Jerry kelso said:
1. Tell me what scripture in the Old Testament that says the New Covenant Church would be raptured at the Second Coming? Acts 1 when he said he'd come back as he left?
This is true in Zechariah 14 when he gathers all the nations against Jerusalem to battle and fights against those nations when he steps his feet on the Mount of Olives. This is the Day of the Lord and will be the Battle of Armageddon.
There is no physical resurrection here.
One of the problems here is you act as thought everything on this topic should be spelled out in great detail on any point I make and points you make should be just understood as you see them without the same requirement for detail.
Example: You claim there can be no resurrection at the second coming after the tribulation because it is not specifically mentioned in passages such as Zechariah 14 but you ignore points I make such as 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 which mentions the trumpet but does not mention the clouds or even the Lord Himself is not mentioned yet we all agree He will be present at the resurrection whenever it is.
The point is just because a detail is included or excluded from a passage on the coming of the Lord is not an argument that holds up.
2. The believers resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 living and dead saints is a mystery, verse 51.
This means it was a mystery to the Old Testament saints completely and a mystery to the early church till Paul revealed it in the Corinthian Church at least till Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean of the mystery of the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body Acts 10:48. This was 8-10 years after the Day of Pentecost.
Paul just added more detail such as living believers will be changed. The old testament believers still believed in a resurrection at the last day, Daniel 12:1-4, Job 19:25-26.
3. The Jews in Jesus day were still under the Old Covenant and they understood the resurrection of the last day John 5:24.
Exactly, and there is only one resurrection in our future for God’s people but you have already claimed there is not one at the second coming at the last day, were the OT saints wrong about the timing?
Jesus said clearly 3 times in John 6 He would raise those that believe on Him at the last day that is not the last day before the great tribulation it is THE LAST DAY of this world system at His second coming.
Hebrews 6:1-2 talks about leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ was the law of Moses.
To go onto perfection was the New Covenant.
Hebrews is about the contrast of the Old and New Covenants because of which pressure was coming to push them back in the Old Covenant etc.
Verse 2 says they were not to lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith toward God, doctrines of baptisms, eternal judgement and Resurrection of the Dead. These were Old Testament doctrines.
The author of Hebrews were telling this to Jewish New Covenant believers. The rapture of the church was a mystery to the Old Covenant Jews and New Covenant Jews until revealed to them by Paul.
Hebrews mentions baptisms, plural and resurrection of the dead singular. There is one resurrection of the righteous dead in our future and it is at the last day, at His coming. Paul did not reveal a separate resurrection; He only gave more detail about the only resurrection for the righteous God has planned.
4. The last resurrected believers are found in Revelation 15:1-2 and they are Hebrew believers that sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb who got victory over the Beast, his image, his mark and number of his name. These are the same company as in Revelation 20:4-6. This is the last of the resurrected believers in the First Resurrection Revelation 20:5.
You make a lot of assumptions here for someone who requires detail in coming of the Lord passages.
1. Where in revelation 15:1-2 does it say anything about Hebrew believers? This is all believers who have gotten the victory over the beast not just Hebrews.
2. You assume there is a resurrection here, but one is not mentioned, shall we use your standard here? It is not mentioned therefore it cannot be. Read Revelation13:15 then ask yourself is it not only possible but very likely that those in Revelation 15 got there through death and are not resurrected saints at all?
3. John says in Revelation 20:4 “I saw the souls” he did not say I saw the resurrected tribulation saints. This is his mention of seeing that group in heaven; he does not describe the resurrection as happening at that time he just refers to the FIRST resurrection in verse 6 should we ASSUME the first resurrection includes only tribulation saints?
No rapture of living believers and the dead coming out of Heaven with Christ to meet in the air right before the Wrath of God or on the day of the Lord.
Jesus said the resurrection would be on the last day. When do you think the last day is?
5. Revelation 5:4; the 24 elders who represent the Old and New Testament saints are clothed in white and crowns of Gold and in verse 10 where they are casting their crowns before the throne.
Again you make a lot of assumptions here.
