More and more churches exploding?

[holo]

Zec,
I'm disagreeing and arguing with you, not calling you a fool or implying that you're evil or twisting the bible or anything like that. I think you're mistaken and that some of your views and beliefs are wrong and ultimately destructive. Let's be civil.

"The problem isn't so much that sin is re-labeled as "shortcomings" and such, but the very fact that you and many others insist on calling (and treating) us all as sinners."

Holo, it's always somebody else's fault isn't it? It's never you, is it? God has set the criteria by which people are determined to be sinners, not me or anyone else. If you have a problem with the criteria, you can take it up with God when you die.

I don't disagree with the criteria, but I disagree with you about what the criteria are. Being a sinner has to do with identity. And identity has to do with how yo're born. You don't become a sinner by sinning, just like you don't become righteous by doing good deeds. You're a sinner by nature, because you're born like one. I think that's a biblical idea.

"If you tell your child that he's an idiot every single day, he'll start to believe it. And, naturally, he'll act like one. There's power in words."

Words convict and the words of God have convicted us of our sin and shown us our need for a savior. What we do with that knowledge and situation is up to us. Address it or ignore it. God gave you a freewill to use in such situations, use it. But don't blame anyone if you choose poorly.

I'm not blaming anybody else for my own choices, but as you say, words influence, and therefore we influence each other. Christians tend to speak and think of themselves as sinners, and as long as they do that, their natural behaviour will be to sin. In fact, they think they can't not sin - it's their nature, they're born that way, it's who they are - do you see the hopelessness in telling someone over and over that "you're a sinner, stop sinning!"

Do you at least understand why I find it logical to say "you're righteous and dead from sin - you don't have to sin anymore" instead?

"Nobody ever conquered sin by realizing, over and over and over, that they were sinners."

That's true. But in order to conquer something, you must first be aware of a challenge or a problem. The law of God has pronounced you a sinner and guilty of serious crimes before God. That's a challenge. It's also a challenge that no one can overcome on his own, he or she needs the Holy Spirt, God and the blood of Christ to overcome it.

I agree, but the thing is that this is not about something we achieve the day we die! No, it's here and now, victory is here and now, salvation is here and now, righteousness and freedom is here and now! It's not about what I can hope to do, with or without the help of God, it's about what Christ has already done.

"There's nothing positive about it whatsoever."

There's not supposed to be something positive about realizing you're a sinner and have fallen short of the perfect standard set by God. The positive comes later, when you call on Jesus Christ to save you from God's wrath, which you have earned by living in opposition to God.

Yes, but then people get back to the negative part again. You're a sinner, oh no, but then Jesus, oh yay, but hey, you're still a sinner, oh no, but Jesus, oh yay etc etc. Too many people just end up going around in circles, condemning themselves while struggling with sin. They're constantly being told they are sinners, and sinners sin and lose and are ashamed and afraid and weak.

"The only way to conquer sin is to realize who you are in Christ, and what power and rights that follow your identity as a child of God - a "co-heir with Christ," even."

You are not equal in anyway with Jesus. If God is your co-pilot switch seats. God is your father, Jesus is your shepherd and you are a sheep. See where you rank in the grand scheme of things?

He's not my pilot, he's my plane, and the air I'm flying in.

I'm a speck of dust, but still, Paul says that we're no longer servants, but sons, and co-heirs with Christ, and Christ himself is the firstborn of many brethren. I am just as righteous as Christ. That's the truth. That's why I react so strongly when people call me or any other re-born person a sinner. If you call me a sinner, you're saying the complete opposite of what God says about me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Fact of the matter is, we're sinners, all of us. If we weren't, Christ wouldn't have needed to take our place on the cross, die and rise from the dead to pay the price for the crimes that we committed against God.

"Yes, he died for our sins, but let's not go back and crucify him over and over and over again!"

Who's doing that? I'm simply making a statement here. One that gets your undies in a bunch every time you hear it. Why is that?

Because it's not true. We're not in fact sinners.

"He died ONCE and for all. He doesn't need to pay for your sins one more time."

Never said He did. Show me where I said this. You really love putting words in people's mouths don't you?

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out the significance of him dying ONCE, and raising from the dead.

"He didn't die so that you may remain a sinner!"

Holo, just last week you proved to the entire message board community that you are still a sinner when you said to me and I quote "Go screw yourself" or was it "Screw you"? Remember saying that?

Yes, and I'm sure you remember saying that I don't care about the salvation of other people.

According to the Bible, speaking a statement like that, one filled with ill-will towards a brother or sister, is equal to murder in the eyes of God. Welcome to the club. You're a forgiven sinner, just like everybody else who is born-again in Christ Jesus.

Why "forgiven sinner"? Why not "sinning saint"? If doing something wrong makes me a sinner, it follows that doing something right makes me righteous, doesn't it?

What's the point of merely forgiving a sinner? That doesn't free him from sin, that doesn't change his heart and inclination toward sin. No, he must be die and be born again. When God gets you born again, he doesn't give birth to just another sinner. That would be pointless.

"He died, and rose, so that you may be born AGAIN, so that you may be a conqeror, not a loser. So that you may take part in HIS righteousness and stop trying to establish your own."

I'm not trying to do that. Seriously, where do you come up with these fantasies you paint for other people? It can't be from what they write, because none of what you have said here can be found in my posts.

I think it's the logical extension of what you write, because you seem to suggest the idea of "you're a sinner, stop sinning" and that the key to getting rid of sin is by discipline or zeal or something like that. I may have misunderstood though. If righteousness is a gift, and your only righteousness is that of Jesus, you're obviously... well, righteous

"Your accusing us all of being sinners may sound holy and biblical and all, but it's only feeding the very problem that you're trying to solve."

Satan accuses you and God pronounces you guilty and Jesus saves you. I thought you knew this stuff already.

Yes, I know this, but the problem is that you let satan accuse you over and over. He has no right to do so. You're dead, not only to the law and sin and the world, but even to yourself. Satan simply has no right to accuse you anymore. God doesn't pronounce you guilty, he pronounces you righteous! He's like the prodigal son's father.

"Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness, and all the other stuff will be added unto you "

Let me know when you actually wanna try that one, Holo.

Right now. If you're referring to this thread, I'm not seeking my righteousness here, I'm just debating.

All I see here is another post filled with condemning comments about someone who is sharing Biblical truth along with their opinion. For someone who considers themselves to be liberal, I'm just not seeing the love.

Well, I'm not writing these things to demonstrate my love for you, to be honest. I always hope love will shine through in everything I do, though. But I know that it often doesn't, especially in online forums.

But I DO love people, and I hate to see them slaving under sin, and that's why I'm on the offense against legalism and the idea that we're anything less than righteous. It's destroying people.

 

[Zecryphon]

"I'm disagreeing and arguing with you, not calling you a fool or implying that you're evil or twisting the bible or anything like that. I think you're mistaken and that some of your views and beliefs are wrong and ultimately destructive. Let's be civil."

You say my beliefs are wrong and ultimately destructive and then say let's be civil? Ha! Next!

<<Holo, it's always somebody else's fault isn't it? It's never you, is it? God has set the criteria by which people are determined to be sinners, not me or anyone else. If you have a problem with the criteria, you can take it up with God when you die.>>

"I don't disagree with the criteria, but I disagree with you about what the criteria are."

