More and more churches exploding?

[seekthetruth909]

Very true . While certain groups continually rant and rave about homosexuality that they don't consider is in their midst , little or nothing is mentioned about adultry which exists in many of their groups . And , how much is mentioned from the pulpits concerning abused spouses and children that are in attendance ? Look in the forums . You will find quite a few threads on homosexuality . How many threads on adultry or spousal abuse or child abuse among christians ?

By focusing on the sins that are not happening within their groups , they lessen the time that they can spend on those sins withing them . The leaven grows and spreads .

Going back to the OP . There are groups where the leader is caught in adultry and the people who leae are those that are disgusted that the leader will not step down and a large part of the group doesn't care and like to hear the person speak .

Why aren't there more posts against adultery, spousal & child abuse??

BECUZ WE ALL AGREE THAT IT'S SIN. The reason for homosexual threads is becuz liberal theology adherants ARE PROMOTING IT AS A GODLY LIFESTYLE which violates God's word. It's being pushed onto the church.

There is a spiritual war going on about that sin - not about child abuse & adultery which are predominantly already accepted as sinful.

Many of your posts that I read also seem to focus on the "sins" of conservative/Orthodox Christians too -
perhaps in order to change this trend you notice, (of us viewing others sins so we can focus on our own), we have to first change ourselves - removing our own planks.

I believe the point New Wineskins was trying to make is that adultery, spousal and child abuse, and homosexuality are all sins. But homosexuality is for the most part outside the church. Yes there are a few Anglican churches [that were liberal to begin with] that promote homosexuality, but for the most part the majority of Christian churches oppose it. The problem with many Christian churches is that pride, lust, gossip, gluttony, materialism, covertness, and divorce, [for non biblical reasons] are no longer considered sin in the 21st century. Many pastors do not want to scare away their congregation by mentioning these sins in the church; instead they choose to focus on sins outside the church. The whole purpose of a church is to worship God and to grow spirituality. Its purpose is not to make us feel self-righteous and spiritually superior to others. Pastors should preach more on these sins,[in a non condemnation way] to help Christians grow in the Spirit.

In my church I recently tried to bring up the problem Christians are having with lust and pornography. Pastorscom recently reported that 40% of pastors are viewing pornography on the internet along with over 50% of church members. No one in my church wanted to discuss it. Instead they would rather focus on the next anti gay demonstration. This problem is invading mainstreams churches much more than homosexuality, but many do not wish to address it, because it may tarnish their image of righteousness.

The real spiritual war is in the mainstream churches, which follow the bible, because this is where the enemy can do the most damage. You are correct. We should get our house in order before we start to judge non Christians for sin.

God Bless you in your search for truth

 

[seekthetruth909]

Somehow, everything seems to be Conservative Christians' faults

I'd think if conservative Christians are so horrible, the bible writers must be too - we're basically only abiding by what's written for us there.

Why do American Christian conservatives interpret the bible differently than conservative Christians from other parts of the world? I have lived in Canada, Europe and the US. Conservatives in other western countries agree with American conservatives on issues like abortion, sexual immorality and homosexuality but many have a completely different biblical interpretation on social programs for the poor, gun control, capital punishment, and military action. Who is right? Does the geographical you are raised in affect your interpretation of scripture? God’s Word should be true regardless of where you live.

God Bless

 

[seekthetruth909]

Even though I don't agree that (my interpretation of a translation of a version of) the bible is dictated by God), you don't agree with all the other conservatives anyway, do you? So even if you view the bible in the same manner, that doesn't make you agree on what's true.

We all (everybody on CF at least) believe that the bible is not only true, but also largely clear. But we still disagree. What's really sad is that so many of us seem unable to blame it on different understandings and viewpoints instead of heresy.

Our understanding is always subjective. It can never be truly objective. That doesn't mean truth changes, though. It just means that even Nadiine may actually be wrong about something.

Good point! But that also means you could be wrong.


On the contrary, I believe you misunderstand a lot of scripture because your premise is faulty. If your premise is that you're righteous as opposed to a sinner, you will find that the rest of scripture actually builds up under that, and it becomes apparent that we have already been crucified with Him. .