1. You assume the 24 represent Old and New Testament saints. Nothing in scripture says that. Jesus and angels wear white. Unresurrected souls in heaven wear white Revelation 6:11
2. You left out the four beasts who also had harps and sang the new song, and claim they are redeemed (KJV) who do you think they represent?
Revelation 5:9-10 the four beasts and the 24 elders are praising God and saying they were redeemed to God by his blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and Nations.
Read Rev 5 in the ASV
Rev 5:7 And he came, and he [d]taketh it out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.
11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 saying with a great voice,Worthy is the Lamb that hath been slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might, and honor, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, [e]for ever and ever.
14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and [f]worshipped.
I submit to you the 24 elders are not resurrected anyone they are members of Gods heavenly hosts , created beings just like the angels and the four beasts or living creatures in this passage. If you want to stick with the KJV on this passage you must answer how the 4 beasts are redeemed by the blood of Jesus and are made kings and priests and will reign on the earth. The ASV in my opinion translates this passage correctly.
The church is in Heaven resurrected before the tribulation, during the tribulation being judged for their works Revelation 11:18
The scene of Revelation 11:18 is on earth not in heaven. I pointed out earlier there are no angry nations in heaven. What is your response here?
and at the Marriage Supper in Heaven dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of the saints getting ready to go to the marriage Supper of the Great God Revelation 19:17.
Funny you picked Revelation 19:17 to make your point, read verse 18:
Rev. 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
This “supper of the great God” is one of flesh, at Armageddon! Shall we have that “biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together” conversation now?
You are trying to convince me that they are not resurrected yet?
Absolutely I am, you cannot show any evidence without just assuming it there are any resurrected saints in heaven at any time.
Even if the resurrection happened of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 at the end of the tribulation the latest would be before the last 7 vials and the Day of the Lord which happens at the Battle of Armageddon which is the 7th Vial.
For now I rest my case, looking for real response to the points I’ve made here.
Now you can disagree but you can't prove the scriptural proof of the pre-tribulation scripture.
There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture!
You need to learn proper biblical hermeneutics and properly reconciling scriptures and their contexts together. Jerry kelso
Good advice!
postvieww,
1. I have studied your position as well so I am not one sided.
Zechariah is the talking about the Day of the Lord which is Christ coming from Heaven to earth to the Mount of Olives. This is the 2 be coming and is a different nature than the rapture of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
We have Old Testament scriptures to show the Second Coming as a day of vengeance not the resurrection.
I didn't ignore 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and the last Trump is not the same trumpet as in Revelation and there is no cloud that Christ comes back with dead saints from Heaven on the day of the Second Coming to receive believers.
You are trying to contrive them together and cannot scripturally.
You are going by the perception of the last Trump of 1 Corinthians 15 and Revelation 11:15 when you don't understand the context.
I understand passages can have certain details and another more details but that has nothing to do with the point I made.
1Corinthians 15:51 shows this resurrection was a mystery. This is in the New Testament and was different than the last day resurrection which was an Old Testament doctrine John 5:27, Hebrews 6:1-2. Those New Covenant believers were told not to do the Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the dead Hebrews 6:1-2 so the mystery of 1 Corinthians 15 rapture is not more details. So your more detail is merely being contrived and is contradictory.
2. Daniel 12:1-4;
The people written in the book have to with the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble verse 1.
Verse 2 is a general usage of the resurrection not the timing. All the sinners wil not be resurrected till 1000 years after the 1st resurrection which are the tribulation saints in Revelation 15:1-2 which are resurrected before the 7 vials are poured out and Armageddon begins which is the Second Coming.
Job 19:25-26.
Job knew that his redeemer live th and that he would stand at the latter day of the earth. He also knew he would see God in his flesh.
He didn't give a time factor on him being raised on that latter day.
I have already discussed the differences between the Old and New Testament on the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and why the New Covenant Jewish believers in Hebrews were not to continue to believe them.
They were also not believe in Old Testament doctrines of baptism but that that doesn't mean there is no such thing as a New Testament doctrine of Baptism and it is not the same with more detail.
3. The Old Testament Jews understood the last day resurrection but not in full. They didn't even know about the church of Jews and Gentiles in one body of Christ.