That doesn't make sense. How can you agree with the criteria, but disagree with what the criteria is. If you agree with the criteria that is set forth in the Bible by God for the determination of what is sin, there's nothing to disagree with.

"Being a sinner has to do with identity. And identity has to do with how yo're born."

Wrong. Identity has alot to do with what happens to you after you're born. Did you know that your name plays a part in the type of person you will become?

"You don't become a sinner by sinning, just like you don't become righteous by doing good deeds."

Okay, think about it this way. How many women do I have to rape to be considered a rapist?

"You're a sinner by nature, because you're born like one. I think that's a biblical idea."

You think that's a biblical idea. We are born with a sinful nature, the Bible is clear on this.

"I'm not blaming anybody else for my own choices, but as you say, words influence, and therefore we influence each other. Christians tend to speak and think of themselves as sinners, and as long as they do that, their natural behaviour will be to sin."

They think of themselves that way because they base their lives upon the Bible and what it teaches and it teaches that people are sinners.

"In fact, they think they can't not sin - it's their nature, they're born that way, it's who they are - do you see the hopelessness in telling someone over and over that "you're a sinner, stop sinning!""

I never tell anyone that the way out of sin is to just simply stop it. That's like telling someone of the homosexual persuasion to stop being gay. It's only a hopeless situation if the person is without Christ. With Christ, they are a forgiven sinner. Let's go back to the rapist analogy. If a person is convicted of that crime, does their time and is released back into society are they still considered a rapist? Yes they are, because they once raped someone. It doesn't matter who they are, the stain is always there, until they die. Society has forgiven them, maybe, they have paid their penalty, definitely, but they will always be regarded as a rapist. For a Christian the only way to overcome the sentence that has been pronounced on us, Hell, for our sin is to accept Jesus Christ as savior. That's what you think I'm missing. I'm not. Because I keep in mind that I'm still sinful by nature, doesn't mean I revel in sin or try and earn my way to Heaven. You're the one that would be more prone to sinning, because you're convinced that you can't sin anymore. So anything you do, you could justify by saying "oh I'm righteous, I can't sin, so whatever I do is acceptable to God."

"Do you at least understand why I find it logical to say "you're righteous and dead from sin - you don't have to sin anymore" instead?"

You don't have to sin anymore, but we still do. Why is that?

"I agree, but the thing is that this is not about something we achieve the day we die! No, it's here and now, victory is here and now, salvation is here and now, righteousness and freedom is here and now! It's not about what I can hope to do, with or without the help of God, it's about what Christ has already done."

I agree. I don't know why you think I don't believe this.

"Yes, but then people get back to the negative part again. You're a sinner, oh no, but then Jesus, oh yay, but hey, you're still a sinner, oh no, but Jesus, oh yay etc etc. Too many people just end up going around in circles, condemning themselves while struggling with sin. They're constantly being told they are sinners, and sinners sin and lose and are ashamed and afraid and weak."

They're not condemned if they're in Christ. But they are still sinners. They're forgiven sinners, but sinners still the same.

"He's not my pilot, he's my plane, and the air I'm flying in.

I'm a speck of dust, but still, Paul says that we're no longer servants, but sons, and co-heirs with Christ, and Christ himself is the firstborn of many brethren. I am just as righteous as Christ. That's the truth. That's why I react so strongly when people call me or any other re-born person a sinner. If you call me a sinner, you're saying the complete opposite of what God says about me."

Check out the verses in my quote. If you are saying you are without sin, that there is no sin in you, then the word of God is obviously not in you. That's the words of the Bible condemning you, not me. Just in case you wanna get all self-rigtheous on me again.

<<Who's doing that? I'm simply making a statement here. One that gets your undies in a bunch every time you hear it. Why is that?>>

"Because it's not true. We're not in fact sinners."

Just how deep is denial river for you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"He died ONCE and for all. He doesn't need to pay for your sins one more time."

Never said He did. Show me where I said this. You really love putting words in people's mouths don't you?

"I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out the significance of him dying ONCE, and raising from the dead."

Nobody is debating the significance of that event.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"He didn't die so that you may remain a sinner!"

Holo, just last week you proved to the entire message board community that you are still a sinner when you said to me and I quote "Go screw yourself" or was it "Screw you"? Remember saying that?

"Yes, and I'm sure you remember saying that I don't care about the salvation of other people."

That statement was made because of your attitude and the things you had said in that thread. I made a deduction from statements you had made. That is not a sin. Telling someone to go screw themselves, according to the Biblical standard is. Your issue is not with me, but rather the written word of God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
According to the Bible, speaking a statement like that, one filled with ill-will towards a brother or sister, is equal to murder in the eyes of God. Welcome to the club. You're a forgiven sinner, just like everybody else who is born-again in Christ Jesus.

"Why "forgiven sinner"? Why not "sinning saint"?"

If you like that one better, use it. But by doing so you'd have to admit that you are in fact, a sinner, which you refuse to do, even though your own actions prove that you are.

"If doing something wrong makes me a sinner, it follows that doing something right makes me righteous, doesn't it?"

Nope. The Bible is clear. You, yourself can not do anything to achieve righteousness. The only thing you can do is call on the name of Jesus to be saved. That's it. Anything else, will fail.

"What's the point of merely forgiving a sinner? That doesn't free him from sin, that doesn't change his heart and inclination toward sin. No, he must be die and be born again. When God gets you born again, he doesn't give birth to just another sinner. That would be pointless."

No, He gives birth to a new creation. But your freewill is still intact after the rebirth. Why? There should be nothing to choose between, if we follow your line of reasoning. There should be no more temptation, no more right and wrong, but there is. You have new desires, but we don't always act or follow the right desires of our hearts do we?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"He died, and rose, so that you may be born AGAIN, so that you may be a conqeror, not a loser. So that you may take part in HIS righteousness and stop trying to establish your own."

I'm not trying to do that. Seriously, where do you come up with these fantasies you paint for other people? It can't be from what they write, because none of what you have said here can be found in my posts.

"I think it's the logical extension of what you write, because you seem to suggest the idea of "you're a sinner, stop sinning""

Never said that. I said you're a sinner and the only way to conquer that sin is to put your trust in Jesus. I have never said stop sinning and you will be free from sin.

"and that the key to getting rid of sin is by discipline or zeal or something like that."

Nope, wrong again. I've made it clear how you have to get rid of sin. Your problem is with the word repentance and what it means.

"I may have misunderstood though. If righteousness is a gift, and your only righteousness is that of Jesus, you're obviously... well, righteous "

I pray one day you'll get it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"Your accusing us all of being sinners may sound holy and biblical and all, but it's only feeding the very problem that you're trying to solve."

Satan accuses you and God pronounces you guilty and Jesus saves you. I thought you knew this stuff already.

"Yes, I know this, but the problem is that you let satan accuse you over and over."

He can accuse me all he wants. Because I know the one who paid the price for my life.

"He has no right to do so."

Actually, he does. God gave him that job.

"You're dead, not only to the law and sin and the world, but even to yourself. Satan simply has no right to accuse you anymore."

He has the right to accuse, but his accusations don't mean anything anymore.

"God doesn't pronounce you guilty, he pronounces you righteous! He's like the prodigal son's father."

You're missing the point. God will pronounce you guilty if you are without Christ.



"Right now. If you're referring to this thread, I'm not seeking my righteousness here, I'm just debating."

