and which began to be administered to all believers in Christ on and after that day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41, Acts 8:12, etc). Therefore, Apollos KNOWLEDGE of the Christian Gospel must have been deficient in SOME ways, though HE TAUGHT accurately the things concerning Jesus as fare as he knew them.. He certainly knew about Jesus' life and teachings, but He may not have known about Jesus's death and resurrection...or about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. God blessed Him by sending Him others who gave more full awareness of it (Acts 19:1-20:1 ).

And likewise, IMHO, it may be said that the same is possible for many Muslims. In many ways, they could be looking at the same Christ...but with other details not present (just as the Jews had many details off from within much of rabbinical traditions/teachings and lost of information).

​

​

THus, for me....whenever I hear of Muslims being presented with the Gospel, what comes to my mind is the dynamic of Muslims who have been given greater revelation to the level of revelation that they already had been given. And when it comes to them seeing Christ via dreams within a culture that may say erroneously that He was not the Savior, part of me wonders what the implications of that may be.​

Whatever your thoughts, I'd love to hear sometime. Shalom ​

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Isaiah 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

All things are possible with God.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Isaiah 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

All things are possible with God.

Powerful scripture and many thanks for bringing it up. I agree that all things are truly possible with the Lord...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Isaiah 65:1
I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

All things are possible with God.

If I may ask, how have you experienced this and seen this yourself?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

If I may ask, how have you experienced this and seen this yourself?

By my own personal experience. The Lord revealed himself to me at a time when I wasn't looking for him.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

By my own personal experience. The Lord revealed himself to me at a time when I wasn't looking for him.

To be more specific, I was wondering more so how he did so...and whether it was through dreams/visions (as it is with Muslims) or if it was through another way...and I was also curious as to whether or not you've had others that had the same occur.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

To be more specific, I was wondering more so how he did so...and whether it was through dreams/visions (as it is with Muslims) or if it was through another way...and I was also curious as to whether or not you've had others that had the same occur.

I received the anointing of the Holy Spirit and the revelation of Jesus Christ back in 2007. I won't go into details on everything that happened that day on this forum, but yes I have had several visions since that time.

I personally don't know of any others that have had this same experience, but I believe the Lord reveals himself to each man according to His own will and purpose in their lives.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I received the anointing of the Holy Spirit and the revelation of Jesus Christ back in 2007. I won't go into details on everything that happened that day on this forum, but yes I have had several visions since that time..

Cool to know...

I personally don't know of any others that have had this same experience, but I believe the Lord reveals himself to each man according to His own will and purpose in their lives

I agree. Truthfully, in regards to the OP topic, I've had similar thoughts even about Mohommad...one whom I believe missed alot after not making certain what he believed was correct. To be more detailed in what I mean, one can investigate the following:

• Pilgrims of Christ on the Muslim Road: Exploring a New Path ... - Page 102
• Pilgrims of Christ on the Muslim Road: Exploring a New Path Between Two FaithsBy Paul-Gordon Chandler

As others have often noted, the problem with Islam is that it stopped where Muhammad began. He had tried to call his people to worship God against pagan worship/idolatry..and reintroduced the Abrahamic faith into a pagan area. However, despite any positive gains, there were many others that were later developed into error as life went on---making him comparable to Solomon, the great teacher/king who ended his life doing exactly opposite of what he had initially preached and demonstrated according to I Kings 11-12. To judge from the subsequent nature of Islam, Christianity seems to have been particularly interesting to him, since Muhammad adopted and adapted quite a few Christian ideas...and IMHO, when studying the people who initially came into the land where Muhammad grew up in, it seems that much of the Disputes between the Eastern Orthodox Christians and the Roman Catholic papacy influenced Muhammad s understanding of Christianity on certain levels. Despite all of the ways that Muhammad did erroneous things, I'd tend to agree with others who feel that the man was partially a victim of Christianity/the evolution it went through.