I don’t think Nadine thinks she is righteous, she is an honest seeker of the truth like yourself. Her belief system like yours and mine is partly based on scripture and partly based on geographical location,upbringing,peers, and church. But regardless of this we all believe in the most important thing, that Jesus died for our sins and is God.

I agree that believing we are righteous will hinder our interpretation of scripture, but accepting you are a sinner does not guarantee that your interpretation is correct. You can admit you are a sinner and still be proud.[not directed at you] One thing I notice on this website is that many people are entrenched in their belief system and don’t want to consider that they can’t be right a hundred percent of the time. Only Jesus had perfect understanding. The rest of us are fallible. We must walk with true humility to be wise.

God Bless

Proverbs 13:10
Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.

Proverbs 11:2
When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom

 

[Nadiine]

I don’t think Nadine thinks she is righteous, she is an honest seeker of the truth like yourself. Her belief system like yours and mine is partly based on scripture and partly based on geographical location,upbringing,peers, and church. But regardless of this we all believe in the most important thing, that Jesus died for our sins and is God.

I agree that believing we are righteous will hinder our interpretation of scripture, but accepting you are a sinner does not guarantee that your interpretation is correct. You can admit you are a sinner and still be proud.[not directed at you] One thing I notice on this website is that many people are entrenched in their belief system and don’t want to consider that they can’t be right a hundred percent of the time. Only Jesus had perfect understanding. The rest of us are fallible. We must walk with true humility to be wise.

Thank you Seek - I don't think I'm righteous... in fact, just the opposite. The reason for that is, I KNOW MYSELF & [some of] MY INNER HEART & MOTIVES.
I know the terrible thoughts that swirl around my head that I reject & fight to push out... I know my desires & flaws...
Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

At the same time, I know Christ's righteousness is over me - I am a child of the King, and heir.
The truth is, the righteousness I have, isn't my own; therefore I have no pride in myself or think more highly of myself than I should. Salvation is by HIS grace that HE provided for me. NOT by myself.
It's HIS RIGHTEOUS BANNER OVER ME that makes me who I am in Christ.

I struggle like the next person with it all. It's due to that, that I often wonder why God loves us & deals with us at all. We tend to think we're so wonderful & innately "good"... we are not.
Instead, I operate out of GRATITUDE for God loving me - doing what He's done for me when He owes me NOTHING:

"what is man that thou art mindful of him?"​

I think if we read the bible knowing who we really are in correlation to God's holiness & righteousness & realize how FAR we come short, we'd be more balanced.​

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?​

Where I take issue is where people deny central teachings found in scripture (and/or reject/invalidate scripture importance altogether)... which distinguishes us as genuine Christians.

Mat 7:21-23 'MANY will say to Me on that day,.. not everyone who says to me, Lord Lord will enter the kingdom..' "depart from Me you who work at/practice iniquity, I never knew you."

It says MANY will say that to Jesus; thinking they were His; not a few. And that the MAJORITY take the wide gate & broad paths to destruction.
I have many issues w/ liberal theology - & how it CHANGES, distorts & denies the truth of scripture- including some of the essential doctrines unto salvation. This is why the early churches WROTE their creeds; to establish ONE set belief system for unity in the church of God.

They were staving off the false teachings that kept creeping in. Today, we don't have church leaders that write creeds for the vast majority of Christiandom - so, THE INFILTRATION OF NEW TEACHINGS [& false doctrines] CONTINUES TO POUR IN.

We're left to battle against it individually. (but, this is prophecied to happen in the last days)... so be it.
That's where I'm coming from in my worldview.

 

[holo]

I don’t think Nadine thinks she is righteous, she is an honest seeker of the truth like yourself. Her belief system like yours and mine is partly based on scripture and partly based on geographical location,upbringing,peers, and church. But regardless of this we all believe in the most important thing, that Jesus died for our sins and is God.

Absolutetly.

I agree that believing we are righteous will hinder our interpretation of scripture, but accepting you are a sinner does not guarantee that your interpretation is correct.