Yeah, I didn't think you'd actually be willing to try righteousness. You'd rather just talk about it.

"Well, I'm not writing these things to demonstrate my love for you, to be honest."

No kiddin? LOL

"I always hope love will shine through in everything I do, though. But I know that it often doesn't, especially in online forums."

Yep, no love shining through from you. Guess that's another sin we should be able to chalk up to you, but since you don't sin anymore, we can't.

"But I DO love people, and I hate to see them slaving under sin, and that's why I'm on the offense against legalism and the idea that we're anything less than righteous. It's destroying people."

Legalism and sharing what the Bible actually says are two different things. It's not destroying people. It might be threatening to your line of thinking, but that's all.

 

[holo]

"I'm disagreeing and arguing with you, not calling you a fool or implying that you're evil or twisting the bible or anything like that. I think you're mistaken and that some of your views and beliefs are wrong and ultimately destructive. Let's be civil."

You say my beliefs are wrong and ultimately destructive and then say let's be civil? Ha! Next!

Yes, it is possible to think you're wrong without treatint you like a freak or somtehing. You don't have to be condescending toward me either, just because you think I'm absolutely mistaken.

"I don't disagree with the criteria, but I disagree with you about what the criteria are."

That doesn't make sense. How can you agree with the criteria, but disagree with what the criteria is. If you agree with the criteria that is set forth in the Bible by God for the determination of what is sin, there's nothing to disagree with.

What I meant is, I disagree with you on what the criteria actually are. I don't disagree that the bible puts forth criteria.

"Being a sinner has to do with identity. And identity has to do with how yo're born."

Wrong. Identity has alot to do with what happens to you after you're born. Did you know that your name plays a part in the type of person you will become?

Sure, a lot of things shape you. Meeting Jesus should shape you more than anything. But your identity, who you are (not how you behave), is determined by birth, by blood lines. If you're white, you can't become an indian no matter how you behave or where you live. You can't change your born identity. But God can, and does.

"You don't become a sinner by sinning, just like you don't become righteous by doing good deeds."

Okay, think about it this way. How many women do I have to rape to be considered a rapist?

One. But you're not born as a rapist. "Rapist" describes something you've done, not who you are. And if you were a rapist, and got saved, God wouldn't see you as one. And if God sees something in one way, that's the way it is.

"You're a sinner by nature, because you're born like one. I think that's a biblical idea."

You think that's a biblical idea. We are born with a sinful nature, the Bible is clear on this.

Yes we are. But when you're born again, you're not born with a sinful nature, are you?

"I'm not blaming anybody else for my own choices, but as you say, words influence, and therefore we influence each other. Christians tend to speak and think of themselves as sinners, and as long as they do that, their natural behaviour will be to sin."

They think of themselves that way because they base their lives upon the Bible and what it teaches and it teaches that people are sinners.

OK, then can you give some examples where the believers are called sinners, or where sinners are called saved or children of God or that the wicked shall inherit the kingdom or enter heaven? You can find probaly fifty verses that describes the believer as righteous, holy, child of God, saint and so forth.

"In fact, they think they can't not sin - it's their nature, they're born that way, it's who they are - do you see the hopelessness in telling someone over and over that "you're a sinner, stop sinning!""

I never tell anyone that the way out of sin is to just simply stop it. That's like telling someone of the homosexual persuasion to stop being gay. It's only a hopeless situation if the person is without Christ. With Christ, they are a forgiven sinner. Let's go back to the rapist analogy. If a person is convicted of that crime, does their time and is released back into society are they still considered a rapist? Yes they are, because they once raped someone. It doesn't matter who they are, the stain is always there, until they die. Society has forgiven them, maybe, they have paid their penalty, definitely, but they will always be regarded as a rapist. For a Christian the only way to overcome the sentence that has been pronounced on us, Hell, for our sin is to accept Jesus Christ as savior. That's what you think I'm missing. I'm not. Because I keep in mind that I'm still sinful by nature, doesn't mean I revel in sin or try and earn my way to Heaven. You're the one that would be more prone to sinning, because you're convinced that you can't sin anymore. So anything you do, you could justify by saying "oh I'm righteous, I can't sin, so whatever I do is acceptable to God."

About your analogy - if society forgives a rapist it won't consider him a rapist anymore. That's what real forgiveness is. I realize that you believe salvation from hell comes by accepting Christ, but what is it that keeps you from going on sinning?

I don't claim that everything I do is "acceptable to God" or that I never sin. In fact, nothing of what I do is acceptable to God. God has to do it himself, through me. And I'm certainly LESS prone to sin after I started reckoning myself dead to it!

Paul said to reckon ourselves DEAD TO sin, and claiming that you ARE a sinner (not just that you're not dead to sin, but that you ARE a sinner), is pretty much the exact opposite.

"Do you at least understand why I find it logical to say "you're righteous and dead from sin - you don't have to sin anymore" instead?"

You don't have to sin anymore, but we still do. Why is that?

Because sometimes I forget who I am. Those are the occasions when I sin.

"I agree, but the thing is that this is not about something we achieve the day we die! No, it's here and now, victory is here and now, salvation is here and now, righteousness and freedom is here and now! It's not about what I can hope to do, with or without the help of God, it's about what Christ has already done."

I agree. I don't know why you think I don't believe this.

Because you insist that you're a sinner. The gospel is that you've already been made righteous.

"Yes, but then people get back to the negative part again. You're a sinner, oh no, but then Jesus, oh yay, but hey, you're still a sinner, oh no, but Jesus, oh yay etc etc. Too many people just end up going around in circles, condemning themselves while struggling with sin. They're constantly being told they are sinners, and sinners sin and lose and are ashamed and afraid and weak."

They're not condemned if they're in Christ. But they are still sinners. They're forgiven sinners, but sinners still the same.

If they're in Christ, what's the point in calling them sinners? God doesn't see them as sinners. Why should we?

"He's not my pilot, he's my plane, and the air I'm flying in.

I'm a speck of dust, but still, Paul says that we're no longer servants, but sons, and co-heirs with Christ, and Christ himself is the firstborn of many brethren. I am just as righteous as Christ. That's the truth. That's why I react so strongly when people call me or any other re-born person a sinner. If you call me a sinner, you're saying the complete opposite of what God says about me."

Check out the verses in my quote. If you are saying you are without sin, that there is no sin in you, then the word of God is obviously not in you. That's the words of the Bible condemning you, not me. Just in case you wanna get all self-rigtheous on me again.

Actually, I've never been self-righteous "on you". I've repeatedly stated that Christ IS my righteousness, and that righteousness is a GIFT. I'm not saying I don't sin, I'm saying I'm not a sinner. Pretty much like you'll say that you happen to do some good deeds, but that doesn't mean you're righteous.

"I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out the significance of him dying ONCE, and raising from the dead."

 

[holo]

Nobody is debating the significance of that event.

I don't think you realize how significant it really is. Paul said that without the resurrection, the gospel was just a false hope. Still, we tend to focus almost solely on the death of Christ. The fact that he rose means (I only see in part, of course) that not only were we forgiven, but we died with him and were raised up with him and made to be like him. With his righteousness.

"Yes, and I'm sure you remember saying that I don't care about the salvation of other people."

That statement was made because of your attitude and the things you had said in that thread.

So was mine.

