MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

SeventyOne · Jul 12, 2017

BABerean2 said:
When faced with a passage that says there will be no more crying and then someone claims that one verse says there will still be death, when numerous New Testament passages say otherwise, we would hope that we might examine again this one verse, instead of reinterpreting the rest of the Bible to make it fit this one difficult Hebrew verse.

Any interpretation which produces a conflict with a majority of other passages, cannot be correct.

.

Sure, then give me your intrepretation of them.

keras · Jul 12, 2017

SeventyOne said:
Makes one wonder why there will still be death and sinners (Is 65:20) and the continued curse upon the serpent (Is 65:25) in the new world (IS 65:17).

It is only after the Millennium that Death and curses will be no more. Revelation 20:11-forward. At the Great White Throne, everybody will be judged and those whose names are in the Book of Life will be given immortality, those not found in the Book of Life go into the Lake of Fire. It is at that time the prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15 and Philippians 3:21, etc, will take place.

SeventyOne · Jul 12, 2017

keras said:
It is only after the Millennium that Death and curses will be no more. Revelation 20:11-forward. At the Great White Throne, everybody will be judged and those whose names are in the Book of Life will be given immortality, those not found in the Book of Life go into the Lake of Fire. It is at that time the prophecy of 1 Corinthians 15 and Philippians 3:21, etc, will take place.

I know, which is why it appears to me that Rev 21 are actually a perspective of premillennial events, which would sync it up with Isaiah 65 with that revealing of the conditions in the new heaven and earth. I already fully expect an earthly kingdom setup in that time as detailed in places like Zechariah, and also eluded to in Rev 21:3 where it states "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God".

So, I was addressing him specifically since he thinks the earthly kingdom is nothing but figurative language and it's going on now, and it's in the new heavens and new earth where everything is made perfect, which Isaiah 65 contradicts. That's why he had to respond with claims of scripture contradictions, because it does contradict the framework he holds to. On the other hand, it perfectly syncs with mine. There is no contradiction to me at all as I know there will still be sin and death existing in the time of millennial kingdon.

BABerean2 · Jul 12, 2017

SeventyOne said:
Sure, then give me your intrepretation of them.

There shall be no more of any of the things listed in this verse.

That is the only way to get no more crying.
That is the only way to get things back to the way they were before the fall.
That is the only way to get this verse to agree with the rest of scripture.

Isa 65:20　 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.　

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jerry kelso · Jul 12, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Jerry,

At the restitution of all things the curse will be removed.
This rotten, sin-cursed world will be no more.

Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.　

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baberean2,

1. Hebrews 11:16 is taking about Heaven not the earthly KoH.
The city is the Holy City, the New Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven to earth and submerges into it forever Revelation 21.

2. There will be a renovation when the millennial KoH begins and when the New Heaven and the New Earth are created. This is why the annihilation theory is wrong. Jerry kelso

keras · Jul 12, 2017

BABerean2 said:
There shall be no more of any of the things listed in this verse.

That is the only way to get no more crying.
That is the only way to get things back to the way they were before the fall.
That is the only way to get this verse to agree with the rest of scripture.

Isa 65:20　 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.　

The KJV has totally twisted this verse! And you have fallen for it.
Isaiah 65:20 No child there will die in infancy and no man will fail to live our his span of life. He who dies at 100 is but a youth and if he does not attain 100, he is thought accursed. Revised English Bible
I reiterate: ONLY at the Great White Throne, is immortality given to those whose names are written in the Book of Life. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:11-15

BABerean2 · Jul 12, 2017

keras said:
The KJV has totally twisted this verse! And you have fallen for it.
Isaiah 65:20 No child there will die in infancy and no man will fail to live our his span of life. He who dies at 100 is but a youth and if he does not attain 100, he is thought accursed. Revised English Bible
I reiterate: ONLY at the Great White Throne, is immortality given to those whose names are written in the Book of Life. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:11-15

Below we find that the curse has been lifted in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
The former heavens and earth are no longer remembered.