Interestingly enough, St. John of Damascus thought that Islam was a Christian heresy. He felt that Muhammad was inspired by Arian Christians who had a warped perception of Christ and salvation in general...for the Arians had a mistaken approach to Christianity that funneled into Muhammad's mindset in his travels, according to St. John Damascene's view. ...meaning that he felt Muslims worship the same god, only with serious defects in their understanding, just as the Jews continue to do when not realizing the fullness of who Christ is and how he truly fulfills Judaism.

From what I understand, Constantine legalized Christianity and made it the official religion of the Empire---and during the time when the Nicene Creed established orthodoxy, especially as it related to the Person of Christ, Expulsion of heresy occurred as a result of nationalized Christianity—many “Christians” with variant beliefs migrated/fled to the Arabian peninsula, which by the 6th century comprised a mixture of Jews, Hanifs, polytheistic Arab tribes, and “Christians” with varying beliefs.

In the context that Muhammad lived in, his influences were Arab polytheists, "heretic" Christians, Jews, and Abrahamic monotheists called Hanifs. The Qur’an addresses a number of heresies that had already been dealt with 300 years earlier during the age of great Christian councils---ones saying that Jesus/God the Father and the Holy Spirit were not "3 different gods" (as many Muslims often say "CHristians" say when failing to understand that Muhammad said not to support the ideology of 3 gods since other Christians were condeming such).... and IMHO, we should learn to read it through the cultural lens of its time. For more on the subject, one can go online/investigate the article entitled Trinity as Radical Monotheism | About Muslim Christian Relations ... (more )or The Holy Trinity in the Qur'an « God Omnipotent

It could be said that much of Mohommad actions were necessary for the times he lived in when it came to his people...and I'd even go so far as to say that perhaps he was used by the Lord for a time. However, much of what he did later was far off. As -Mazhar Mallouhi said best in his "Pilgrims on the Muslim Road" book, "I compare him with Solomon [...] who ended his life doing the opposite of what he initially preached and demonstrated (I Kings 11-12). The problem with Islam is that it stopped where Muhammad began."

As another ministry said best on the subject:

A great deal of difficulty exists in concretely describing the indigenous religions of the Arab people during Muhammad’s time. While it is known that the Arabs indulged in a mixture of polytheism and animism, their exact level of adherence to these deities is uncertain
.... During this period, there were various Jewish, Zoroastrian, and Christian (largely outside the bounds of historic orthodoxy) settlements within Arabia. According to some scholars many of the known Christian settlements of the period were mostly comprised of Nestorians and Monophysites. The Nestorians taught that “… two persons as well as two natures in[dwelled within] Christ.” This would mean that “… when Christ sacrificed His life on the cross, it was not the person who is also divine, the Son of God, who died for us.” The Monophysites, on the other hand, denied that Christ possessed a fully human and a fully divine nature.

This belief went against the orthodox teaching that the two natures existed alongside one another, undiminished and unmixed. According to some sources, these settlements held positions of influence, albeit to a small degree, on the Arabian Peninsula. As a result, their theological positions were known by at least some throughout the region.
Some scholars believe that the existence of such groups potentially impacted the development of Islamic theology, as well as Muhammad’s understanding of Christianity.

However, in light of the Muslim understanding of the Qur’an’s origination, it would not matter who Muhammad came into contact with from within the outskirts of Christendom, because the Qur’an as Allah’s direct word by its very nature necessitates an accurate account of orthodox Christian belief entirely untarnished by Muhammad’s faulty understanding of Christian theology.
In addition to these Christian settlements, there were a number of Christian slaves living on the Arabian Peninsula. According to those who opposed Muhammad’s monotheism, the prophet received his information concerning Allah from these Christian slaves; however, this assertion cannot be concretely confirmed or rejected. Regardless, Muslim tradition does preserve accounts, not inherently improbable, concerning several Meccan Arabs who possessed knowledge of Jewish and Christian scriptures, and these figures are generally accepted by Muslim opinion as having had close relations with Muhammad and even affected his spiritual development. Whether directly influenced by “Christian” heretics or by Muslims who received second-hand information pertaining to the biblical text, it is plausible that Muhammad’s conception was likely influenced by those acquainted with a variety of Christian theological positions.
​