I believe the exact opposite, I believe that we're not sinners, but righteous. I used to believe I was a sinner, and naturally that determined how I read the bible, how I prayed, how I lived my life, how I viewed myself. It sucked, basically.

Nadiine, just a little thought experiment, not an argument or debate or quarrel; just imagine for a minute, pretend that you're not a sinner, pretend that you're 100% righteous 24/7, that you're clean in every respect and that your entire life and being and destiny comes from that. Can you imagine what it must be like?

It all comes together when you realize who you are.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

 

[Starcrystal]

I agree with your above assessment - what you describe is exactly what the Pharisees of Jesus' day were doing to the people with the rules & regulations they tacked on to the Law.
& now you see why Jesus was infuriated at them. He called them "sons of hell".

Their legalism stumbled people from coming to God.

HOWEVER, the legalists being attacked by those of the liberal theology, aren't ONLY those types; most include ALL conservative Christians as 'legalistic' because we uphold the Bible as God's word of [absolute] truth and preach against sin which the bible clearly specifies to do.

We're called to give the WHOLE counsel of God, not bits of pieces that we like most & keep us comfy. (keeping us from growth).

Jesus calls us to take up our cross (DIE TO SELF) and follow Him; if that's an ungodly message, then we must be following a different Shepherd.

It's THIS balanced message that is being attacked lately. As if any mention of condemnation or sin or holiness are out of place.

True. I am on quite a few other boards and awhile back I posted a message on a Christian group that might be considered alternative, but the members are born again Christians. My message spoke up about homosexuality and abortion as being sin, and how so many people were just accepting these things even among Christians. I got one reply that my message sounded like an intolerant fundamentalist.
Those who know me know I am not legalistic and I had my bout with radical fundamentalism several years ago... yet I spoke out about sin and the label was immediately applied.

 

[Nadiine]

True. I am on quite a few other boards and awhile back I posted a message on a Christian group that might be considered alternative, but the members are born again Christians. My message spoke up about homosexuality and abortion as being sin, and how so many people were just accepting these things even among Christians. I got one reply that my message sounded like an intolerant fundamentalist.
Those who know me know I am not legalistic and I had my bout with radical fundamentalism several years ago... yet I spoke out about sin and the label was immediately applied.

THANK YOU! YES. To make any statements as to what SIN IS (as per the bible) IS LEGALISM to them. They cannot be told right or wrong. that's "evil".

Paul fought antinomianism in Corinthians & Romans.

When the law was fulfilled by Christ & the Grace covenant came in, people were thinking "hey, we aren't UNDER LAW anymore, so that must mean we're WITHOUT ANY CONSTRAINTS OR RULES in Christianity BECAUSE JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS WE COMMIT.
SO, EAT DRINK & BE MERRY IN SIN".

That's alive & well today. Mention that anything is "sinful" and wait for the assaults (from these TOLERANT people ) lol...

conservative Christians in their eyes are "intolerant, fundamentalist, self righteous bigots".

Thank you for mentioning this, I am in 100% agreement with you here. amen

 

[linssue55]

I have friends and/or family that all at one time gone to these churches. It is very disturbing to hear these stories from them. Has anyone else seen a trend like this before?

This is not surprissing at all, this IS the devil's world, too many pastors don't TEACH the word, but INSTEAD have social gatherings, and bingo, and MANY themselves do not FOLLOW the word. This is how the church should be........DEFINATELY WORTH READING!!


Man Made Religion Vs Biblical Christianity


Are you in a man-made religious gathering? If so, you most likely don't think you are. I pray that you would read this to see if you are and to see Gods way of gathering as the church. This is a very important issue, for if you are not in God's will, you are in danger. In danger of being decievd by traditions of men that make the word of no effect. In danger of quenching the spirit. In danger of playing church, in danger of a false ministry bringing you into bondage etc.
One way to examine if you are or not in danger, is to compare everything you do in your gatherings with the scriptures of truth and with the apostolic patterns we see in the scriptures. Jesus said that many in his day were making the word of God of no effect by their man-made traditions (Mark 7:13). But, there are biblical traditions and patterns which believers should follow (2 Thes. 2:15) these are in contrast to the corrupt, spirit quenching, religiosity of man-made order.