New Heavens and a New Earth (subtitle from e-Sword)

Isa 65:17　 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.　
Isa 65:18　 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.　
Isa 65:19　 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.　
Isa 65:20　 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.　
Isa 65:21　 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.　
Isa 65:22　 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.　
Isa 65:23　 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.　
Isa 65:24　 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.　
Isa 65:25　 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.　

Can people still be dying in he New Heavens and New Earth, if the curse has been lifted?

Below we find that this present earth is burned up and replaced with the New Heavens and New Earth, on the day of the Lord when Christ comes as a thief.

2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　
2Pe 3:11　 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,　
2Pe 3:12　 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?　
2Pe 3:13　 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.　

Peter is looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth and so am I.

.

keras · Jul 13, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Peter is looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth and so am I.

Sure, me too!
But the NH,NE does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-4

BABerean2 · Jul 13, 2017

keras said:
Sure, me too!
But the NH,NE does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-4

In 2 Peter 3:10 Peter says it happens on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

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keras · Jul 13, 2017

BABerean2 said:
In 2 Peter 3:10 Peter says it happens on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

2 Peter 3:7-13 reads as a sequence;
1/ V7: The terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.
2/ V8: A reminder of Psalm 90:4, that there will be 2000 years of the church age.
3/ V9: An exhortation for us to keep faithful through it all.
4/ V10 A prophecy that confirms Isaiah 30:26 - the Lord will send a sudden and unexpected C.M.E. sunstrike to literally fulfil all that is prophesied about that terrible Day, all the earth brought to judgement.
5/ V11-13 is prophecy for the end of the Millennium and refers to the Day of God, when God makes a New Heavens and a New Earth. Revelation 21:1-4 Then God Himself will dwell with mankind for Eternity.

Any other interpretation of Peters prophecy just doesn't take into account all that Peter says and how it relates to other prophesies.

BABerean2 · Jul 13, 2017

keras said:
2 Peter 3:7-13 reads as a sequence;
1/ V7: The terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.
2/ V8: A reminder of Psalm 90:4, that there will be 2000 years of the church age.
3/ V9: An exhortation for us to keep faithful through it all.
4/ V10 A prophecy that confirms Isaiah 30:26 - the Lord will send a sudden and unexpected C.M.E. sunstrike to literally fulfil all that is prophesied about that terrible Day, all the earth brought to judgement.
5/ V11-13 is prophecy for the end of the Millennium and refers to the Day of God, when God makes a New Heavens and a New Earth. Revelation 21:1-4 Then God Himself will dwell with mankind for Eternity.

Any other interpretation of Peters prophecy just doesn't take into account all that Peter says and how it relates to other prophesies.

2Pe 3:7　 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.　
(The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found at Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet.)

2Pe 3:8　 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(God stands outside of time and space and sees the beginning and the end at the same time.)　

2Pe 3:9　 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.　

2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　
(This same exact language is used in the famous passage of Christ's return from heaven, found in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 and 5. Based on 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, Christ returns "in flaming fire". Note that the fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20. He is going to burn up this rotten, sin-cursed world at His Second Coming. Prepare yourself to be baptized with fire, like the three Hebrew men in the fiery furnace. )

2Pe 3:11　 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,　

2Pe 3:12　 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?　
(Here Peter gives the timing of the event for the second time and what will happen on that day.)

2Pe 3:13　 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.　(I am looking for the same thing.)

Christ is not going to reign over a world where sin and death remains for 1,000 literal years after His Second Coming. The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet. 1,000 years is not "forever".

The "time of the judgment of the dead" also occurs right after the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:18.
This is the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

He has already defeated sin and death at Calvary.

He told the woman at the well that we would not worship the Father in earthly Jerusalem.

I am like the Old Testament saints who are looking for a heavenly city, which is New Jerusalem.

Heb 11:16　 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.　

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WailingWall · Jul 13, 2017

Biblewriter said:
I scripture, as in everyday language, the word "day" has three distinct meanings.