Seeing how Muhammad himself was not really a scholar on all points and was heavily influenced by the accounts of Christ he may've heard from other believers in Christ, it is not surprising to me to see the many ways in which some of the things he notes are not fully accurate..or as well expounded upon as in the very Bible which the Quran encourages all to actually study. Its always interesting to see the many accounts of believers in Christ who noted that they grew up studying the Quran--and yet, grew from that into reading the scriptures when they noticed how the Quran instructed them to do so...and thus, they ended up reading the scriptures/gaining a fuller view of what the Quran only saw to a limited degree...

Some of it's akin to the dynamic of folk or tale tales and real biographies, as the former deal with unbelievable elements, related as if it were true and factual, even thoug there are many true aspects it was built around while other things are exaggerations. Some stories are exaggerations of actualhistorical/biographical events (i.e. Davey Crocket and the Alamo, John Henry, etc), for example fish stories ('the fish that got away') such as, "that fish was so big, why I tell ya', it nearly sank the boat when I pulled it in!"---but compared to an actual biography, one will get fuller details that describe an event in its fullness and give clarity on one aspect that wasn't understood as fully.​

For a practical example of this within the Quran, one can consider the example of where it was noted that the Lord made clay pigeons come to life. In the Quran, it notes that "Jesus could make birds out of clay and create life for the amusement of his playmates with "Allah's" permission. He would make clay birds into which he breathed and they were transformed, by the Lord's permission into real birds that could fly. i.e. duplication of the process of CREATION, by God's permission. Seeing that, one must ask 'what purpose was there in allowing 'Jesus' to make birds out of clay what could fly (with Allah's permission) further God's purpose? For God doesn't do things without a purpose. That fact that 'Jesus' could do this tells us that as a child 'Jesus' could create life. And who creates life, but God Himself? In the final analysis, perhaps the Qur'an is demonstrating that 'Jesus' is the Creator. For notice according to the Qur'an "Allah" creates through His Word---and Jesus/Isa is considered the Word and Spirit of God. Perhaps the author of the Qur'an didn't realize what this all meant...as he repeated Christian folklore and made a huge mistake in repeating it without understanding the full implications.​

From an historical perspective, some of the stories in the Quran must have been circulating around Arabian caravan routes where Muhammad may have heard them when he was in the employ of his wife Khadija. If interested, the following 7-minute video explains a few of them.​

Is the Quran Corrupted? Biblical Characters in the Quran​

With Eastern Christianity (in some circles), similar things have often come up...as there's one account somewhere I remember learning of where the 18yrs of the life was Christ (between when he was 12 and when he went into ministry) involved Him traveling to India, making playful miracles and learning. In the Quran itself, those specific folklore stories are from the second century and older. Some of the material in the Ahadith is actually taken verbatim from the Gospel of Thomas. The story of Jesus talking to Mary in the Cradle, as it appears in the Quran in Surah 3:38-48, has always interested me. For the story was most likely being told in the times of Muhammad when considering the pseudepigrapha accounts of the same. --and for more, one can go here or here, in light of how many other scholars have been noting the same for sometime now. Apparently Muhammad heard them told verbally and thought they were true, when in fact, they are folklore. He couldn't tell the difference, as one who wasn't educated. They include Jesus talking as an infant and making clay birds that could fly, plus others.

Seeing how many things seem to be matters of tales from Christianity were passed on to Mohommad, perhaps it would truly be best to see him as getting alot of wrong facts...

 

[ForceofTime]

Hello Easy G,

Interesting thread for sure. The section concerning Tao got my attention since I was Taoist before I became Christian; however, it was not a vision or dream that prompted my conversion.

Thank you for the link. God bless!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I personally don't know of any others that have had this same experience, but I believe the Lord reveals himself to each man according to His own will and purpose in their lives.

