More states are considering bills allowing medically assisted death this year

[ThatRobGuy]

https://www.axios.com/2024/02/09/medically-assisted-death-states

A push to let physicians prescribe life-ending drugs to terminally ill patients is getting major attention in statehouses this year, with lawmakers in 19 states considering bills to allow the practice.

These bills typically allow people with six months or less to live to request prescriptions from a doctor that they can take at home if and when they decide to end their lives. Doctors can only prescribe the drugs to patients they deem mentally competent.


Having watched both my father and aunt struggle and suffer through the final months of cancer... I, for one, see these moves as a good thing.

I think more and more, people have seen first hand how nasty "dying naturally" can be in certain circumstances, and while the common theory is "oh, well there's end of life drugs that can help keep people comfortable", I think until someone sees first-hand how that actually plays out in many cases, they don't realize that the claim of "hospice care will keep them comfortable" is exaggerated. (what I saw certainly didn't look like any resembling comfort)

On this particular topic, we're actually more humane to pets/animals than we are to family members. If a person's dog has cancer, can't eat, and is in tremendous pain, people don't hire a dog nurse to stop by the house every 3 hours to pump it full of morphine until it throws up while the family stands around and watches, it's viewed as the compassionate thing to do to have the dog put to sleep. Yet, the described scenario is how we send off many of our fellow humans.

 

[Occams Barber]

https://www.axios.com/2024/02/09/medically-assisted-death-states

A push to let physicians prescribe life-ending drugs to terminally ill patients is getting major attention in statehouses this year, with lawmakers in 19 states considering bills to allow the practice.

These bills typically allow people with six months or less to live to request prescriptions from a doctor that they can take at home if and when they decide to end their lives. Doctors can only prescribe the drugs to patients they deem mentally competent.


Having watched both my father and aunt struggle and suffer through the final months of cancer... I, for one, see these moves as a good thing.

I think more and more, people have seen first hand how nasty "dying naturally" can be in certain circumstances, and while the common theory is "oh, well there's end of life drugs that can help keep people comfortable", I think until someone sees first-hand how that actually plays out in many cases, they don't realize that the claim of "hospice care will keep them comfortable" is exaggerated. (what I saw certainly didn't look like any resembling comfort)

On this particular topic, we're actually more humane to pets/animals than we are to family members. If a person's dog has cancer, can't eat, and is in tremendous pain, people don't hire a dog nurse to stop by the house every 3 hours to pump it full of morphine until it throws up while the family stands around and watches, it's viewed as the compassionate thing to do to have the dog put to sleep. Yet, the described scenario is how we send off many of our fellow humans.

After going through three lingering cancer deaths (both parents and a sister) I absolutely agree.

While Christians have every right to reject assisted dying for themselves, they have no right to deprive others of a dignified death based on their particular doctrine.

Voluntary assisted dying is available in all Australian states under strict rules.

OB

 

[FireDragon76]

Embracing the notion that life is disposable, I am afraid, is another sign of a society that has abandoned any spiritual significance to the more difficult aspects of life.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Embracing the notion that life is disposable, I am afraid, is another sign of a society that has abandoned any spiritual significance to the more difficult aspects of life.

What about the above posts indicated that any one thinks life is "disposable"? The 5 examples given are like the vast majorities of such cases considered, lingering and painful deaths exhibiting the potential for vast amounts of suffering.

 

[FireDragon76]

What about the above posts indicated that any one thinks life is "disposable"? The 5 examples given are like the vast majorities of such cases considered, lingering and painful deaths exhibiting the potential for vast amounts of suffering.

Euthanasia isn't a proper substitute for good hospice care. This kind of legislation is preying on peoples fears and ignorance, rather than the facts about how pain can be managed in a person's last days.

 

[Occams Barber]

Embracing the notion that life is disposable,

An emotive argument. Allowing some control, in exceptional circumstances, is not embracing the notion that life is disposable.

another sign of a society that has abandoned any spiritual significance to the more difficult aspects of life.

"Spiritual significance" is a meaningless term in this context. The issue is about unnecessarily prolonging suffering and allowing for a death with dignity. The significance is humanitarian - not spiritual.

From my personal point of view, my life is mine to dispose of as I see fit. I extend the same right to you.

OB

 

[FireDragon76]

An emotive argument. Allowing some control, in exceptional circumstances, is not embracing the notion that life is disposable.