Paul warned us to,"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after the traditions of man after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ...For ye are complete in him which is the head" (Col. 2:8,10). Can we dare to take this warning lightly?

Here is a comparison of some of the man-made order that we see in many gatherings compared with God's way.

Institutional Religion after man

They meet in large 9Mega churches) man-made buildings called "churches, the house of God, or sanctuaries". And the true church,(which is the body of Christ) loses its focus and function. Many still lie and refer to the buildings as "churches or the house of God", even if they acknowledge that the people are the church

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They meet in homes around Christ, following the apostolic patterns in the bible. (Acts 2:46,47, Rom. 16:3,5, Col. 4;15, Phil. 1:2, 1 Cor 16:19). And the believers recognize that they are the church & temple of God (Eph.1:22,23, 2:21). Also "The most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands." (Acts 7:48)

Institutional Religion after man

They started to build buildings as churches about 250 to 300 years after Christ. The buildings projects really developed around the time of Constantine.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They started to meet in homes right from the start (Acts 2:2), under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through Christ. They were not driven into homes by persecution, (Acts 2:46,47).


Institutional Religion after man

They have leaders who are in a separate, priestly or hierarchical role and there is a division between the "clergy" (so called) and the "laity' (so called). The laity (as they are referred to) are passive generally and not active in the gatherings. Even if the leaders are not called "the clergy", they are still in hierarchical roles, this creates a division in the body of Christ and exalts them.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They do not have hierarchical roles, for all believers are brethren (Matt. 23:8). There is a plurality of elders (Acts 14:23, 1 Tim. 5:17). The word "clergy" means "kleros", "a lot or an inheritance, heritage" as Peter used in 1 Peter 5:3. The word "laity" comes from the word "laos" meaning "the people". So believers are the heritage of God and the people of God. Christians are all a "priesthood of believers".


Institutional Religion after man

They have their leaders or priest who are required to wear special robes or suits.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They have no special clothes requirement, for elders or anyone.

 

[holo]

conservative Christians in their eyes are "intolerant, fundamentalist, self righteous bigots".

To the same degree that "liberals" to you are "antinomanists".

 

[Nadiine]

To the same degree that "liberals" to you are "antinomanists".

What is the definition of an antinomian? Anyone living with that ideology would be one, wouldn't they?

The BIBLE is very clear which sins are sin - for a conservative to embrace those direct teachings from Christ, Paul & John wouldn't be 'legalistic' would it?
IF it is, then so are Jesus, Paul & John who listed things out to specifically obey & define what sin is & isn't.

It boils down to, how much does one adhere to scripture or find it's absolute truth from God?

 

[linssue55]

Institutional Religion after man

They have a pre-planned program, with its, written out sermons, pre-planned songs and the whole order from beginning to end is planned.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They are led by the Spirit and have no programs or forms that quench the Spirit, (1 Cor .14:26-31, Jn 4:23,24, Rom. 12:7-8 (they wait).


Institutional Religion after man

They are registered with the Government and so get certain benefits such as tax breaks, etc. They must be regulated by the government standards, even if these cause them to go contrary to the freedoms in the scripture.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They are not registered with the government and an autonomous body under Christ's headship. They do not join hands with the world (Isiaih 30:1-5, 31:1-3). They will not compromise God's plan for financial gain.

 

[linssue55]

Institutional Religion after man

They often put believers into huge debts to pay off the building projects, ministry work, and private visions. Multiple millions of dollars are owed at times.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They do not charge for ministry or burden the body with unwise stewardship of their money. They seek to "owe no man anything" (Rom. 13:8), in connection to the body of saints.


Institutional Religion after man

They have an altar, which stems from O.T. and Roman Catholisicm and then came into Protestantism, and into most evangelistic type gatherings.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They have no altars except a spiritual altar (Heb. 13:10) and there is no more sacrifices outward therefore no need of an altar. They meet in homes, so they have no need for altars.