What you said reminded me of scriptures dealing with the reality of MANY believers who were unaware of the GIFT of the Holy Spirit which the Lord had made possible thru the Atonement of Christ. Examples of such are seen in things like Acts 19:2-4 where Paul finds believers who were given ONLY the Baptism of John....but they were incomplete in God's Best for them.

Acts 19:1-6
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Paul in Ephesus 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied.
​

These believers in the Lord were COMPLETLY unware of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit----something Christ made clear was apart of the reason why He had to die (Joel 2:27-29 , John 14, John 16, Acts 2:16-18, etc)---and therefore they probably had not heard much of Jesus's Life and ministry.....and CERTAINLY not of His death and resurrection. They had evidently relocated from Palestine to Ephesus before Jesus's own ministry began...and as followers of


John, they would have known His message that the Messiah would bring the Spirit (Luke 3:16). Nonetheless, it stands to reason that the obvious issue is that they were already considered FOLLOWERS of GOD long before having full information of the details of Christ's Work/something to believe in....


The Lord truly works with others where they are at...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hello Easy G,

Interesting thread for sure.

Shalom FOT.

Curious as to what it was that you found to be of interest..

The section concerning Tao got my attention since I was Taoist before I became Christian; however, it was not a vision or dream that prompted my conversion.

Interesting to consider...and I'd love to hear what it your experience was in regards to how you became as you were. As it concerns Tao, I've always been fascinated with the myriad of ways people from that culture have been witnessed to when it comes to the Gospel. Brother Philip Jenkins, in his book "The Lost History of Christianity" noted often the way that believers went into Asian lands and contexualized the Gospel within Tao and Buddist terms that the locals could readily understand (discussed here, here, and here at The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--And How It Died - Page 14 ).

Thank you for the link. God bless!

Blessings to you as well..

 

[ForceofTime]

Well, the whole reason I first read the Bible from beginning to end was simply to find the Tao Te Ching in it. I was amazed at the results! At any rate, it was LaoTze himself who urged me to follow Christ; his own teacher and father!

強 梁 者 不 得 其 死 ， 吾 將 以 為 教 父 。

"The violent man must die violently." Whoever said this can be my teacher and my father.

Mat 26:52 KJV Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well, the whole reason I first read the Bible from beginning to end was simply to find the Tao Te Ching in it. I was amazed at the results! At any rate, it was LaoTze himself who urged me to follow Christ; his own teacher and father!

強 梁 者 不 得 其 死 ， 吾 將 以 為 教 父 。

"The violent man must die violently." Whoever said this can be my teacher and my father.

Mat 26:52 KJV Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Amazing to consider the ways that teachings within another system of thought can end up being akin to bridges that take others into the scriptures and directly lead them to Christ. Never considered that about the LaoTze, but it is truly noteworthy!!!

Part of what you noted connects well with the OP topic since I think its interesting to see the issue of how God's Word plays out when it comes to discussion in evangelism..for many, though they may realize that the Qur'an was never God's Word, also realized that it is was the case that it contained many things that were indeed aspects of the Word....and with that in mind, they realized that they did not have to get rid of everything within it that was indeed the Word of God.


From where I stand, I'm not saying it is my belief that everything called "scripture" was inspired by God. Taken at face value the phrase "all scripture is inspired by God" can be taken to mean that...for all truth is God's Truth--and there are many things within the Qura'n that are indeed true.

Muslims do not trust the Bible and feel it has been corrupted because they see it as in conflict with their own scriptures. So anything I can do to dispell that notion I try to do. ..and its interesting to see how often many in Islam will be ones supporting CULTURAL Islam rather than Quaranic Islam--for if they did practice Quaranic Islam based on the text alone, they'd would often find themselves running right into Jesus. Islamic Theology=The composite teachings of family, religious leaders, traditions, hadith, etc....whereas Qur’anic Theology=What the Qur’an actually says

The Qur'an claims to confirm the previous Scriptures. Did you know that up until about 1100AD, Muslims believed the Qur'an did confirm the past Scriptures?

It was only until they read the past Scriptures that they then claimed "corruption."

