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Featured MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by WailingWall, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The Old Testament often spoke of the coming of the promised great Messiah. But there were perplexing problems about these promises. Some of them described Him as a great conquering hero would would reign forever. But others spoke of Him as a meek and suffering servant, who would die for his people. But not a single one of them ever said He would come more than just one time.

    The Jewish scholars of New Testament days, loved the great conquering hero parts, so they studied them. But they neglected the meek, suffering, servant parts. So when He came as the meek and suffering servant, they failed to recognize Him, and fulfilled the scriptures in rejecting him.

    In the New testament, the Holy Spirit again did the same thing. He gave us two sets of descriptions about our Lord's return. He never told us that Our Lord would return more than just one time, but He showed it in the same way that He had showed it in the Old Testament, by making statements about our Lord's return that appeared to completely contradict each other. Some have counted as many as 50 differences between the scriptures about our Lord's return to take us to himself, and the scriptures about his return to judge the wicked. Many of these are only minor differences, bit a number of them are differences so great that it would be physically impossible to do both at the same time.

    So the scriptures indeed show us that the Lord is returning more than just once. But almost all arguments against the pre-tribulation rapture are based on a rank assumption that He is only returning one time. No scripture says this, but it is insisted upon as if the scriptures did indeed say it.

    So citing scriptures about the day of the Lord proved absolutely nothing about the timing of the rapture.
     
  2. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    I would be curious to see some of those things from scripture listed that it would be impossible for our Lord to do at the same time.
     
  3. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    1. Hebrews 9:28 is talking about the Second Coming after the tribulation.

    2. The first coming was when Christ came to earth as a child who was to have the government on his shoulders Isaiah 9:6.
    This didn't happen in this period for the Jews rejected him Matthew 23:37-39 and killed him Acts 2:23; 2:36; 4:10 via the hands of the Romans John 19:23-24.

    3. The second coming concerns the Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus offered Matthew 4:17 and is the same as the restitution of all things Acts 3:19.
    Acts 1:6-7 Peter and the disciples asked Christ about the KoH being restored and Jesus said it wasn't for them to know. Peter knew the signs of the KoH coming to fruition by his Day of Pentecost address.
    Of course Peter didn't understand the mystery of the church til 8-10 years later with the vision of the clean and unclean.
    The church was a mystery to the Jews but not the KoH.
    The church being raptured was a mystery to the Jews as well as the church itself 1 Corinthians 15:51.

    4. The 1st coming- Jesus earthly ministry-Jews-KoH-restitution of all things-rejected by Jews.

    5. The 2nd coming-Christ return with the Old Testament saints and the church era believers out of Heaven Revelation 19:11 to defeat the Kingdoms of the world Revelation 11:15;19:11-15 and restore Israel Isaiah 2:2-4; 66:7-9; Ezekiel 37:15-28; Daniel 12-1;Matthew 24; Roman's 11; 11-25-24; Revelation 12.

    6. The rapture of the church was not the 1st Coming for it had not started.
    The rapture of the church is not the 2nd coming because no one is raptured at the Second Coming.
    The last resurrection in the tribulation is in Revelation 15:1-2 which is the same as Revelation 20:4-6.
    Is is right before the 7 vials which is only for the Antichrist beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:2.

    7. Enoch was translated as a type of the church. Enoch was not in the flood.
    Those who sang the song of Moses and the lamb Revelation 15:1-2 were raptured but are not destroyed in the battle of Armageddon.
    God has order and his word is true.
    Enoch could have been preserved in the ark but he wasn't and it will be the same as the tribulation saints who could be preserved like the Jewish remnant but they aren't. Got to go! Jerry kelso
     
  4. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    What the scriptures do say about the coming of the Lord:

    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



    This passage states clearly it is about the second coming of Jesus Christ.


    Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.



    This passage clearly states Christ will be in heaven until the restitution of all things.



    Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



    This passage clearly states Jesus will come again in like manner that He left. He was taken up in a cloud and will return the same way. See Matthew 24:30, Matthew 24:64, Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62, Luke 21:27, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 1:7

    There is no reason in scripture to separate any of these coming references into separate comings of the Lord. They are one in the same coming and the only yet remaining coming of the Lord in our future.


    1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



    This passage clearly states the resurrection will take place at Christ’s coming and at that coming is the end of this world system and it’s rule and authority.

    We should harmonize these passages not divide them. If we focus on the so called minor differences we can come up with multiple comings of the Lord.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Well at the same time the living are caught up - the dead in Christ rise first. It doesn't say eternal bodies for them either in the text.... so what kind of bodies with they have, in you view?

    It does say that "so shall we ever be with the Lord" speaking of the resurrected dead in Christ and the living in Christ, caught up together to me the Lord in air.. So how is possible to ever be with the Lord in a temporal body - that lasts maybe a hundred years at the best?
     