I made a deduction from statements you had made. That is not a sin. Telling someone to go screw themselves, according to the Biblical standard is. Your issue is not with me, but rather the written word of God.

No, you claimed I don't care about the salvation of others, which you know I do. You said it in spite and to accuse me. Don't pretend that it was "biblical" - it was, at best, a misunderstanding on your part. It was rude vile. Don't say you did better than me, and don't you dare say my issue is with God rather than you!

"Why "forgiven sinner"? Why not "sinning saint"?"

If you like that one better, use it. But by doing so you'd have to admit that you are in fact, a sinner, which you refuse to do, even though your own actions prove that you are.

No, if I say that I sin, that doesn't mean I say I'm a sinner. You can say that you do good works, but that doesn't mean you say you're righteous.

"If doing something wrong makes me a sinner, it follows that doing something right makes me righteous, doesn't it?"

Nope. The Bible is clear. You, yourself can not do anything to achieve righteousness. The only thing you can do is call on the name of Jesus to be saved. That's it. Anything else, will fail.

Exactly. But if I understand you right, then, I can determine my identity in a negative way by my actions, but not in a positive way. Correct?

No, He gives birth to a new creation. But your freewill is still intact after the rebirth. Why? There should be nothing to choose between, if we follow your line of reasoning. There should be no more temptation, no more right and wrong, but there is. You have new desires, but we don't always act or follow the right desires of our hearts do we?

True, but our desires HAVE changed. You don't actually want to sin. Deep down inside you want to be clean and holy, don't you? That's the new creation. But when you see yourself as a sinner, it's only natural that you think that the sinful desires in your flesh come from your very core. They don't.

"and that the key to getting rid of sin is by discipline or zeal or something like that."

Nope, wrong again. I've made it clear how you have to get rid of sin. Your problem is with the word repentance and what it means.

What does it mean to you?

"Yes, I know this, but the problem is that you let satan accuse you over and over."

He can accuse me all he wants. Because I know the one who paid the price for my life.

But I see no reason to agree with him, though...

"He has no right to do so."

Actually, he does. God gave him that job.

While at the same time giving Jesus the job of aquitting you? An eternal ping-pong game, almost.

"You're dead, not only to the law and sin and the world, but even to yourself. Satan simply has no right to accuse you anymore."

He has the right to accuse, but his accusations don't mean anything anymore.

That's true, so we might as well put him on ignore, so to speak. His accusations don't mean a thing. They're void. There is no condemnation for us.

"God doesn't pronounce you guilty, he pronounces you righteous! He's like the prodigal son's father."

You're missing the point. God will pronounce you guilty if you are without Christ.

Yes, but I'm not without Christ. In fact, I'm within Christ.

"Right now. If you're referring to this thread, I'm not seeking my righteousness here, I'm just debating."

Yeah, I didn't think you'd actually be willing to try righteousness. You'd rather just talk about it.

What do you mean?

"Well, I'm not writing these things to demonstrate my love for you, to be honest."

No kiddin? LOL

Well, apparently you didn't expect that either, so why point it out. Especially when you're not trying to do it yourself.

"I always hope love will shine through in everything I do, though. But I know that it often doesn't, especially in online forums."

Yep, no love shining through from you. Guess that's another sin we should be able to chalk up to you, but since you don't sin anymore, we can't.

Does my lack of love on this thread somehow contrast your abundance of it or something?

"But I DO love people, and I hate to see them slaving under sin, and that's why I'm on the offense against legalism and the idea that we're anything less than righteous. It's destroying people."

Legalism and sharing what the Bible actually says are two different things. It's not destroying people. It might be threatening to your line of thinking, but that's all.[/FONT]

No, they're not necesssarily different things. Even the devil quotes scripture. That doesn't mean I'm comparing you to him, I'm just saying that quoting the bible can do a lot of harm and fuel a lot of misconceptions, and you're no more immune to that than I am.

I know it can be horribly destructive to view oneself as a sinner, because it nearly destroyed me, and it's cost the lives of people I knew. And I've seen people blossom and be set free from sin and depression and addiction etc as they realized that they weren't sinners, but children of God, with all the rights that follow that identity.

 

[seekthetruth909]

"The problem with many Christian churches is that pride, lust, gossip, gluttony, materialism, covertness, and divorce, [for non biblical reasons] are no longer considered sin in the 21st century."

Those are all considered sin by me and I attend a church in the 21st century. As bad as my previous church was, for various reasons, they still considered those things to be sin. But if you do a sermon on let's say gluttony, how do you do so without offending at least part of your congregation, because we have a serious issue in this country with obesity and being overweight? Nobody is going to go to a church where their own personal sin is taught against. People want to go to a church that condemns others in their sin, like homosexuality.

"Many pastors do not want to scare away their congregation by mentioning these sins in the church; instead they choose to focus on sins outside the church."

True. But who are they really helping by doing this? Aren't they just coddling the congregation in their sin and saying "shh, shh, it's okay. Don't worry about that sin you committed yesterday, we won't talk about it, nobody has to know." What good is that?

"The whole purpose of a church is to worship God and to grow spirituality. Its purpose is not to make us feel self-righteous and spiritually superior to others."

Anyone who is a Christian should not feel self-righteous or superior because there was nothing they did to be made righteous in the eyes of God.

"Pastors should preach more on these sins,[in a non condemnation way] to help Christians grow in the Spirit."

How does one do that? How does on preach about a sin, in a non-condemnational kind of way? Give us an example if you would. Because once you identify a behavior as being sinful, it is only logical that a person who engages in said behavior is going to be a sinner. Well since we can't go around calling Christians sinners, we have to call sin something else, maybe a personal shortcoming? A failing? See where this is going? We punify the gospel when we do this, we deny that we are sinners. So instead of being called sinners we wish to be called, perhaps, imperfect. Fact of the matter is, we're sinners, all of us. If we weren't, Christ wouldn't have needed to take our place on the cross, die and rise from the dead to pay the price for the crimes that we committed against God.

How does one do that? How does on preach about a sin, in a non-condemnational kind of way? Give us an example if you would

One way is to use the word, “I” and “we,” instead of, “you” or “they.” I once heard a pastor preach about pride, gluttony, materialism, covertness, and self-indulgence. He made the congregation feel uncomfortable but he also kept admitting that he was also guilty of these sins. He preached with humility instead of with self-righteousness. As you said, we are all sinners. We shouldn’t forget that while judging others behavior.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22)

 

[New_Wineskin]

Nobody is going to go to a church where their own personal sin is taught against. People want to go to a church that condemns others in their sin, like homosexuality.

Absolutely !! Those under the Law love to talk about the "sins" of nonchristians . Well , what does one expect from nonchristians ? It is interesting how often those of the Law speak of sin and how little is spoken of the Lord ( except in context of sin ) . Well , those who are legalistic love to have their ears tickled by sermons on sin . They know that their own major sins won't be mentioned from the pulpit . As you wrote ... they won't go to places that would do such .

 

[New_Wineskin]

One way is to use the word, &#8220;I&#8221; and &#8220;we,&#8221; instead of, &#8220;you&#8221; or &#8220;they.&#8221; I once heard a pastor preach about pride, gluttony, materialism, covertness, and self-indulgence. He made the congregation feel uncomfortable but he also kept admitting that he was also guilty of these sins. He preached with humility instead of with self-righteousness. As you said, we are all sinners. We shouldn&#8217;t forget that while judging others behavior.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22)

I consider the best is "I" , only . I look at those who say "we" as those who want to lessen their own guilt because they want to think that "we all do it" . Or , it seems that they want to talk about everyone doing it as a means of postponing their dealing with it in their own lives . I also appreciate it because I know that they are speaking of personal and real sitiuations ( hopefuly ) so that I can apply it to any situation in my life where the Lord so leads me .