The choice was clear; if the Qur'an confirms the past Scriptures and those Scriptures in fact contradict the Qur'an, then the only alternative was to say the Jews and the Christians changed or "corrupted" those Scriptures in order to prove the Qur'an correct.

Since our manuscripts predate Islam by a few hundred years, then the Qur'an is confirming what we have today

I'd honestly have to say that perhaps the one thing you can trust above all is the GOSPELS themselves (i.e. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)---as many of the councils were discussing (as far as I understand) dynamics concerning later epistles. With the Gospels, there're many historical manuscripts verifying them. Additionally, in the times of the APOSTLES and disciples themselves, they didn't have a "BIBLE" necessarily. What they had, as Jewish believers, were the scriptures available through the TORAH and the Tanak. The life of Jesus in what he taught and preached was also what they often went off on, seeing how even Christ often went to the scriptures---from Moses to the Prophets and the Law in showing how it all pointed to Himself (Matthew 5:16-18 , Luke 24:13-34 ).

......


Even as it concerns what the Qua'ran says, it seems apparent that Muhammad had great understanding of the scriptures and faith in the angels who told Zechariah he would have a son (as in Luke 1:18, 57-60).

When the angels said, 'O Mary, ALLAH gives thee glad tidings of a son through a word from HIM; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;

'And he shall speak to the people in the cradle, and when of middle age, and he shall be of the righteous.



"—Qur'an, Surah 3:38-48
​

Additionally, Muhammad also spoke of the resurrection of Jesus:

"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.'
—Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35
​

Mohommad was very familiar with the teachings of the Jewish and Christian holy book the Bible (perhaps in reading it himself, if he was literate, or in learning of it through oral means via storytelling). He was very upset with the hypocrisy among the people: the idol worship , and anything dishonoring to God was very revolting to Him. He believed that Allah had revealed the Torah and the Gospels (the Injil).

"ALLAH is HE besides Whom there is none worthy of worship, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. HE has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and HE has sent down the Torah (Law of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guidance to the people; and HE has sent down the Discrimination (judgement between right and wrong)."—Qur'an, Surah 3:3-4
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For the sake of reference, places one can consider going online/investigating are under the names of "ISLAM: An Overview for Christians" ( //www.christiananswers.net/islam.html ) and "Youtube - Former muslims Share Jesus Christ with Muslims !" ( //www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlV9gFFTbys ).



If going off of what the Qua'ran alone says, one can clearly see it bears surprising witness to Jesus. It affirms His virgin birth, His ability to heal and raise the dead, that He is both a word from God and a spirit from God, that He is the Messiah, an all-righteous one (sinless), among those nearest to God, that He is alive in heaven now and will return to judge the earth (Qur’an 3:45, 49; 4:158; 82:22). Many Muslims have often been convinced that Christ is greater than Muhammad from just reading the Qur’an. And as it relates to others saying that Christians shouldn't trust their Bible, it seems that even Christiasn have an unexpected ally in Muhammad's book, the Qur’an. For a careful reading of Qur’anic references (3:84; 5:51, 71; 6:34; 10:37, 64, 94; 46:12) shows how Muhammad affirmed his belief in what was revealed to Moses and Jesus. He taught that God confirms and guards all previous scripture, that Christians are to stand fast on their own books of the Law and the Gospel, and that none could change the Word of God. ....and the Muslim is told that if he has doubts he should ask the Jews and Christians, who were reading the Holy Books before he was.



Again, many Muslims who come to Jesus did so simply because they began to actually read the Bible and listen to other Christians as their Holy Book (the Qua'ran) commands them to do...and when they read it, they realize just how man-made their book is to have contradictory teachings....one that says its superior and yet tells others to read of what another Book (Bible) says, even though that book is full of teachings saying it alone in its perspective is true when it comes to saying Jesus is the only way to be saved. For them, they see the Qur'an as having many beautiful things to say/pointers to the Truth of the Gospel---and as it concerns other aspects, they see it simply as a historical book rather than something one must base their lives upon.

