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[BigDaddy4]

According to scripture, many of the prophets of the OT are not prophets. According to scripture, Jesus failed the test. So I would not put too much weight on your OT scripture.

Jesus is God, not a prophet. In addition to your blowing smoke, you are now making false and misleading statements about Jesus. I see the desperation in your words. So sad...

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus is God, not a prophet. In addition to your blowing smoke, you are now making false and misleading statements about Jesus. I see the desperation in your words. So sad...

There is no desparation, just a fact. According to the scripture Jesus said things would happen that seem to have not come to pass. Is this because the scripture was misscopied or mistranslated or something, I don't know.
Read:
Matthew 24:21-34King James Version (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This verse 34 screwed up the NT church, thinking that Jesus would come immediately.

This verse 34 is a anti-Christ scripture that was presented to me by an atheist that wanted to prove to me that Jesus gave a false prophecy, and therefore proves that he is not God or the Son of God.

In fact JS made a statement that this generation shall .... and you have got all over him for this statement, but here is Jesus using the same language.

You must know that I believe all that Jesus says is true, but some do not and have at least a scripture that is at least controversial. There are a few more in the bible that would disqualify other prophets if you are going to pursue this line of thinking.

I know it is your favorite scripture to go after JS, but you must be as diligent towards biblical prophets if you want to be diligent about modern prophets. The bar has to be set the same.

 

[Peter1000]

Jesus is God, not a prophet. In addition to your blowing smoke, you are now making false and misleading statements about Jesus. I see the desperation in your words. So sad...

Jesus is not God, he is God the Son. He is not God the Father.

Read John 20:17 and you will know that Jesus ascended to his God after he was resurrected. He is not God, he prayed to God, he said God was greater than him, he ascended to him. Jesus is God the Son.

BTW Moses called Jesus a prophet, is that good enough for you?

 

[BigDaddy4]

There is no desparation, just a fact. According to the scripture Jesus said things would happen that seem to have not come to pass. Is this because the scripture was misscopied or mistranslated or something, I don't know.
Read:
Matthew 24:21-34King James Version (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This verse 34 screwed up the NT church, thinking that Jesus would come immediately.

This verse 34 is a anti-Christ scripture that was presented to me by an atheist that wanted to prove to me that Jesus gave a false prophecy, and therefore proves that he is not God or the Son of God.

In fact JS made a statement that this generation shall .... and you have got all over him for this statement, but here is Jesus using the same language.

You must know that I believe all that Jesus says is true, but some do not and have at least a scripture that is at least controversial. There are a few more in the bible that would disqualify other prophets if you are going to pursue this line of thinking.

I know it is your favorite scripture to go after JS, but you must be as diligent towards biblical prophets if you want to be diligent about modern prophets. The bar has to be set the same.

The "this generation" is a future generation, the one which will experience the great tribulation events described here. That's reinforced by the fig tree parable.

 

[withwonderingawe]

You can talk about what is normal all day, but God will do as He wishes, not how you think He should do things, even if He did things different in the past.

For instance, how many times has God appeared to a man from a burning bush?

Do you believe that God appeared to Moses from a burning bush? You shouldn't, because he has never done it that way in the past, and He hasn't done it that way since. Everytime that comes up I expect you to object to that burning bush appearance as being non-true.

Joseph of Egypt had a divining cup, ....oh my

 

[BigDaddy4]

Jesus is not God, he is God the Son. He is not God the Father.

Read John 20:17 and you will know that Jesus ascended to his God after he was resurrected. He is not God, he prayed to God, he said God was greater than him, he ascended to him. Jesus is God the Son.

BTW Moses called Jesus a prophet, is that good enough for you?

John 1:1.

 

[mmksparbud]

Joseph of Egypt had a divining cup, ....oh my

And???? His servant said the cup was for divining, not Joseph. God gave Joseph the interpretations to his dreams. He had no silver "divining cup" in prison.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm reminded of How Nephi contradicted Jeremiah his contemporary in the actual bible.

 

[Ironhold]

I'm reminded of How Nephi contradicted Jeremiah his contemporary in the actual bible.

[citation needed]

 

[Gregory Thompson]

[citation needed]

1Ne 1:4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

First point: Jeremiah was the contemporary prophet of Nephi.
Jer 1:1 ¶ The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.
4 ¶ Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

================================
First point of Disagreement
================================

Nephi depicts all the prophets preaching against the sin of the people, while Jeremiah depicts God having kept the coming wrath from the prophets except for Jeremiah. I.e. the question is, which account is correct?