  6. Postvieww

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    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    So are you saying this passage refers only to those left behind and turn to Christ after your pre-trib rapture? If you are that is not consistent with the context of Hebrews chapter 9

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    It is the church looking for the return of Christ. Your explanation of Hebrews 9:28 do not work.
     
  7. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

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  8. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, I'm not an eschatology buff. So take it with a grain of salt. To meet Jesus in the air is not Him coming all the way back to the earth. Beside, we come back with Him. How can we do that if we're not already their?
     
  9. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    1. I thought you were confused? Lol!
    The truth is you are confused.

    2. You think because there is a first coming and a second coming the rapture has to be the same as the second coming.
    That is not the case for the dead in Christ only come out of Heaven and the believers come from the earth to the clouds alive to meet them in the air. This is the rapture.
    At the second coming all the living believers from Adam to the tribulation saints come out of Heaven and go straight to the earth to the Battle of Armageddon.
    This is the Second Coming.
    The natures of these comings are of two different natures and purposes.

    3. They that are at Christ Coming is the rapture for we are to be looking for the Blessed Hope as Titus says.

    4. Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:8-10 shows all believers from Adam to the church believers are in Heaven during the tribulation.

    5. The 1st resurrection is all believers from Christ the firstfruits to the tribulation saints in Revelation 15:1-2 which is the same as in Revelation 20:4-6.

    6. Christ has to reign and put down all sin and rebellion 1000 years before he gives the kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Revelation 20:8:10.
    The second coming has no resurrection. The last resurrected believers of tribulation saints are before the Wrath of God Revelation 15:1;16:1-2.
    The 7th vial is the Battle of Armageddon.
    Furthermore, if the rapture took place in Revelation 19:11-15 the Jewish remnant would have to go up and then they would not be a remnant any longer. Jerry kelso
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.” This is reinforced by Joel 2:1-2, where we read that “For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.”

    This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.

    The first question in Malachi 3:2, “who can endure the day of His coming?” is radically different from the exhortation in 1 John 2:28, where we read, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” One scripture clearly shows that no one “can endure the day of His coming,” while another scripture just as clearly shows that it is possible to “have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same future day.

    The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” As we noticed before, one scripture clearly shows that no one “can stand when He appears,” while another tells us to “pray that you may be counted worthy... to stand before the Son of Man.” Are we to imagine that our God exhorted us to pray for something that could not happen? Or do we realize that these two scriptures refer to two different future times.

    Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

    But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.


    All these are indeed material differences between various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming But there is one that overshadows all the rest of them. In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all that we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not removed until after the time when “they that were ready went in with him.”

    But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are gathered before the righteous. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek text of these parables.) The contrast between these orders of events clearly indicates that the two parables are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

    In the explanation of the parable in Matthew 13, (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

    This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the just are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

    This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I have just posted a multitude of scriptural reasons for doing this.

    Actually, this passage does not state the timing of the resurrection, other than to say that the resurrection of "they that are Christ's at his coming" is after the resurrection od Christ (which was nearly 2000 years ago and the time when Christ delivers up the kingdom to God, (which will take place after the millennium.)
     
  12. Saint JOHN

    Saint JOHN New Member

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    Rapture !!?? (rupture ) NOT SCRIPTURAL...man made idea !!.... only one return then rule and reign for 1000 years..
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    It is legitimate to debate the timing of the rapture. But it is outright unbelief to deny that the event we call "the rapture" will take place. For the scriptures explicitly say it will take place, but do not explicitly state when it will take place, in relation to other end time events.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  14. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is this the day of the Lord?

    Psalm 18
    7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
    8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
    9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
    10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
    11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
    12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
    13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
    14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
    15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  15. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

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    In the Older Covenant Scripture, "The Day of the Lord" refers to the commission given by God to the writers to warn of a day immanent in their life time. Nearly all the OT writers warned of a day. At the time of writing, those days were eschatological and each separate events. Today they are history lessons and should not be confused with the Newer Covenant, day of-lord--not 'the' Lord.

    The genitive anarthrous kuriou means that that day has been given delegated authority to "come like a thief in the night". I believe that that day is, to us anyway, eschatological and pre-rapture which is why Peter said, "What manner of men should we be."
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 
    1Th 4:18  Therefore comfort one another with these words. 
    1Th 5:1  But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 
    1Th 5:2  For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 



    2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 



    Rev 16:15  "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 
    Rev 16:16  And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. 


    .
     
  17. Postvieww

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    I have a challenge for you. You do not have to do it on this forum, but do it for yourself. Then again, if you want to post it, great.


    Take all of the coming of the Lord passages you can find in scripture and divide them up into what you believe are His coming at a pre-trib rapture and His 2nd, 2nd coming after the tribulation.


    My challenge is for you to show any two of these passages that are identical in the details given. I can save you some time; they are not any two that are identical in every single point. If you divide them up based on the differences you probably can come up with 5 or 6 comings of the Lord, maybe more.