 

[Zecryphon]

This is getting tiring.

 

[Zecryphon]

"I don't think you realize how significant it really is. Paul said that without the resurrection, the gospel was just a false hope. Still, we tend to focus almost solely on the death of Christ. The fact that he rose means (I only see in part, of course) that not only were we forgiven, but we died with him and were raised up with him and made to be like him. With his righteousness."

And your opinion of my understanding of the resurrection matters why? You don't even know what I believe, you can't state it clearly as you demonstrated a couple of posts ago.

"So was mine."

If that's what you need to tell yourself, go ahead.

"No, if I say that I sin, that doesn't mean I say I'm a sinner. You can say that you do good works, but that doesn't mean you say you're righteous."

What do you call someone who sins?

"Exactly. But if I understand you right, then, I can determine my identity in a negative way by my actions, but not in a positive way. Correct?"

You can determine identity in a number of ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"and that the key to getting rid of sin is by discipline or zeal or something like that."

Nope, wrong again. I've made it clear how you have to get rid of sin. Your problem is with the word repentance and what it means.

"What does it mean to you?"

Here is how a person repents. First, they acknowledge that they have broken the law of God and that they deserve God's wrath and Hell. Second, they realize that in order to be saved they must call on the name of Jesus to be saved, confess what they have done that was in opposition to God, lying, stealing, murder, whatever the sin may be, and to turn from your sinful desires. Fight them everyday. Sometimes you will succeed and sometimes you will fail.

Why do you think God's grace is limitless? If we were all cured of our propensity to sin we would never have to ask God to forgive us for anything ever again right? But we constantly find ourselves in prayer asking God to forgive us for the things we've done wrong. Why? Because we still sin. The sin no longer condemns us to Hell because we are made clean through Christ Jesus, but we still do things that would earn us a one way ticket straight to Hell if we didn't have Jesus.

The difference between Christians and the rest of the world is, the sin we do commit carries no penalty as long as we continue to acknowledge our sin and ask forgiveness for it and try our hardest with the help of Christ to not do that sin again. It's like overcoming an addiction. We are addicted to sin, we love it. It's easy and it feels good, but without Jesus it will ultimately destroy us.


"
But I see no reason to agree with him, though..."

If you see no reason to agree with him now, why did you ever see a reason to agree with him in the past? Satan is going to accuse you, lie to you, try and confuse you, that's what he does. And guess what? God lets him! God knows the same thing you know, that with Christ, Satan's accusations hold no water.

"While at the same time giving Jesus the job of aquitting you? An eternal ping-pong game, almost."
In a way. But the game is already over. Satan thinks he can still win, somehow. But he's the only one who thinks that. God knows the game is over, we know the game is over, Jesus knows the game is over.

"Yes, but I'm not without Christ. In fact, I'm within Christ."

Yay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"Right now. If you're referring to this thread, I'm not seeking my righteousness here, I'm just debating."

Yeah, I didn't think you'd actually be willing to try righteousness. You'd rather just talk about it.

"What do you mean?"

I mean your posts do not reflect an attitude of being righteous. You'd rather talk about how righeous you are and don't sin anymore, but you don't show it in your posts. You're condescending, you're accusatory, you debate, you provoke. You do alot of the things that Paul considered to be sinful. Yet, to you it doesn't matter because those things to you aren't sinful, because you're righteous. You're falling into a trap of pride. Be careful. Now I know you'll say the same things about me, but the difference is I'll say you're right about me. Because I still sin, even though my sin carries no penalty. I acknowledge it and go to Christ to ask forgiveness and help with overcoming those sins I do still commit. You don't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"Well, I'm not writing these things to demonstrate my love for you, to be honest."

No kiddin? LOL

"Well, apparently you didn't expect that either, so why point it out. Especially when you're not trying to do it yourself."

I didn't expect what? You haven't done anything that has surprised me in the least, because I know what you are. You're a forgiven sinner and you're acting like one. Why should I be surprised by anything you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"I always hope love will shine through in everything I do, though. But I know that it often doesn't, especially in online forums."

Yep, no love shining through from you. Guess that's another sin we should be able to chalk up to you, but since you don't sin anymore, we can't.

"Does my lack of love on this thread somehow contrast your abundance of it or something?"

No. What it does is it proves my point that you still sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"But I DO love people, and I hate to see them slaving under sin, and that's why I'm on the offense against legalism and the idea that we're anything less than righteous. It's destroying people."

Legalism and sharing what the Bible actually says are two different things. It's not destroying people. It might be threatening to your line of thinking, but that's all.[/font]

"No, they're not necesssarily different things. Even the devil quotes scripture. That doesn't mean I'm comparing you to him, I'm just saying that quoting the bible can do a lot of harm and fuel a lot of misconceptions, and you're no more immune to that than I am."

Never said I was. That's why we must stay in the word and apply it's truth to our lives.

"I know it can be horribly destructive to view oneself as a sinner, because it nearly destroyed me, and it's cost the lives of people I knew. And I've seen people blossom and be set free from sin and depression and addiction etc as they realized that they weren't sinners, but children of God, with all the rights that follow that identity"

You're set free by knowing there is no condemnation for your sin anymore. You're not set free from the ability to still engage in sin. We all prove that one every day. You can deny this all you want, but it won't change the truth.

 

[holo]

And your opinion of my understanding of the resurrection matters why? You don't even know what I believe, you can't state it clearly as you demonstrated a couple of posts ago.

Well, that's what debates are for, isn't it? Finding out what people believe. My opinion of your understanding of something may not matter much, but your understanding of it does. In this case, I believe your understanding is lacking.

What do you call someone who sins?

A person. WHat do you call someone who does something righteous?

You can determine identity in a number of ways.

True. But the bible does seem to speak of the believers as "children" and "sons" and "heirs" and such, suggesting that it has to do with birth rather than behaviour.

Here is how a person repents. First, they acknowledge that they have broken the law of God and that they deserve God's wrath and Hell. Second, they realize that in order to be saved they must call on the name of Jesus to be saved, confess what they have done that was in opposition to God, lying, stealing, murder, whatever the sin may be, and to turn from your sinful desires. Fight them everyday. Sometimes you will succeed and sometimes you will fail.

Fair enough. I believe that repentance pretty simply means to turn from yourself to God, including that you stop trying to fight sinful desires, but rather give up and depend 100% on God.

Why do you think God's grace is limitless? If we were all cured of our propensity to sin we would never have to ask God to forgive us for anything ever again right? But we constantly find ourselves in prayer asking God to forgive us for the things we've done wrong. Why? Because we still sin. The sin no longer condemns us to Hell because we are made clean through Christ Jesus, but we still do things that would earn us a one way ticket straight to Hell if we didn't have Jesus.

Yes, forgiveness is unlimited too, but grace isn't just forgiveness. Grace is the very power by which we grow and conquer sin, it doesn't only forgive us for it.