Institutional Religion after man

They often have a tithing system to support ministers and the building projects etc. People are often put under the O.T. curse for not tithing. As in other things, they fail to see the new wine and wineskins and follow the old. They erroneously use verses like Malchi 3:10 to justify their tithing system.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They see tithing as an O.T. ordinance for the Levites (Heb. 7:5) O.T. tithing had many meticulous aspects, such as giving a tenth of the tithe as a heave offering to the high priest (Num. 18:26-28). Tithing is not for today. Instead believers should give freely as God has blessed them and not of necessity (2 Cor. 9:7) but the tithe was of necessity and constraint.


Institutional Religion after man

They make a name for themselves, and have denominations. This creates division in the body of Christ at large.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They come in the name of the Lord and do not follow carnal name making as the Babel builders do (1 Cor. 1 :12-13, 1 Cor 3:3, Genesis 11:3-5).

 

[holo]

What is the definition of an antinomian? Anyone living with that ideology would be one, wouldn't they?

I can agree to being an antinomanist if you agree to being a legalist.

The BIBLE is very clear which sins are sin

No, it's not, and it's not supposed to be a dictionary of sins either. You're supposed to walk in righteousness and holiness by training up your senses by using them, and by having a continous fellowship with the Lord.

Is the bible clear that long hair on men is sin or not?

for a conservative to embrace those direct teachings from Christ, Paul & John wouldn't be 'legalistic' would it?

"This is sin" or "this is not sin" isn't a teaching. But that's the problem - you're so preoccupied with sin and morality that everything you see, even the bible itself, seems to have to do with morality. A lot of conservative christians can't even read a book without determining it's moral value (and tell others). Their whole lives center around sin in one way or another. But we're not to be focused on sin and morality, but rather on Christ.

It boils down to, how much does one adhere to scripture or find it's absolute truth from God?

No, it boils down to how you interpret it. What sort of eyes you read it with. If your starting point is morality, the bible will look like a book about morality.

 

[SteelDisciple]

Liberal "christians" are a big reason for the decline.

As for the poster who said that the Bible is how you interrupt it. He's wrong. Dead wrong. And does NOT speak from the Spirit.

 

[Nadiine]

Liberal "christians" are a big reason for the decline.

As for the poster who said that the Bible is how you interrupt it. He's wrong. Dead wrong. And does NOT speak from the Spirit.

and the many pastors in the pulpits WITHOUT THE SPIRIT are another reason for decline.

One important note, if you notice the UK, you'll see that as Liberalism took root, church attendance declined - see any correlations???

 

[seekthetruth909]

Institutional Religion after man

They make the role of "The Pastor" preeminent which renders the other ministries submissive to him. They also have distinctions such as "Senior pastor" or "Senior Elder". The elders are often at the supportive arm of the one- man called, "The Pastor".

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They have a plurality of elders (Acts 14:23) and gift -ings such as apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher (Ephesians 4:11). They make no hierarchical
role of these giftings. They have no distinctions in roles and position between elders and the pastor. (Acts 20:17, 28 and 1 Peter 5:1).


Institutional Religion after man

They have a pastor who acts as the head and is even called, head pastor in some gatherings. He must perform continaully for all. And many look to him alone for spiritual direction.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They have no head but Christ and he is to be preeminent in all things
(Col. 1:18). They warn against following men like Diotrephes, who loved to have the preeminence, (3rd John 9, 12 Cor. 11:20).


Institutional Religion after man

They have a pre-planned program, with its, written out sermons, pre-planned songs and the whole order from beginning to end is planned.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They are led by the Spirit and have no programs or forms that quench the Spirit, (1 Cor .14:26-31, Jn 4:23,24, Rom. 12:7-8 (they wait).


Institutional Religion after man

They have ministry in the gatherings, which is dominated by a pastor and a few others. It basically is a one-man show. No one is allowed to speak unless they have the approval of the pastor. Even if certain assemblies say that they allow freedom, it is rarely if ever, totally free on a Sunday morning.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

"Every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love" (Eph, 4:16). And all can use their gifts, and minister to edify one another (1 Cor 12, 14:24-38, Rom. 12:1-8 1 Thess 5:11, 1 Peter 4:11,12, Col. 3:15,16).


