More states are considering bills allowing medically assisted death this year

[ThatRobGuy]

1. I am not going to go into detail. 20 years ago I had afib and they put in a defibulator pacemaker. Recently I passed out and the doctor told me I would have died but the defibulator revived me. But they said I had VTech. This is a life threatening situation and the doctor must of felt I was going to die. Anyways, don't believe me, I do not care. I do not want to talk to a skeptic about my situation.

That doesn't really sound like physician assisted suicide as much as it does perhaps an incorrect assessment by a doctor confusing a-fib with ventricular tachycardia.

That'd be like saying a "a doctor was trying to get me to kill myself" in a situation where an ER doctor (who are often newer doctors --many of which still doing their residency --, and who wouldn't be as intimately familiar with someone's medical history as their normal doctor) accidentally overlooked a medication interaction between something they were giving them there, and another medication they were already taking.

That's a far cry from what's being discussed in this thread.

Furthermore, given that this is a discussion & debate forum, it's not the right forum if you're seeking to avoid skepticism with regards to stated claims.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Come on now... If people really want to kill themselves, they can do it the old fashioned way. They do not need the state or medical profession to ultimately help them. What this is really about, is a culture of albeism and ageism seeking to normalize those attitudes into law.



In every country that these kinds of laws have been enacted in, it's ultimately affected more than people in their final weeks.

As to the assertion if people really wanted to kill themselves they would do it the old fashion way one thing about medical assisted is that they put the natural cause of death on the death certificate that means that if the person has a life insurance policy that does not pay out in cases of suicide the family can still get the money because it goes down as cancer or whatever the natural cause was; whereas even if the same person took those same pills for that same reason ( they were terminal anyway) but they did so not "medical assisted they would put suicide on the death certificate. Many of these laws actually require that the person still be able to actually TAKE the medication themselves, so literally all the doctor is doing is prescribing them a single lethal dose it may well be the SAME pain medication they have been taking except that the doctor prescribed a single dose to be taken with the understanding and intention that the result will be death.

 

[dzheremi]

I watched cancer destroy my mother for 18 months and was with her when she died (and Hepatic Encephalopathy destroy my father for five years, three of which I lived with him and was his primary caretaker), and I'm still against this sort of thing. Suicide is cowardly, and I also don't trust that my wishes would be respected if I were ever in a situation where I couldn't verbalize them anymore (yes, even with an advance medical directive in place; it's amazing how often those are ignored when someone else thinks they know better than you/imposes their own ideas about "quality of life" on you as though you are not a person -- something which I've faced literally my entire life, since I'm disabled).

 

[Landon Caeli]

If it's good enough for the dog it's good enough for me? Uh, no, I'll take the double-dose of morphine, and the final moments with my loved ones.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I watched cancer destroy my mother for 18 months and was with her when she died (and Hepatic Encephalopathy destroy my father for five years, three of which I lived with him and was his primary caretaker), and I'm still against this sort of thing. Suicide is cowardly, and I also don't trust that my wishes would be respected if I were ever in a situation where I couldn't verbalize them anymore (yes, even with an advance medical directive in place; it's amazing how often those are ignored when someone else thinks they know better than you/imposes their own ideas about "quality of life" on you as though you are not a person -- something which I've faced literally my entire life, since I'm disabled).

As to your wishes being ignored usually with these laws the person who is looking for assistance dying HAVE to A be able to indicate it at that time ( advance directives are not an issue because it cannot be done unless the person knows what he or she is doing AT THE time and two usually the person must be able to take the medication on their own if a person have to be given the medication through an IV or something like that they cannot do this.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

If it's good enough for the dog it's good enough for me? Uh, no, I'll take the double-dose of morphine, and the final moments with my loved ones.

No one is suggesting anything that would deny you the opportunity to have your final moments with your loved ones. In fact, you'd have the opportunity to be present (mentally) for those moments, rather than subjecting them to watch you for weeks or months insensate, in pain, and struggling to breathe. Personally, I'd prefer the former.

 

[dogs4thewin]

If it's good enough for the dog it's good enough for me? Uh, no, I'll take the double-dose of morphine, and the final moments with my loved ones.

something like morphine is usually what they prescribe and you usually have to be able to actually TAKE it without assistance.

 

[Landon Caeli]

something like morphine is usually what they prescribe and you usually have to be able to actually TAKE it without assistance.

My mom was administered it by a hospice care worker, who came to the house until she let go, and went ahead and died.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If it's good enough for the dog it's good enough for me? Uh, no, I'll take the double-dose of morphine, and the final moments with my loved ones.

...I think you're perhaps using some rose colored glasses in how you're picturing those "final moments" going with the hospice/morphine approach you're speaking of with regards to certain types of cancer and terminal illness.

It's by no means a good experience in many cases (for the patient, nor for the family).

As someone who witnessed it first-hand when my dad was in hospice care, those last 3 weeks of time were not good "final moments" (unless you like to see a grown man squirming and yelling "i can't breath, please help", while your mom cries and trembles on the couch saying "i don't know what to do, he keeps throwing up when I tried to give him the meds and the nurse won't be here for another 45 minutes")

 

[Landon Caeli]

...I think you're perhaps using some rose colored glasses in how you're picturing those "final moments" going with the hospice/morphine approach you're speaking of.