    My point is all of the arguments based on these differences are bogus.


    Examples:


    1. Jesus doesn’t come all the way to earth in one passage but He does in the other, hence it must be two comings.


    False, because one says we meet Him in the air and one says His feet touches the ground does not prove His feet does not touch the ground after we meet Him in the air. These can be one and the same coming.


    2. In one coming He gathers the saints in one He fights the wicked of this earth.


    False , He can do both in one trip, not a problem for God.


    3.



    False, Malachi asks who can endure and stand? The answer is the righteous who are looking for Him. The passage does not state no one can endure or stand as you have inferred.

    The coming of the Lord is either glorious or terrible depending whether or not one is ready to meet Him.

    Let’s look at two classic passages, most believe one is a second coming after the tribulation and most believe the other is a pre-trib rapture. Let’s see where they are alike and not focus on the differences.



    Matthew24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





    1 Thessalonians 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



    The things that match:

    1. heaven

    2. clouds

    3. trump or trumpet

    4. a gathering



    Of course these passages are not identical but then again, no two are. They do describe the same event , the problem for pre-tribbers is one clearly states after the tribulation of those days. I admit that is a problem for the pre-trib camp of which I used to be apart. I taught this stuff and made many of the same arguments many pre-tribbers make on this forum. I thought I had heard them all but I am still amazed at some of the creative ways to wrest the scriptures to try and prove that which is false.

    Jesus is coming again, but it is one more time after the tribulation as scripture clearly states, not multiple more comings.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  18. Postvieww

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    Jerry kelso said:

    1. I thought you were confused? Lol!

    The truth is you are confused.

    I believe it is you that is confused. As I told Bible writer I used to believe as you and taught this false doctrine.

    2. You think because there is a first coming and a second coming the rapture has to be the same as the second coming.

    The first coming was Christ in the flesh on this earth the second coming will be after the tribulation, there is no other coming of the Lord in scripture.

    That is not the case for the dead in Christ only come out of Heaven and the believers come from the earth to the clouds alive to meet them in the air. This is the rapture.

    I challenge you to show us one clear reference to a changed (resurrected) body in heaven at any time, other than Jesus anywhere in scripture. You can find the souls of dead believers in heaven, there is your clue don’t miss it.

    At the second coming all the living believers from Adam to the tribulation saints come out of Heaven and go straight to the earth to the Battle of Armageddon.

    This is the Second Coming.

    The natures of these comings are of two different natures and purposes.

    No resurrected, changed saints return with Christ.

    1 Thess. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Those dead saints (souls)that are now with Christ will return with Him to receive their new resurrection bodies.

    3. They that are at Christ Coming is the rapture for we are to be looking for the Blessed Hope as Titus says.

    He will return the dead will be raised and we will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye but we do not return back to heaven.

    4. Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:8-10 shows all believers from Adam to the church believers are in Heaven during the tribulation.

    Rev. 5 is 24 elders and 4 beasts not believers in heaven before the tribulation. Another topic altogether.

    Rev 11:18 shows no one in heaven there are no angry nations in heaven. Who is confused?

    Rev 19 describes the same thing as 1 Thess 3 & 4 describe



    5. The 1st resurrection is all believers from Christ the firstfruits to the tribulation saints in Revelation 15:1-2 which is the same as in Revelation 20:4-6.

    Those in Rev 15 are not resurrected saints.

    6. Christ has to reign and put down all sin and rebellion 1000 years before he gives the kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and Revelation 20:8:10.

    The second coming has no resurrection. The last resurrected believers of tribulation saints are before the Wrath of God Revelation 15:1;16:1-2.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-52 doesn’t mention the Lord but He will be present.

    The 7th vial is the Battle of Armageddon.

    So is the 7th trumpet Rev 11:18 “destroy them that destroy the earth”

    So is the 6th seal Rev 6:15-17

    The seals, trumpets and vials overlap.

    Furthermore, if the rapture took place in Revelation 19:11-15 the Jewish remnant would have to go up and then they would not be a remnant any longer. Jerry kelso

    The only ones who go to heaven are the dead in Christ before His return.
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I noted in my post that mere differences do not prove two comings. But statements that would be contradictions if they happened at the same time do. And that is exactly what the Holy Spirit did in the Old Testament.
     
  20. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

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    Great to see this point made.

    Not only are two comings of the Messiah not obvious from Old Testament, in hindsight we can see that two comings are quite a few times presented in one passage, as one continuous event. Famous example is Isaiah 61, from which Jesus reads as recorded in Luke 4:16-19, and stops mid-sentence, because latter part is about His second coming. And there are many other passages like that.

    Those who fervently argue either that full Daniel's 70 weeks are already fullfiled, or that there won't be both rapture and final coming of Jesus Christ to earth as distinct events, seem to easily dismiss great possibility that were they to live in Old Testament era, they would probably (or to say, certainly) not see two comings of the Messiah, separated thousands of years apart.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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