It can mean:
1. The portion of a 24 hour period during which the subject area is lighted by the sun.
2. The time it takes (24 hours) for the earth to complete one revolution.
3. An indistinct period of time, as old people speaking of the time of their youth as "in our day."

"in THAT day"! not the word "day"

Go to Isaiah. Read it. Everytime you see"in that day" its speaking of the Day of the Lord. The gathering of His people. The kingdom come {same as mentioned in the Lords prayer}.

Biblewriter · Jul 13, 2017

WailingWall said:
"in THAT day"! not the word "day"

Go to Isaiah. Read it. Everytime you see"in that day" its speaking of the Day of the Lord. The gathering of His people. The kingdom come {same as mentioned in the Lords prayer}.

This has zero bearing in the meaning of the word "day." You seem to be wanting to limit "the day of the Lord" to a 24 hour period. But that is error.

For other uses of the words "in that day," see:

And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. Exodus 8:22
And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die. Exodus 10:28
And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. Exodus 13:8
Then the priest shall reckon unto him the worth of thy estimation, even unto the year of the jubile: and he shall give thine estimation in that day, as a holy thing unto the LORD. Leviticus 27:23
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. Deuteronomy 1:39
Now therefore give me this mountain, whereof the LORD spake in that day; for thou heardest in that day how the Anakims were there, and that the cities were great and fenced: if so be the LORD will be with me, then I shall be able to drive them out, as the LORD said. Joshua 14:12
In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end. 1 Samuel 3:12
And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. 1 Samuel 8:18
And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself. 1 Kings 22:25

WailingWall · Jul 13, 2017

BABerean2 said:
You need to tell that to the writer of the Book of Hebrews, since we find Jeremiah 31:31-34 copied word-for-word and bracketed at the beginning and end of the passage with verses making it clear that Christ fulfilled Jeremiah 31:31-34 during the first century.

JEREMIAH 31 [31] BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; AFTER THOSE DAYS, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] AND THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Jer.31 and Heb.8 are speaking of the same exact covenant. Although we are to try and walk as if Gods law was written in our heart, has the covenant of Jer.31 and Hebrews 8 already arrived?

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Every time i say we {gentiles} are to keep the 10 commandments, i hear that covenant wasnt given to the gentiles! It was given to Isreal only!

Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time.

Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish. Aint vanished yet! Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. In them same books youll find in Hebrews 4 the name of Jesus being change to Joshua for the same reason. To hide the truth

Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them. Yes, even His sabbath. When will God write His laws in our hearts?

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

After the gathering {in the twinkling of an eye} to the kingdom rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

Yup

WailingWall · Jul 13, 2017

Biblewriter said:
This has zero bearing in the meaning of the word "day." You seem to be wanting to limit "the day of the Lord" to a 24 hour period. But that is error.

For other uses of the words "in that day," see:

As i said and you ignored. In the book of Isaiah.

WailingWall · Jul 13, 2017

BABerean2 said:
You need to tell that to the writer of the Book of Hebrews, since we find Jeremiah 31:31-34 copied word-for-word and bracketed at the beginning and end of the passage with verses making it clear that Christ fulfilled Jeremiah 31:31-34 during the first century.

Heb 8:6　 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.　
Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.　
Heb 8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING,

Behold the days ARE COMING! Aint here yet

Biblewriter · Jul 13, 2017

WailingWall said:
As i said and you ignored. In the book of Isaiah.

I noticed that, but the places I quoted clearly show that in the Bible, the words"in that day" sometimes refer to a specific 24 hour period, and at other times refer to an indistinct period of time.

WailingWall · Jul 13, 2017

Biblewriter said:
I noticed that, but the places I quoted clearly show that in the Bible, the words"in that day" sometimes refer to a specific 24 hour period, and at other times refer to an indistinct period of time.

Yeah. That goes without saying

WailingWall · Jul 13, 2017

This thread is so full of off topic material. Kinda hard to follow. Did anyone give a good reason why the "last trumpet" isnt really the "last trumpet"?

WailingWall · Jul 13, 2017

Anyways... my next question is will Job be in the rapture of 1Cor.15?

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