1Ne 1:4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.
9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

For more references see Jeremiah 5:31, Jeremiah 14:14, Jeremiah 23:16, Jeremiah 23:25
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Another main disagreement is that Nephi is written in the first person and uses his father as a reference and Jeremiah is written in the third person and uses God as a reference.
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The final point I'll bring up for now is that the God Jeremiah was talking to said "do not go into egypt" but the God Nephi was talking to said to go into Egypt, which God was correct?

1 Nephi 5:15 And they were also led out of captivity and out of the land of Egypt, by that same God who had preserved them.

Jer 42:19 The LORD hath said concerning you, O ye remnant of Judah; Go ye not into Egypt: know certainly that I have admonished you this day.

Jer 43:2 Then spake Azariah the son of Hoshaiah, and Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the proud men, saying unto Jeremiah, Thou speakest falsely: the LORD our God hath not sent thee to say, Go not into Egypt to sojourn there:

These are the issues I typically encounter when reading the book of Mormon.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I was also kind of having a twilight zone moment when reading 1st Nephi after chapter 11, since Nephi established himself as an unreliable narrator to that point. But then it reminded me of the first point, there was a contradiction of what the bible said, then an elaborate vision. Perhaps it is part of the author's style.

 

[Jane_Doe]

@Michael Collum , did you used to be LDS?

(Unrelated note: cool signature)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

@Michael Collum , did you used to be LDS?

No. I just like to research if possible.

(Unrelated note: cool signature)

Thanks.

 

[withwonderingawe]

1Ne 1:4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

First point: Jeremiah was the contemporary prophet of Nephi.
Jer 1:1 ¶ The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.
4 ¶ Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

================================
First point of Disagreement
================================

Nephi depicts all the prophets preaching against the sin of the people, while Jeremiah depicts God having kept the coming wrath from the prophets except for Jeremiah. I.e. the question is, which account is correct?

1Ne 1:4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

Jer 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.
9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.
10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

For more references see Jeremiah 5:31, Jeremiah 14:14, Jeremiah 23:16, Jeremiah 23:25
.
Another main disagreement is that Nephi is written in the first person and uses his father as a reference and Jeremiah is written in the third person and uses God as a reference.
.
The final point I'll bring up for now is that the God Jeremiah was talking to said "do not go into egypt" but the God Nephi was talking to said to go into Egypt, which God was correct?

1 Nephi 5:15 And they were also led out of captivity and out of the land of Egypt, by that same God who had preserved them.

Jer 42:19 The LORD hath said concerning you, O ye remnant of Judah; Go ye not into Egypt: know certainly that I have admonished you this day.

Jer 43:2 Then spake Azariah the son of Hoshaiah, and Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the proud men, saying unto Jeremiah, Thou speakest falsely: the LORD our God hath not sent thee to say, Go not into Egypt to sojourn there:

These are the issues I typically encounter when reading the book of Mormon.

Mmmm you really read the book ??

Jeremiah and Lehi probably never met although they lived in the same time period. At least he is never quoted from in the Book of Mormon. From the story line it appears Lehi was an exporter and trader who lived somewhere outside of Jerusalem proper but also had a home in the city. He also traveled a great deal, having the camels and tents to go at a moment's notice. His calling to be a prophet comes middle age, he has grown children. He sees the wickedness of the Jews and hears other unnamed prophets, one could have been Jeremiah but he does not name him, calling the people to repentance, see 2 Kings 17: 13-15, 2 Chr 36: 15-16 and Jer 7: 25. Only then does Lehi call upon the name of the Lord and he has a vision. He goes out and does some preaching but his life is threatened. Under the direction of the Lord he leaves Jerusalem around 600 bc.

Now your quote of 1 Nephi 5:15 and Jer 42:19, did you actually read them in context??? Nephi is talking about the past when they came out of Egypt and God protected them. Jeremiah is warning them not to return to Egypt which they did taking him with them and then they kill him. Two totally different things, why did you even put them together?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Mmmm you really read the book ??

Jeremiah and Lehi probably never met although they lived in the same time period. At least he is never quoted from in the Book of Mormon. From the story line it appears Lehi was an exporter and trader who lived somewhere outside of Jerusalem proper but also had a home in the city. He also traveled a great deal, having the camels and tents to go at a moment's notice. His calling to be a prophet comes middle age, he has grown children. He sees the wickedness of the Jews and hears other unnamed prophets, one could have been Jeremiah but he does not name him, calling the people to repentance, see 2 Kings 17: 13-15, 2 Chr 36: 15-16 and Jer 7: 25. Only then does Lehi call upon the name of the Lord and he has a vision. He goes out and does some preaching but his life is threatened. Under the direction of the Lord he leaves Jerusalem around 600 bc.