As said before, there are many things within the Qu'ran that many scholars have noted come directly from the Bible anyhow....and in many ways, though the Muslims often try to say the Bible is corrupted, its interesting how their own texts says that those of the Bible should be listened to regardless....and as many Muslims have come to know Christ/follow Him according to the Bible, its interesting to see how they gradually change over.

Much of it reminds of of what often happens scripturally when others may prophesy and yet not really do so with the intent of glorifying God prior..such as with Caiphas, for example, when he prophesied of the death of Christ:

John 11:45-52

The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place[a] and our nation."

49Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.
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The phrase "die for the people" invokes the memory of the Maccabean martyrs (II Macc, 7:37-38). With a typical Johannine double meaning, Caiaphas's pronouncement anticipates Jesus's substitutionary atonement. IMHO, the man's actions do not mean that Caiaphas — like one who was mad, or out of his senses — uttered what he did not understand. For he spoke what was his own opinion. Rather, a higher impulse guided his tongue, because God intended that he should make known, by his mouth, something higher than what occurred to his mind. What Caiaphas said at that time was done in 2 senses.....one which dealt with the wicked design of putting Christ to death, which he had conceived in his mind...and the other concerning what God had in mind when it came to how the Lord wanted Christ to die ( Acts 2:22-24 ), thus making Caiphas's words a prediction. Its similar to what occurred when God intended to bless his people by the mouth of Balaam, on whom he had bestowed the spirit of prophecy...even though Balaam's intentions were to curse (Numbers 22-25).


And with the author of the Qur'an, its interesting to me to see how much of it was off and yet simultaneously how much of it was spot on....as if God even then knew what could happen with the errors and still found some kind of way to work it to His advantage as He always does with all things (Proverbs 16:4)

To me, we technically have the same experiences here in the U.S.A as it concerns how we in the U.S have the same dynamics when it comes to examining our nation's origins..and seeing how not many things done in the name of "Christ" or "God" were ever in line with Him even though the Lord may've worked through it ( more discussed here ).

And all the more reason why dialouge is such a key idea....

For some good resources on the issue:

• Isa Almasih and Jesus Christ - PART 1 | ἐν Χριστῷ
• Isa Almasih and Jesus Christ - Part 2 | ἐν Χριστῷ
• Isa Almasih and Jesus Christ - Part 3 | ἐν Χριστῷ
• Isa Almasih and Jesus Christ - Part 4 | ἐν Χριστῷ
• Isa Almasih and Jesus Christ - Part 6 | ἐν Χριστῷ
• The Use of the Word "Allah" in Malaysia| ἐν Χριστῷ

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well, the whole reason I first read the Bible from beginning to end was simply to find the Tao Te Ching in it. I was amazed at the results! At any rate, it was LaoTze himself who urged me to follow Christ; his own teacher and father!

強 梁 者 不 得 其 死 ， 吾 將 以 為 教 父 。

"The violent man must die violently." Whoever said this can be my teacher and my father.

Mat 26:52 KJV Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Have you personally ever had any friends or family who've experienced the same dynamics you did when looking for one thing and ending up running into Jesus?

What you said reminded me of the old saying "Not all roads lead to God---but God can meet us on any road." If you've ever heard of the book entitled "The Shack" (more discussed here) , the book at one point noted how God denied that all roads lead to him (since most roads lead nowhere) but says instead, “I will travel any road to find you.”

This is definately something I do see taking place within the Muslim world in regards to the many ways the Lord has come to others/used certain things as points of connection to lead Muslims to Christ.