The difference between Christians and the rest of the world is, the sin we do commit carries no penalty as long as we continue to acknowledge our sin and ask forgiveness for it and try our hardest with the help of Christ to not do that sin again. It's like overcoming an addiction. We are addicted to sin, we love it. It's easy and it feels good, but without Jesus it will ultimately destroy us.

The difference is far more than forgiveness!

If you see no reason to agree with him now, why did you ever see a reason to agree with him in the past?

Because I thought he was right.

I mean your posts do not reflect an attitude of being righteous. You'd rather talk about how righeous you are and don't sin anymore, but you don't show it in your posts.

I don't say I don't sin anymore. But I am saying that I sin far less than when I saw myself as a sinner.

It's certainly better to talk about how righteous we are than how sinful we are.

You're condescending, you're accusatory, you debate, you provoke. You do alot of the things that Paul considered to be sinful. Yet, to you it doesn't matter because those things to you aren't sinful, because you're righteous.

No, I believe that's just as sinful as you do. Me being righteous doesn't make sin something else. It makes me something else.

You're falling into a trap of pride. Be careful. Now I know you'll say the same things about me, but the difference is I'll say you're right about me. Because I still sin, even though my sin carries no penalty. I acknowledge it and go to Christ to ask forgiveness and help with overcoming those sins I do still commit. You don't do that.

Yes I do. Why do you say I don't?

No. What it does is it proves my point that you still sin.

OK. I haven't said I don't sin.

You're set free by knowing there is no condemnation for your sin anymore. You're not set free from the ability to still engage in sin. We all prove that one every day. You can deny this all you want, but it won't change the truth.

You're not set free from the ability to sin, but you're set free from the want to sin. Deep down inside, none of us wants to sin. We loathe sin. Compare it with your lov for your family. It runs much deeper than, say, your desire to get drunk. The problem is that we think sinful desires come from our hearts, that our hearts are the problem. And so we try to combat our inner desires with the flesh, so to speak, instead of the other way around. See what i mean?

 

[Zecryphon]

"Well, that's what debates are for, isn't it? Finding out what people believe."

Nope. Debates are for determining the validity of a proposed statement. Coversations are for finding out what people believe and learning about others.

"My opinion of your understanding of something may not matter much, but your understanding of it does. In this case, I believe your understanding is lacking."

Yep, that's what you believe alright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
What do you call someone who sins?

"A person. WHat do you call someone who does something righteous?"

There isn't anybody who does anything righteous. To do something righteous would mean that you are good. Jesus Himself said that no one is good except God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You can determine identity in a number of ways.

"True. But the bible does seem to speak of the believers as "children" and "sons" and "heirs" and such, suggesting that it has to do with birth rather than behaviour."

You mean rebirth. When we're born, we're born with a sinful nature.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Here is how a person repents. First, they acknowledge that they have broken the law of God and that they deserve God's wrath and Hell. Second, they realize that in order to be saved they must call on the name of Jesus to be saved, confess what they have done that was in opposition to God, lying, stealing, murder, whatever the sin may be, and to turn from your sinful desires. Fight them everyday. Sometimes you will succeed and sometimes you will fail.

"Fair enough. I believe that repentance pretty simply means to turn from yourself to God, including that you stop trying to fight sinful desires, but rather give up and depend 100% on God."

So basically sit on your hands, do nothing and let God run your life? If God wanted you to do that, why would He let you keep the gift of freewill after you're born again?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Why do you think God's grace is limitless? If we were all cured of our propensity to sin we would never have to ask God to forgive us for anything ever again right? But we constantly find ourselves in prayer asking God to forgive us for the things we've done wrong. Why? Because we still sin. The sin no longer condemns us to Hell because we are made clean through Christ Jesus, but we still do things that would earn us a one way ticket straight to Hell if we didn't have Jesus.

"Yes, forgiveness is unlimited too, but grace isn't just forgiveness. Grace is the very power by which we grow and conquer sin, it doesn't only forgive us for it."

I never said grace was limited to just forgiveness. I believe the Holy Spirit has more to do with helping us fight sin than grace does, but that's just me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The difference between Christians and the rest of the world is, the sin we do commit carries no penalty as long as we continue to acknowledge our sin and ask forgiveness for it and try our hardest with the help of Christ to not do that sin again. It's like overcoming an addiction. We are addicted to sin, we love it. It's easy and it feels good, but without Jesus it will ultimately destroy us.

"The difference is far more than forgiveness!"

Calm down. You'll give yourself an aneurism. The difference is we are forgiven for our sin and they are not. They will burn, we will live. That's the difference. I'm talking about eternal consequences for sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
If you see no reason to agree with him now, why did you ever see a reason to agree with him in the past?

"Because I thought he was right."

Why did you think that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
I mean your posts do not reflect an attitude of being righteous. You'd rather talk about how righeous you are and don't sin anymore, but you don't show it in your posts.

"I don't say I don't sin anymore. But I am saying that I sin far less than when I saw myself as a sinner."

You have said repeatedly that Christians as a group don't sin. You're a Christian, therefore you are part of that group, therefore you don't sin.

From post # 45 of this thread:
"I believe that we're not sinners, but righteous."

From post # 81 of this thread:
"Because it's not true. We're not in fact sinners."


From post # 84 of this thread:
"if I say that I sin, that doesn't mean I say I'm a sinner."


Just because you deny that you are a sinner, doesn't make your denial true.

"It's certainly better to talk about how righteous we are than how sinful we are."

I disagree. Only by remembering that you still possess a sinful nature, will you be reminded that you need to call on Jesus to help you fight that sinful nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You're condescending, you're accusatory, you debate, you provoke. You do alot of the things that Paul considered to be sinful. Yet, to you it doesn't matter because those things to you aren't sinful, because you're righteous.

"No, I believe that's just as sinful as you do. Me being righteous doesn't make sin something else. It makes me something else."

So now you're agreeing with me that you do engage in sin? Thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You're falling into a trap of pride. Be careful. Now I know you'll say the same things about me, but the difference is I'll say you're right about me. Because I still sin, even though my sin carries no penalty. I acknowledge it and go to Christ to ask forgiveness and help with overcoming those sins I do still commit. You don't do that.

"Yes I do. Why do you say I don't?"

I don't say that, your posts do. See your comments above that I've pulled from this thread. If those statements made by you are true, you have no need to go to God and ask forgiveness, because you are not a sinner, you're righeous. Only sinners need to ask forgiveness for their sins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
No. What it does is it proves my point that you still sin.

"OK. I haven't said I don't sin."

Already proved you have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You're set free by knowing there is no condemnation for your sin anymore. You're not set free from the ability to still engage in sin. We all prove that one every day. You can deny this all you want, but it won't change the truth.

"You're not set free from the ability to sin, but you're set free from the want to sin."

Now you're gettin' it.

"Deep down inside, none of us wants to sin. We loathe sin. Compare it with your lov for your family. It runs much deeper than, say, your desire to get drunk. The problem is that we think sinful desires come from our hearts, that our hearts are the problem. And so we try to combat our inner desires with the flesh, so to speak, instead of the other way around. See what i mean?"

I don't limit the source of sin to one area like the heart or the flesh. It is our nature to be sinful. That's why we wrestle with it every day. We take up our cross and follow Jesus and deny ourselves, but we still struggle with sin and temptation and there's no shame in admitting that.

 

[holo]

Nope. Debates are for determining the validity of a proposed statement. Coversations are for finding out what people believe and learning about others.