Institutional Religion after man

They create a dysfunctional family by allowing the saints little or no interaction within the programmed, religious form when they gather. This creates a disunity of the body of Christ. A family type environment is not nurtured, but rather a cold organizational form.
They have special titles for those who are great among them such as "Reverend", "Master of Divinity", "Teacher", "Professor" or "The Pastor". Some are even called "President" and "CEO" which is similar to the Gentile rule.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They have body life and care for one another when gathered (Col. 3:16, 1 Cor 12:25). A functional family environment is nurtured and not quenched by the large structures or a one-man show that cut off interaction and hinder mutual, body ministry under Christ headship.
They have no special titles. They follow Jesus' warning not to give titles to Christians, for they are all brethren (Matt. 23:8-12). God deals with those who exalt themselves (Matt. 23:12) and removes those who use flattering titles (Job 32:21,22).


Institutional Religion after man

They have the Lords supper as a small snack. (Yet the word "supper" means, "feast, dinner, the chief meal")

Biblical Christianity after Christ

The Lord's supper is a full meal, with the bread and the cup as part of the meal (Mark 14:22, Matthew 26:26).


Institutional Religion after man

They have professional salaried ministers. Usually the one man getting paid is the Pastor. Generally he comes before other elders and the poor in the assembly and he is guaranteed a salary, whereas the other elders and the poor may not be guaranteed any help.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They have no salaried ministers among the regular gatherings but rather the elders work with their own hands and are in a position to give (Acts 20:33-35). They support itinerant apostolic and evangelistic workers (1 Cor 9:2-18), and they support the poor and widows if needed.


Institutional Religion after man

They are registered with the Government and so get certain benefits such as tax breaks, etc. They must be regulated by the government standards, even if these cause them to go contrary to the freedoms in the scripture.

Biblical Christianity after Christ

They are not registered with the government and an autonomous body under Christ's headship. They do not join hands with the world (Isiaih 30:1-5, 31:1-3). They will not compromise God's plan for financial gain.

(cont)

You have made some excellent points! The elders are suppose to lead the church not the pastor. In the New Testament the term , “pastor” is only mentioned once along with apostle, prophet, evangelist, and teacher, so why has the pastor position become so predominant in the modern church?

God Bless

 

[seekthetruth909]

and the many pastors in the pulpits WITHOUT THE SPIRIT are another reason for decline.

One important note, if you notice the UK, you'll see that as Liberalism took root, church attendance declined - see any correlations???

But is church attendance really an accurate indication of who is walking in the Spirit with Christ?

God Bless

 

[Nadiine]

But is church attendance really an accurate indication of who is walking in the Spirit with Christ?

God Bless

Well, I didn't say that it was... but I believe people who refuse to assemble together as believers are at the very least in a semi-state of rebellion.

As I always mention, Temple worship & NT group meetings at homes, etc. were the standard practice and EXAMPLED FOR US by the NT believers.
They corporately met. Heb. 10 tells us to meet together (corporately) in some fashion & that some didn't meet. It was contrasting those who didn't with the exhortation to meet.

I also like to ask, if Christians aren't gathering to worship, where are they taking communion? Where are they being baptised at when they convert?

I wouldn't say that one HAS to go to church to be 'walking in the Spirit', but it's very possible that there's a spiritual issue going on if they refuse or have no desire whatsoever to be with others of their family & fellowship in the Lord together & be under spiritual authority where we have some accountability.
(analogy of the sheep that's all alone - are more apt to be easy pickings for wolves).
I let God sort that out.

I only made my initial statement in reply to the previous post which I misread. I read "pastor" instead of "poster" lol. shhhhhhh, don't tell anybody.

 

[holo]

Don't forget that your local congregation may not have a name, a definition, a building or a leader

 

[Always in His Presence]

Hmm.... no name, no definition, no building, no leader, and yet it is a congregation....

We have several churches in our area that are exploding.

One has about 12,000 members in their congregation. They have 70 or so bus routes that reach out to people on a weekly basis, see thousands make decisions for Christ yearly. They are one of the most active churches in reaching our city and sending missionaries.

I guess their only mistake is that they have a leader, a definition, a building and a name that's known all over the city and world.

Yes, I'm being snide. Sorry.