Many Muslims find themselves in a conundrum...as there are those groups that do not claim the Bible is corrupted and thus disagree with other Muslims who seek to go against the Bible when their own Qua'ran calls them to investigate it/see what it says---thus opening the door for having bridges for evangelism to occur....and for people to find ways for connection to occur. Despite the long and well-known history of conflict between Christians and Muslims, their mystical traditions--especially in the Christian East and in Sufism (more here, here, here, here, here, here , here, here, here , here, here, here and here/ here / )--have shared for centuries many of the same spiritual methods and goals....and on that, its interesting to consider how things often connect. And on the issue of connections, I'm reminded of a solid book on the issue that one can go online and look up under the name of "From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East" ( )

Its by William Dalrymple, who is a Catholic who went/explored the East for some time. Hisbook traces the Eastern Orthodox congregations scattered across the Middle East from their ancient origins, reviews how they have fared under centuries of Islamic rule, and discusses the complex relationship between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity in the region. As said in the book (for an excerpt):

Across the length of what was once the former Ottoman Empire the twentieth century has seen, with the rise of education, self-consciousness and modern nationalism, the bloody unravelling of that complex tapestry - most recently and painfully in Bosnia, but before that in Cyprus, Palestine, Greece and Turkey. In each of these places pluralism has been replaced by a savage polarisation. In drips and drabs, and sometimes in great tragic exoduses, religious minorities have fled to places where they can be majorities, and those too few for that have fled the region altogether, seeking out places less heavy in history such as America and Australia. If the twentieth century has seen Europe change to a multicultural society, the same period has seen country after country in the Middle East change in the opposite direction, to a series of monolithic monoethnic blocks.
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Only in a few places such as Syria does the old intricate patchwork survive, but in these areas the old ways can be found surviving still. Shortly after seeing Muslims coming en masse to pray in the Christian basilica at Seidnaya, I saw Christians coming to sacrifice a sheep at the shrine of a Muslim saint in the ruins of the old Byzantine city of Cyrrhus, north west of Aleppo. I was told that a Syrian Orthodox girl struck down by some apparently incurable sickness had had a dream telling her to visit the shrine of Nebi Uri at Cyrrhus. She had done so, spent the night in his shrine, and the next day had been healed.

The sheep, which was covered with flowers and ribbons like the Old Testament scapegoat, was being slaughtered as an offering.

"We believe that if you are generous and give a good sheep to fulfil your vow," said the Sufi Sheik who presided over the shrine, "then you will ride that sheep at the Day of Judgement. That sheep will carry you into Paradise."
"And the Christians believe this too?" I asked
"There is no difference between ourselves and the Christians on this matter," said the Sheik, "except that sometimes the Christians make the sign of Christ over the forehead of the person want cured."

Again and again in the Middle East I came across this extraordinary Christian-Muslim syncretism, this porousness of faith, where the ideas, practices and superstitions of one religion have trickled imperceptibly into another. But there was something else too. It wasn't just that in many places Christianity and Islam were still managing to coexist: seeing them together, and seeing the way the Eastern Christians practised their faith, brought home quite how closely the two faiths are really linked.

Today the West often views Islam as a civilisation very different from and indeed innately hostile to Christianity. Only when you travel in Christianity's Eastern homelands do you realise how closely the two are really connected, the former growing directly out of the latter and still, to this day, embodying many aspects and practices of the early Christian world now lost in Christianity's modern Western-based incarnation. When the early Byzantines were first confronted by the Prophet's armies, they assumed that Islam was merely an heretical form of Christianity, and in many ways they were not so far wrong: Islam accepts much of the Old and New Testaments and venerates both Jesus and the ancient Jewish prophets.

Significantly, the greatest and most subtle theologian of the early church, St. John Damascene, was convinced that Islam was at root not a separate religion, but instead a form of Christianity. St. John had grown up in the Ummayad Arab court of Damascus, where his father was chancellor, and he was an intimate boyhood friend of the future Caliph al-Yazid; the two boys' drinking bouts in the streets of Damascus were the subject of much horrified gossip in the streets of the new Islamic capital.

Later, in his old age, John took the habit at the desert monastery of Mar Saba where he began work on his great masterpiece, a refutation of heresies entitled the Fount of Knowledge. The book contains an extremely precise and detailed critique of Islam, the first ever written by a Christian, which, intriguingly, John regarded as a form of Christian heresy related to Arianism: after all Arianism, like Islam, denied the divinity of Christ. Although he lived at the very hub of the early Islamic world, it never seems to have occurred to him that Islam might be a separate religion. If a theologian of the stature of John Damascene was able to regard Islam as a new- if heretical- form of Christianity, it helps to explain how Islam was able to convert so much of the Middle Eastern population in so short a time, even though Christianity remained the majority religion until the time of the Crusades.