Agreed, but in order to have a sensible debate we need to know what the other person means. We've misunderstood each other several times.

"A person. WHat do you call someone who does something righteous?"

There isn't anybody who does anything righteous. To do something righteous would mean that you are good. Jesus Himself said that no one is good except God.

Well, first of all, we've been made good, we who are in Christ. Secondly, yes, it's possible to do good things, and people do in fact do good things. You and I don't only sin, we also do righteous things, for example if we give food to a hungry person.

Now, good deeds don't make us righteous. We agree on that. But how is it that a sin can make you a sinner, while a good deed doesn't make you righteous?

"True. But the bible does seem to speak of the believers as "children" and "sons" and "heirs" and such, suggesting that it has to do with birth rather than behaviour."

You mean rebirth. When we're born, we're born with a sinful nature.

Yes, but then when you're reborn, you're not born with a sinful nature, are you? That's the whole point, isn't it? That the old man dies and a NEW man is born.

So basically sit on your hands, do nothing and let God run your life? If God wanted you to do that, why would He let you keep the gift of freewill after you're born again?

No, I run my own life. I decide what to do from minute to minute. But the good works that I do, the Lord has prepared for me beforehand. So in a way, it's not I who do it, but rather Jesus living his life through me. The thing is, my spirit, my inner man, wants nothing but to please God and do good things. I don't want to sin. I don't like sin. As Paul said, it's no longer he who sins, but "sin that lives in his flesh".

"Yes, forgiveness is unlimited too, but grace isn't just forgiveness. Grace is the very power by which we grow and conquer sin, it doesn't only forgive us for it."

I never said grace was limited to just forgiveness. I believe the Holy Spirit has more to do with helping us fight sin than grace does, but that's just me.

I agree, that's something of what the Spirit does, he helps us.

The difference is we are forgiven for our sin and they are not. They will burn, we will live. That's the difference. I'm talking about eternal consequences for sin.

Yes, but there's more. Even the old jews had their sins covered by making offerings. But Jesus did more than that, he made all things new, he didn't only forgive the old man, he killed him and created a new one. We're not just forgiven sinners, we're children of God.

"Because I thought he was right."

Why did you think that?

I was taught so, directly and by implication. I was told I was a sinner, therefore I saw myself as one and acted like one.

"I don't say I don't sin anymore. But I am saying that I sin far less than when I saw myself as a sinner."

You have said repeatedly that Christians as a group don't sin. You're a Christian, therefore you are part of that group, therefore you don't sin.

No, I've repeatedly said that commiting a sin doesn't make you a sinner, any more than doing a good deed makes you righteous.

Just because you deny that you are a sinner, doesn't make your denial true.

True, and just because you deny that you're righteous, doesn't mean you're not.

I disagree. Only by remembering that you still possess a sinful nature, will you be reminded that you need to call on Jesus to help you fight that sinful nature.

I'm very aware of sin in my life. But I know that sin isn't me, sin is something that contradicts my true nature.

So now you're agreeing with me that you do engage in sin? Thank you.

I've never denied that.

"Yes I do. Why do you say I don't?"

I don't say that, your posts do. See your comments above that I've pulled from this thread. If those statements made by you are true, you have no need to go to God and ask forgiveness, because you are not a sinner, you're righeous. Only sinners need to ask forgiveness for their sins.

In a way, that's true. I don't ask for forgiveness, I only receive it, whenever I need it. All my sin and guilt has been dealt with. But the thing is, when I come to God, he doesn't see me as a filthy sinner, he sees me as his dear child. God sees you as his child in much the same way you would see your child as your child, more than a "sinner".

I don't limit the source of sin to one area like the heart or the flesh. It is our nature to be sinful. That's why we wrestle with it every day. We take up our cross and follow Jesus and deny ourselves, but we still struggle with sin and temptation and there's no shame in admitting that.

Absolutely, we all struggle in one way or another.

But the real solution is to realize that you're already dead. You're dead to sin, and to the law, so sin has no power. The only way satan can get at you is by lying. The more you realize who you are, the more you realize that you're righteous and free and perfect and clean, the less you'll sin. I know it works, because I experience it every day. When I'm tempted, instead of fighting it with zeal or discipline, I may instead remind myself that hey, I'm righteous, I'm not a sinner, that stuff doesn't appeal to me, I don't want that crap, I want to be clean and holy.

Calling yourself a sinner basically means that you want to sin, that you like to sin.

 

[Zecryphon]

"Agreed, but in order to have a sensible debate we need to know what the other person means. We've misunderstood each other several times."

But we're not actually having a debate, because neither one of us has put forth a statement that is having its validity tested. Rather we're having a conversation.

"Well, first of all, we've been made good, we who are in Christ. Secondly, yes, it's possible to do good things, and people do in fact do good things."

If the Bible is your standard of truth, people do not do good things. They may do things that are considered good by other people, but it's not the standard of other people that concerns me.

"You and I don't only sin, we also do righteous things, for example if we give food to a hungry person."

It's only righteous if the motivation behind that act is pure and not self-serving. Like if we give food to the homeless because we think we're gonna score "saint points" in Heaven after we die, that's the wrong motivation.

"Now, good deeds don't make us righteous. We agree on that. But how is it that a sin can make you a sinner, while a good deed doesn't make you righteous?"

Because the definition of righteous is to be of upstanding moral character, behavior and virtuous. All those things are subjective based upon the individual and how they define moral behavior and virtuosity. So who's standard are you using when you say righteous? I hope it's God's.

"Yes, but then when you're reborn, you're not born with a sinful nature, are you? That's the whole point, isn't it? That the old man dies and a NEW man is born."

If we do not retain the sinful nature in some way, why do we still sin? How is that possible? If the desire to sin has been taken away, why do we still engage in it from time to time?

"No, I run my own life."

That statement contradicts what you've said before. See this comment from you in post # 90:

"I believe that repentance pretty simply means to turn from yourself to God, including that you stop trying to fight sinful desires, but rather give up and depend 100% on God."

If you've given up trying to fight your sin on your own and are dependent 100% upon God, then you're not in control of your own life and are not making decisions minute by minute. You have surrendered yourself to God and His plan for your life and He is living through you, which you have affirmed in many of your posts thus far. So which is it? Are you in control or is God in control of you?

"But the good works that I do, the Lord has prepared for me beforehand. So in a way, it's not I who do it, but rather Jesus living his life through me."

See comments above.

"I was taught so, directly and by implication. I was told I was a sinner, therefore I saw myself as one and acted like one."

Did you question it at all or did you just blindly accept it because those in a position of authority told you that's the way it was? I also don't buy into the whole "oh I'm a sinner, so I'm gonna go out and sin thing either as a justification for sinful behavior. People who aren't Christians but live in opposition to God don't consider themselves sinners. They think they're normal and like everybody else. Sin is considered to be a religious concept, something most religions must have in order to make people fall into line. This is of course not true, but that's the wy alot of people view it, at least in America.

"I've never denied that."

I've already shown in a previous post that you have.

"In a way, that's true. I don't ask for forgiveness, I only receive it, whenever I need it. All my sin and guilt has been dealt with. But the thing is, when I come to God, he doesn't see me as a filthy sinner, he sees me as his dear child. God sees you as his child in much the same way you would see your child as your child, more than a "sinner"."