"Spiritual significance" is a meaningless term in this context. The issue is about unnecessarily prolonging suffering

Legitimate hospice care can involved pain medication, even medications that might shorten a person's life. It's called the principle of double effect, and has been widespread in medical ethics for some time.

and allowing for a death with dignity.

Now you are lecturing me about emotivism? There's no dignity to a person deciding to be snuffed out, and having a doctor assist them. It compromises the medical profession's ethics.

The significance is humanitarian - not spiritual.

There's nothing humane about seeing death as a solution to pain and suffering.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Euthanasia isn't a proper substitute for good hospice care. This kind of legislation is preying on peoples fears and ignorance, rather than the facts about how pain can be managed in a person's last days.

The problem is, is that there's no such thing as "good hospice care"

That's not a slight on the hospice nurses who have a very tough job, my hat goes off to them for the very tough job they have.

It's a statement of the fact that there's no way to put lipstick on the reality that the ending phases of stage 4 cancer involve levels of pain, nausea, and suffering... for which there are no "magic pills" that make it a pleasant process.

- you can't give liquid morphine to someone who can't keep anything down
- there's no way to keep someone comfortable who has lungs that are 60% filled with fluid
- there's no pain killer known to man that will address failing liver, kidneys, lungs


But even if there was a "magic pill" that addressed it, how is "numbing the discomfort" for 4 months any better or more ethical than just letting a person go out on their own terms before it gets that bad? (when the end result is the same)

Explain, in plain terms, how drugging someone for 3 months (while they're still miserable and struggling to breath and not vomit - and then die) better than just letting the person skip passed that terrible last 3 months? (when, again, the end result is the same)

Nobody's saying that "life is disposable", we're talking about lives that were going to end anyway, and giving people the option of skipping the most terrible parts of the last phase.

 

[Laodicean60]

I'd do it in a heartbeat if I couldn't take care of myself. I took care of my mom and I wouldn't wish that hardship on any of my kids. My mom begged me to not send her to a nursing home because she saw the conditions when her sister was at one and for me, I don't want to pay for it. I have it planned out though. I stick a garden hose in the exhaust pipe and run into the car, turn on some music with a bottle of whiskey and wala. I would prefer the needle though.

 

[Occams Barber]

Euthanasia isn't a proper substitute for good hospice care. This kind of legislation is preying on peoples fears and ignorance, rather than the facts about how pain can be managed in a person's last days.

Rob talked about some of the medical realities of palliative care in post #8..

There is also a psychological side. Being unable to wash yourself or attend to your own toileting. Needing someone to clean you up after vomiting or losing control of your bowels or bladder. Needing to be fed or watered or moved in bed to avoid bedsores and discomfort. The overall sense of total loss of control and independence. Living in a state of semi-consciousness. Even the lack of intellectual stimulation and boredom becomes another weight to carry.

These are just some of the factors leading to a sense of lost dignity and control over your life and, for many of us, these things are extremely important.

Like Rob, I have a huge respect and admiration for those who attend the dying, however there is a limit to what palliative care can solve. This is assuming, of course, that we all have access to (and can afford) high quality palliative care.

OB

 

[Unqualified]

Oxygen helps your breathing and morphine helps the pain. If you want to hurry it along stop eating. Doctors want you to run away from a very real experience that could turn one to Christ or make them very grateful to be in heaven having obeyed God. But what about my wife with nerve pain, she won’t do it and would welcome morphine even now. My parents took hospice and natural death. We follow their example as in life long marriage.

we Don’t know what’s down the road but don’t want to preclude Gods working and goodness. God is not a God of defeat. But of victory. Sure give it to those who have no hope. It won’t make the world a better place just go further to corruption and weakness. My wife’s not terminal they won’t give it to the suffering otherwise. Not all the suffering can have it, so there’s a big dichotomy In their presentation as a humanitarian thing.

 

[Occams Barber]

Oxygen helps your breathing and morphine helps the pain. If you want to hurry it along stop eating. Doctors want you to run away from a very real experience that could turn one to Christ or make them very grateful to be in heaven having obeyed God. But what about my wife with nerve pain, she won’t do it and would welcome morphine even now. My parents took hospice and natural death. We follow their example as in life long marriage.

we Don’t know what’s down the road but don’t want to preclude Gods working and goodness. God is not a God of defeat. But of victory. Sure give it to those who have no hope. It won’t make the world a better place just go further to corruption and weakness. My wife’s not terminal they won’t give it to the suffering otherwise. Not all the suffering can have it, so there’s a big dichotomy In their presentation as a humanitarian thing.