The longer you spend in the Christian communities of the Middle East, the more you become aware of the extent to which Eastern Christian practice formed the template for what were to become the basic conventions of Islam. The Muslim form of prayer with its bowings and prostrations appears to derive from the older Syrian Orthodox tradition that is still practised in pewless churches across the Levant. The architecture of the earliest minarets, which are square rather than round, unmistakably derive from the church towers of Byzantine Syria. The Sufi Muslim tradition carried on directly from the point that the Christian Desert Fathers left off while Ramadan, at first sight one of the most foreign and alienating of Islamic practices, is in fact nothing more than an Islamicisation of Lent, which in the Eastern Christian churches still involves a gruelling all-day fast.

Certainly if a monk from sixth century Byzantium were to come back today it is probable that he would find much more that was familiar in the practices and beliefs of a modern Muslim Sufi than he would with, say, a contemporary American Evangelical. Yet this simple truth has been lost by our tendency to think of Christianity as a thoroughly Western religion rather than the Oriental faith which by origin it actually is. Moreover the modern demonisation of Islam in the West, particularly since the Second World War and the foundation of the western-backed State of Israel, together with the recent growth of Muslim fundamentalism (itself in many ways a reaction to the West's repeated humiliation of the Muslim world) have led to an atmosphere where few in either camp are aware of, or indeed wish to be aware of, the profound kinship of Christianity and Islam.


It is this as much as anything else that has made the delicate position of the contemporary Eastern Christians increasingly untenable in recent years, as they find themselves awkwardly caught between their co-religionists in the West and their strong cultural links with their Muslims compatriots. Hence the vital importance of the popular syncretism which still exists at shrines like Seidnaya and Cyrrhus, and which was once much more general across the Middle East. The practice emphasises an important truth about the close affinity of the two great religions easily forgotten as the Eastern Christians- the last surviving bridge between Islam and Western Christianity- emigrate in reaction to the increasing hostility of the Islamic establishment.


Yet this kinship between the different religions of the book is something Muslim writers have been aware of for centuries. The thirteenth century Sufi Jalal-ud Din Rumi, perhaps the greatest of all the mystical writers of Islam, lived in a town in Central Anatolia in which the population was almost equally divided between Muslims, Christians and Jews.
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For more info on what William has said, one can also go online/look up an article he did under the name of "Op-Ed Contributor - Sufis - The Muslims in the Middle - NYTimes.com"().

 

[ForceofTime]

Have you personally ever had any friends or family who've experienced the same dynamics you did when looking for one thing and ending up running into Jesus?

What you said reminded me of the old saying "Not all roads lead to God---but God can meet us on any road." If you've ever heard of the book entitled "The Shack" (more discussed here) , the book at one point noted how God denied that all roads lead to him (since most roads lead nowhere) but says instead, “I will travel any road to find you.”

No, unfortunately I have not; at least, they have not revealed it to me if they had.

Concerning The Shack: yes, I have read the book. But concerning the saying, I recall a sermon wherein Leonard Ravenhill told a story of when Keith Green asked him the question, "Hey Pops, y'know where all roads lead?"
"No, I don't."
"To the Judgment Seat."

I agree with that. God bless and take care, Easy G!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No, unfortunately I have not; at least, they have not revealed it to me if they had.

Got ya...

Concerning The Shack: yes, I have read the book. But concerning the saying, I recall a sermon wherein Leonard Ravenhill told a story of when Keith Green asked him the question, "Hey Pops, y'know where all roads lead?"
"No, I don't."

"To the Judgment Seat."

I agree with that.

Awesome quote by Keith Green--one of my heros in the faith, as his ministry was amazing!!!

God bless and take care, Easy G!

Blessings to you as well, Friend. Shalom