God only sees you as His child because of Jesus. If God weren't viewing you through Jesus, you'd be a sinner guilty of serious crimes and deserving of Hell.

"But the real solution is to realize that you're already dead. You're dead to sin, and to the law, so sin has no power. The only way satan can get at you is by lying. The more you realize who you are, the more you realize that you're righteous and free and perfect and clean, the less you'll sin. I know it works, because I experience it every day. When I'm tempted, instead of fighting it with zeal or discipline, I may instead remind myself that hey, I'm righteous, I'm not a sinner, that stuff doesn't appeal to me, I don't want that crap, I want to be clean and holy."

But that's a form of fighting sin on your own. You're using positive dialogue with yourself to convince yourself of who you are and what you've been made into and to stop yourself from giving into the temptation you've been presented with.

"Calling yourself a sinner basically means that you want to sin, that you like to sin."

No. It means that you recognize that you have committed a sin. But we'll have to agree to disagree on this, like we always have in the past.

 

[holo]

But we're not actually having a debate, because neither one of us has put forth a statement that is having its validity tested. Rather we're having a conversation.

Fair enough. Let's converse

If the Bible is your standard of truth, people do not do good things. They may do things that are considered good by other people, but it's not the standard of other people that concerns me.

But the bible mentions good and righteous works a whole lot. There are even passages that can very well be taken to mean that you can do so good works as to justify you!

(I don't agree with that, though).

Paul, for one, mentiones works and deeds that are actually good, and thanks people for doing them and encourages them to do such things. People do good things, and people do bad things. Nobody does ONLY good or ONLY bad works.

It's only righteous if the motivation behind that act is pure and not self-serving. Like if we give food to the homeless because we think we're gonna score "saint points" in Heaven after we die, that's the wrong motivation.

Absolutetly. I think that is the kind of thing that will be burned up like "hay and rubble" at judgment.

Because the definition of righteous is to be of upstanding moral character, behavior and virtuous. All those things are subjective based upon the individual and how they define moral behavior and virtuosity. So who's standard are you using when you say righteous? I hope it's God's.

Yes, so since we have the righteousness of Jesus, we have all that. Our righteousness is equal to that of Jesus. You may not see it, but it's true. You have to grasp it in faith, you have to act on it for it to become really manifest.

Compare it with Peter walking on the water in faith, by looking at Jesus. He overcame the law of gravity! In the same way, we can conquer the "law of sin and death" by gazing on the same Jesus. The world (and a lot of religous people) will say that it's impossible. They'll say it's hopless, that we're sinners, that it's impossible. But let's not be conformed to the ways of this world, let's deny ourselves and look at him instead.

Faith is so important. It think the whole point here is faith. I've stopped believeing the "fact" that I'm a sinner, and instead turned to the Lord, who calls me a saint. And the more I do that, the more I become saintlike, and the less I sin. When we look at Jesus, we're transformed into the same image.

If we do not retain the sinful nature in some way, why do we still sin? How is that possible? If the desire to sin has been taken away, why do we still engage in it from time to time?

Because we don't know, or forget, who we are. We're like millionaires who walk around without money because we don't realize it's all in the bank. We're like butterflies trying to crawl around like caterpillars.

That statement contradicts what you've said before. See this comment from you in post # 90:

"I believe that repentance pretty simply means to turn from yourself to God, including that you stop trying to fight sinful desires, but rather give up and depend 100% on God."

If you've given up trying to fight your sin on your own and are dependent 100% upon God, then you're not in control of your own life and are not making decisions minute by minute. You have surrendered yourself to God and His plan for your life and He is living through you, which you have affirmed in many of your posts thus far. So which is it? Are you in control or is God in control of you?

Good question. I don't want to get too philosophical about it. But even if I'm walking in something he's already prepared, it's still I who do it, at the same time that it's all HIS doing. When facing temptation, for example, I don't turn to my own ability to be diciplined, for example, but rather to him. So in a way, we both do it. That is, I make the choice/action of turning to God, but it is God who gives me both the will and the ability to do right. Even myfaith is a gift. I only choose to receive it.

In short, I may do a good thing, but God gets the credit. The glory belongs to him.

Did you question it at all or did you just blindly accept it because those in a position of authority told you that's the way it was? I also don't buy into the whole "oh I'm a sinner, so I'm gonna go out and sin thing either as a justification for sinful behavior. People who aren't Christians but live in opposition to God don't consider themselves sinners. They think they're normal and like everybody else. Sin is considered to be a religious concept, something most religions must have in order to make people fall into line. This is of course not true, but that's the wy alot of people view it, at least in America.

It was pretty much what everybody believed. It didn't occur to me to question it, because people would cite bible verses and point at this or that sin all the time. We were told that
a) we were sinners, and hence we couldn't really help sinning, and
b) that there still was never an excuse for sinning.
Not explicitly, but that's what it boils down to. So naturally, our whole relationship with the Lord as mostly characterized by grieving and prayer and repentance and fear and tears. And the worst part is, none of us ever got any better at not sinning!

I see the same thing among many christians today.

"I've never denied that."

I've already shown in a previous post that you have.

No no. I can drive a bus, but that doesn't make me a bus driver. You can train a dog to act like a cat and beleive he's a cat, but hel'll still be a dog.

I may commit sin, but that doesn't mean I'm a sinner. I belong to God. I can speak german, but that doesn't make me a german. I can never become a real german, even if I moved there. And I could live in Norway acting like a german, even believing I was one, but I'd still be norwegian. It would be better for me to realize who I am and start taking advantage of my identity and enjoy the rights I have as a citizen here. Instead of saying, "well I speak german and eat sauerkraut, so I must be one."

God only sees you as His child because of Jesus. If God weren't viewing you through Jesus, you'd be a sinner guilty of serious crimes and deserving of Hell.

I think that's a faulty way of looking at it. In the old covenant, sins were covered. In the new covenant, they're washed away. Your sins are as far from you as the east is from the west. God doesn't remember them anymore. Thats why satan can't accuse you. You are in fact blameless.

But that's a form of fighting sin on your own. You're using positive dialogue with yourself to convince yourself of who you are and what you've been made into and to stop yourself from giving into the temptation you've been presented with.

That's true. Because I know right from wrong, and if wrong tempts me, I need to remember who I really am.

It's like when God set me free from drug addiction. I was free for a long time before I actually stopped getting high. It was still very much a habit, and I simpoly din't realize that I was doing fine being sober. I was just used to thinking that getting high was my only way to find rest. Same with porn, for example. I used to think it gave me something, that it felt good at least for a while. But in reality, it doesn't give my anything at all. No sin does. It's a lie.

The way to get fre from sin is by reckoning yourself dead to it. But I'm afraid that hearing that you're a sinner over and over again will make you thinkg that you're very much alive to it instead. That's how it's worked with me and those around me at least.

 

[pdfiddler]

Debates are for winning elections. The old saying " If you can talk someone in to something,someone else can talk them out of it". We speak heart to heart, not mind to mind.

 

[Nadiine]

Debates are for winning elections. The old saying " If you can talk someone in to something,someone else can talk them out of it". We speak heart to heart, not mind to mind.

Well, that's very true!!

But, Jude did tell us

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. ​

I think debate without prayer for the hearer is the bigger error.
God can always water the seeds that are sown down the road.
Only God can soften hearts. amen

Peace,