My problem is not with those who do not wish to take advantage of any Voluntary Assisted Dying scheme. i.e. voluntary euthanasia.

I do however have a big problem with those who wish to prevent others from accessing a voluntary dying scheme by blocking the passage of enabling legislation.

Fortunately, we (Australia) have introduced legalised assistance, in all states, under a strict set of rules and limitations.

OB

 

[Unqualified]

My problem is not with those who do not wish to take advantage of any Voluntary Assisted Dying scheme. i.e. voluntary euthanasia.

I do however have a big problem with those who wish to prevent others from accessing a voluntary dying scheme by blocking the passage of enabling legislation.

Fortunately, we (Australia) have introduced legalised assistance, in all states, under a strict set of rules and limitations.

OB

itsmurder suicide. You can’t repent if you aren’t living. I haven’t voted for it. But it’s legal here too. Last final act of rebellion. It is spiritual! Two sides to every story.

 

[Occams Barber]

itsmurder suicide. You can’t repent if you aren’t living.

No - its assisted suicide. Murder occurs where a person is killed without legal justification.

Since I don't accept your God's rules, repentance is not an issue.

Why should your religious beliefs interfere with my right to a dignified death without excessive suffering?

OB

 

[FireDragon76]

The problem is, is that there's no such thing as "good hospice care"

That's not a slight on the hospice nurses who have a very tough job, my hat goes off to them for the very tough job they have.

It's a statement of the fact that there's no way to put lipstick on the reality that the ending phases of stage 4 cancer involve levels of pain, nausea, and suffering... for which there are no "magic pills" that make it a pleasant process.

Is everything valuable and worth doing in life pleasant? You are making that assumption, not me.

- you can't give liquid morphine to someone who can't keep anything down

That's why morphine can be given intravenously. Duh.

 

[7thKeeper]

Embracing the notion that life is disposable, I am afraid, is another sign of a society that has abandoned any spiritual significance to the more difficult aspects of life.

So, to show that we have "spiritual significance to the more difficult aspects", you'd prefer that people suffer and be miserable in their dying days?

 

[FireDragon76]

So, to show that we have "spiritual significance to the more difficult aspects", you'd prefer that people suffer and be miserable in their dying days?

That's a strawman and an appeal to an extreme. It's not a serious objection.

 

[7thKeeper]

That's a strawman and an appeal to an extreme. It's not a serious objection.

It points out a glaring problem with that objection. As others have already pointed out, those last days can be very miserable with the loss of control and pain. Yes, even with pain medication because they only go so far. My wife's relative died in pain even with all the pain medication pumped into her, because the pain was just too strong and anymore medication would have killed her in an overdose. Allowing the option to end it while things are relatively good is the humane and compassionate choice. Not disallowing it because of "spiritual significance".

 

[Whyayeman]

Many of us have experience of the last days of loved ones. For most of us that has meant witnessing the valiant work of professionals administering palliative care. Even without proper legislation palliative care routinely shortens patients' lives, as one doctor supervising the care of a dying relative pointed out. The administration of morphine hastens the end. We accepted that giving morphine was justified, but were in no doubt that it was a kind of euthenasia by the back door and legally dubious.

I am in favour of having a more humane law which would allow terminal patients the right to decide for themselves when to die. It should be our last freedom.

Medical interventions prolonging life beyond a reasonable threshold have moral implications for patients and their families - and the medical profession too. Medical ethics have long espoused the principle of not to 'strive officiously'.

 

[Nithavela]

Oxygen helps your breathing and morphine helps the pain. If you want to hurry it along stop eating. Doctors want you to run away from a very real experience that could turn one to Christ or make them very grateful to be in heaven having obeyed God. But what about my wife with nerve pain, she won’t do it and would welcome morphine even now. My parents took hospice and natural death. We follow their example as in life long marriage.

we Don’t know what’s down the road but don’t want to preclude Gods working and goodness. God is not a God of defeat. But of victory. Sure give it to those who have no hope. It won’t make the world a better place just go further to corruption and weakness. My wife’s not terminal they won’t give it to the suffering otherwise. Not all the suffering can have it, so there’s a big dichotomy In their presentation as a humanitarian thing.

And there we have it. "It might turn you to my religion, so you have to suffer".