It's by no means a good experience (for the patient, no the family).

As someone who witnessed it first-hand when my dad was in hospice care, those last 3 weeks of time were not good "final moments" (unless you like to see a grown man squirming and yelling "i can't breath, please help", while your mom cries and trembles on the couch saying "i don't know what to do, he keeps throwing up when I tried to give him the meds and the nurse won't be here for another 45 minutes")

I know all about it. Some say pancreatic cancer is the most painful of all cancers. That's what my mom had.

Is Pancreatic Cancer the Most Painful?

Pancreatic cancer is one of the most painful types of cancer because it invades and presses on the nerves near the pancreas leading to pain in the back or abdomen. Pain seems to be the most distressing symptom in patients with pancreatic cancer.

www.medicinenet.com

 

[dogs4thewin]

My mom was administered it by a hospice care worker.

It depends, but usually they have to it if that is the direct intention. Now, if for example someone say gives them a dose and an hour or two later gives them another dose because either A the person does not know when the last time they had medication or B the terminally ill person asks for it and the person figures what difference does it make they are going to die anyway so they give them another dose early that happens sometimes , but as far as giving someone a single lethal dose usually under the law the person have to actually take it. Now, granted because in those situations they are not going to investigate the cause of death or any kind of test the person (that gave the double dose could probably get away with it and frankly even if they did not there would likely be some judies if the case went to trial that would find the person NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter under those facts, but usually under the letter of the law that would be illegal.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

As someone who witnessed it first-hand when my dad was in hospice care, those last 3 weeks of time were not good "final moments" (unless you like to see a grown man squirming and yelling "i can't breath, please help", while your mom cries and trembles on the couch saying "i don't know what to do, he keeps throwing up when I tried to give him the meds and the nurse won't be here for another 45 minutes")

Yeah, my mom taking care of her aunt, both parents, and her sister through terminal illnesses all before I was 30 definitely put things into perspective for me.

 

[dzheremi]

As to your wishes being ignored usually with these laws the person who is looking for assistance dying HAVE to A be able to indicate it at that time ( advance directives are not an issue because it cannot be done unless the person knows what he or she is doing AT THE time and two usually the person must be able to take the medication on their own if a person have to be given the medication through an IV or something like that they cannot do this.

Okay, well there's the law as it's supposed to function, and then there's what can happen in the real world. That was my point in linking to the study that shows that 60%+ of doctors and residents will administer care that is not in keeping with the patient's wishes, out of their own concern for the patient's quality of life or other concerns. They're not supposed to be able to do that, and yet it still happens. I have no reason to believe that similar things would magically not happen with regard to these assisted suicide laws. To me, this is a box that just shouldn't be opened.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Okay, well there's the law as it's supposed to function, and then there's what can happen in the real world. That was my point in linking to the study that shows that 60%+ of doctors and residents will administer care that is not in keeping with the patient's wishes, out of their own concern for the patient's quality of life or other concerns. They're not supposed to be able to do that, and yet it still happens. I have no reason to believe that similar things would magically not happen with regard to these assisted suicide laws. To me, this is a box that just shouldn't be opened.

that is a good point, but then again under that logic it could happen anyway (that people do it out of concern for the ill person's wellbeing) as I pointed out above in a lot of those cases at issue people may could get away with giving them a lethal dose anyway as usually when someone gets to the point we are discussing the death would not be the least bit suspicious. I mean for example with my father it was not hard to figure out the man died as a result of metastatic colon cancer the only reason we needed to be "told" that was as a matter of policy and not because gee I wonder how M died.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I know all about it. Some say pancreatic cancer is the most painful of all cancers. That's what my mom had.

Is Pancreatic Cancer the Most Painful?

Pancreatic cancer is one of the most painful types of cancer because it invades and presses on the nerves near the pancreas leading to pain in the back or abdomen. Pain seems to be the most distressing symptom in patients with pancreatic cancer.

www.medicinenet.com

But there's no one-size-fits all approach here...

While some people may do better and be able to be kept relatively comfortable with the approach you describe, others may not.

Different cancers have different rates of metastases to different organs. (it's a critical distinction when it comes to cancers that have a propensity to higher rates of lung metastases -- and more severe extent of lung metastases... same is true for the stomach)

If a patient has a metastatic stage IV cancer, but the metastases hasn't occurred to the lungs or stomach, or is minimal, then it's quite feasible that incrementally increasing use of pain management drugs can keep someone fairly comfortable through the process... the same isn't true for extensive lung & stomach metastases, as pain is the secondary source of discomfort behind the feeling of not being able to breath and the extreme nausea (which nausea itself is already a side effect of morphine, so giving it to a person who's already nauseous leads to the predictable outcome of vomiting and dry heaving)

 

[Hans Blaster]

Suicide is cowardly,

Why should someone else decide you can't be cowardly?