Now your quote of 1 Nephi 5:15 and Jer 42:19, did you actually read them in context??? Nephi is talking about the past when they came out of Egypt and God protected them. Jeremiah is warning them not to return to Egypt which they did taking him with them and then they kill him. Two totally different things, why did you even put them together?

Jeremiah is the only prophet there during the time of the same king as Nephi, a good place as any to start. The dating based on the testimony of the church of mormon is irrelevant. It's important to compare what claims to be scripture with scripture.
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That being said, the point regarding egypt is undeveloped, and I have abandoned the idea.
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The point however that The prophets were being soothsayers except for Jeremiah stands. The claim of 1 Nephi that "the prophets" were telling people to repent, is incorrect according to Jeremiah.
.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No. I just like to research if possible.

Ah, that explains. Let me know if I can help with anything!

 

[withwonderingawe]

Jeremiah is the only prophet there during the time of the same king as Nephi, a good place as any to start. The dating based on the testimony of the church of mormon is irrelevant. It's important to compare what claims to be scripture with scripture.
.
That being said, the point regarding egypt is undeveloped, and I have abandoned the idea.
.
The point however that The prophets were being soothsayers except for Jeremiah stands. The claim of 1 Nephi that "the prophets" were telling people to repent, is incorrect according to Jeremiah.
.

Jeremiah was a prophet between 628 and 586 bc. During that time there were false prophets who apparently would tell the people what they wanted to hear, everything would be okay they had the Lord's temple.

However there were several other prophets also preaching distruction, Zephaniah who preached between 639 and 609, Obadiah who is a big question mark and Habakkuk who they think was around 600 bc. Any of them, or some unnamed prophet stoned before his prophecy was written down, could have influenced Lehi to get down on his knees.

Jer 7:25 reads "Since the day that your father's came forth out of Egypt unto this day I have sent unto you all my servants the prophets daily rising up early and sending them."

Daily sending them!

In 2Chr 36 Zedekiah is king and this is when Lehi and family leave Jerusalem. It says in verse 15, and the Lord God ... sent to them messengers...because he had compassion on the people 16 But they mocked the messengers of God and misused his prophets....

One of those messengers was Lehi. He has a vision of the destruction of Jerusalem but is told if the people will repent and come unto the Lord he will be merciful. The Jews 'mock' him and seek to take his life. The Lord is merciful to Lehi and guides his family to the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills full filling Jacob's blessing given to Joseph in Gen 49.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jeremiah was a prophet between 628 and 586 bc. During that time there were false prophets who apparently would tell the people what they wanted to hear, everything would be okay they had the Lord's temple.

However there were several other prophets also preaching distruction, Zephaniah who preached between 639 and 609, Obadiah who is a big question mark and Habakkuk who they think was around 600 bc. Any of them, or some unnamed prophet stoned before his prophecy was written down, could have influenced Lehi to get down on his knees.

Jer 7:25 reads "Since the day that your father's came forth out of Egypt unto this day I have sent unto you all my servants the prophets daily rising up early and sending them."

Daily sending them!

In 2Chr 36 Zedekiah is king and this is when Lehi and family leave Jerusalem. It says in verse 15, and the Lord God ... sent to them messengers...because he had compassion on the people 16 But they mocked the messengers of God and misused his prophets....

One of those messengers was Lehi. He has a vision of the destruction of Jerusalem but is told if the people will repent and come unto the Lord he will be merciful. The Jews 'mock' him and seek to take his life. The Lord is merciful to Lehi and guides his family to the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills full filling Jacob's blessing given to Joseph in Gen 49.

I appreciate your explanation.
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However, the suspension of disbelief kind of derails when Nephi gets visions of things hidden from the foundation of the world until Jesus taught them ... with the exception of Nephi.
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What's the church founded by the devil in chapter 13? The American continent never had a unified religion.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I appreciate your explanation.
.
However, the suspension of disbelief kind of derails when Nephi gets visions of things hidden from the foundation of the world until Jesus taught them ... with the exception of Nephi.
.
What's the church founded by the devil in chapter 13? The American continent never had a unified religion.

Which things?

 

[withwonderingawe]

I appreciate your explanation.
.
However, the suspension of disbelief kind of derails when Nephi gets visions of things hidden from the foundation of the world until Jesus taught them ... with the exception of Nephi.
.
What's the church founded by the devil in chapter 13? The American continent never had a unified religion.

Nephi is having a vision of the future of the world. In the chapter 13 verse it appears the church is Rome, with all its riches. They kill the early new testament saints. But as the vision moves forward into chapter 14 there are two churches only, the church of God or followers of Jesus vs the church of the devil, the wicked of the world. Anyone denying Jesus is the Messiah of the world and fights against him is of the church of the devil, atheist, Islam, Scientology etc.