In Jesus day they didn't know what the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was in his earthly message of the KoH and the KoG. It wasn't till after they rejected him that he started to reveal plainly.
The Old Covenant believers didn't even have the book of Revelation.
Many believe Jewish believers only from all time won't be resurrected till the last day. Even if that were true the latest would be before the last 7 vials and the Day of the Lord.
4. Revelation 15:1-2 are those that don't take the mark of the beast etc, and sing the song of Moses and the Lamb.
In Genesis Miriam sing the song of Moses under the Old Covenant about the Red Sea deliverance and the horse and rider.
In Revelation they are New Covenant believing Jews for God delivers them again.
5. Jesus said Lazarus would rise again but not on a specific day Revelation 11:23. Martha mentioned the last day which was an Old Testament doctrine but she didn't know if it was the very last day or the season. It doesn't matter because things changed when the mystery of the rapture and resurrection was revealed by Paul.
6. I have already explained what the 1st coming was and what the 2nd Coming is and what the rapture is. You are assuming that because it is called the Coming it has to be the rapture and resurrection. You have no scripture to back up your assumption.
7. No assumptions on the rapture of the church, the Twenty elders or saints in white with crowns of Gold.
Revelation 1:19 is the time factor of Revelation.
Things that were was the vision of Jesus in the midst of the 7 Golden Candlesticks which were the 7 churches of Asia which represents the whole church age because Revelation is a prophecy Revelation 1:3.
Things that were present in Johns day was the 7 churches of Asia that represented all the church ages.
The things here after was after the church age for they are not seen in the tribulation which deals more with Israel's earthly calling according to the KoH which is connected all throughout their history.
Also, John is told tome up hither through the door of Heaven with a voice like a trumpet and the things thereafter would be shown to him, the First being Heaven with the thrones, the 24 elders, the four beasts.
Revelation 5 is the search for someone qualified to open the book which atarts the tribulation.
The four beasts are singing with those who are redeemed which are the 14 elders and have the prayers is saints verse 8. Verse 9, they sing a new song to the lamb.
Thou are worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain and has redeemed us to God by the blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. The 24 elders represent the Old and New Testament saints; 12 for the Old and 12 for the New.
The beasts worship around the throne all day and all night without ceasing Revelation 4:8.
The elders are redeemed for they are dressed in white which is the righteousness of the saints Revelation 4:4. Revelation 5:10 these elders will reign on earth as Kings and Priests.
Revelation 19:8-10 was the fellow servant of God that John was going to worship him and was of his brethren that had the testimony of Jesus which was the spirit of prophecy verse 10. The beasts are not man.
8. Revelation 11:18 is being spoken at this time just like verse 15 but they are not fulfilled until a little bit later.
The first part of verse 18 will happen on earth with the anger of the nations.
The rewards of the prophets and saints which are in Heaven are the believers judgements of works Romans 14:101 Corinthians 3:11-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10.
9. The marriage Supper of the Great God is the Battle of Armageddon. There is nothing contradictory about verse 17&18.
10. All the saints from Adam to the last of the tribulation saints who will be resurrected by the time of right before the vials. The only Resurrection after this time is one thousand literal yeas laters for the sinners Revelation 20: 5.
11. There is a pre-trib rapture that is the resurrection at the same time as in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.
There is a rapture of the Manchild Revelation 12:6, 13 who is the 144,000 Jews from Revelation 7 who are preserved through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4 and are raptured to the Heavenly Mt. Sion Revelation 14:1-5.
The 2 witnesses are raptured according to Revelation 11:12 which I believe will be in the 2nd half of the tribulation though some believe will be the first half.
The blessed dead in Revelation 14:13 are the martyrs who didn't take the mark of the beast.
These dead believers are seen in Heaven and are connected to the First Resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
There are no implications or plain statements that says living believers are resurrected at the same time as those from Revelation 15:1-2.
You are trying to contrive and put 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 into Revelation 20:4-6.
There is no scripture that says the church age saints will have to go through the tribulation.
Why do you think the church will go through tribulation anyway?
Jerry kelso