More and more churches exploding?

[midnightbirdgirl]

Matthew 22:14 14For many are called, but few are chosen.


Also, remember many mainline denominations are trying to appeal to the masses, in so doing they are abandoning the Word, making God in their image as opposed to remaining in His. The Church is the Body of Christ, and being a Christian has little to do with attending Service especially considering many churches are

apostate, it is often hard to find a church that follows the Word, with that it is often better to home church than participate in heresy.
​

 

[Nadiine]

Matthew 22:14 14For many are called, but few are chosen.





Also, remember many mainline denominations are trying to appeal to the masses, in so doing they are abandoning the Word, making God in their image as opposed to remaining in His. The Church is the Body of Christ, and being a Christian has little to do with attending Service especially considering many churches are

apostate, it is often hard to find a church that follows the Word, with that it is often better to home church than participate in heresy.​

It's hard to pinpoint which denoms are the problem - I've been in non denoms that are preaching for the masses.
IMO it's hard to find a church that follows the Bible when the new trend of Christians are disagreeing with the bible & claiming it's not from God at all.
In fact, here's the link to New_Wineskins post claiming that very thing: The bible isn't even important:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=29875696&postcount=200

Here's another peculiar accusation against people who accept the bible as truth in its entirety:
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=29859015&postcount=196

Here's a nice one against conservative Christians Originally Posted by New_Wineskin
And , how did it become legal ? Thanks to a lot of criminal activity . There was so much criminal activity that they had to repeal the law . How did the law come into effect in the first place ? A lot of conservative christians abusing the laws of the land to push their agendas so that things are illegal and they can push the "laws of the land" laws they think are in the Scriptures .

Your drinking is only legal because of criminal activity - criminal activity that happened because the addiction was too much for conservative christians to fight . So , they gave up and their current versions now push to keep other things illegal while imbibing in things that their predecessors were pushing to keep illegal .


Somehow, everything seems to be Conservative Christians' faults

I'd think if conservative Christians are so horrible, the bible writers must be too - we're basically only abiding by what's written for us there.

 

[holo]

Once again I have to ask, WHO IS THE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN?

This level of vitriol on Christians painted in such broad brush strokes is just unwarrented & downright offensive to me.

Where's the love of GOD for the brethren around here?
John tells us that love of the brethren is a sign of the true believer.

True, true. But accusing fundamentalists or liberals is basically the same thing, isn't it?

 

[Starcrystal]

If you consider people who call Christians to live a holy life, pleasing to God, "legalistic", then i disagree w/ you.
Quite the contrary though - MOST Christians I know complain that the Christian leaders AREN'T preaching enough about obedience to God, sin & hell.
Just the opposite of your observation here.... hmmm

LEGALISTS are those who promote the OT TORAH as either the means to salvation (works based law), OR demand we adhere to the entire OT. Torah in all aspects that are applicable today.

To call people to adhere to obedience as the Bible calls us to obey God's moral commands, is NOT legalism.

Amazing how liberal theology adherants RUN to assume the church is "falling apart" becuz of [their definition of] "legalists" - people who take the Lord & His word SERIOUS, to keep it and live holy lives.

I guess it's all in the definitions isn't it

I would consider "legalists" people who have a whole bunch of "holy" rules the church needs to follow, and while it sounds like OT law, it is really NT "law" created by men.
Examples (And I've been to a few such churches):

If you wear any jewelry or makeup you have the spirit of Jezebel and are not completely right with God.

If you watch or even own a TV set you have an unclean house. The TV set itself was called a "babylonian idiot box" by one pastor I knew. their church taught there should not even be a TV set in any Christians home.

If women wear pants they are in sin. I read one tract put out by a baptist church that said women wearing pants was the mark of the beast!

If women cut or even trim their hair it is sin. If men have long hair it is sin. I knew one lady minister who literally lost her licence because she sent in a new photo for her ID that showed she had trimmed her bangs!

You have no excuse not to attend services 6 - 7 days a week. Unless you are working a job then you should be here. (I attended such a non denom for a few months... they also taught the no TV and jewelry thing).

Your children MUST be either home schooled or attend the churches Christian school. Sending your kid to public school was conforming to the world and sin. This was practiced by the same baptist church with the pants & hair doctrine. Interestingly they made money on their Christian school.... hmmmm. (Ok, I know public schools ARE bad, but to say it's sin to let your kids go there means a whole lot of Christians are in sin, which brings me to the next point.)

If you attend any church where they allow violations of any of the above you are in sin. You are comprimizing. You need to come out from among them and be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing....

That's legalism today.

According to those churches the church I attend now is in sin. Even though they preach repentance, and pretty conservative, speak out against homosexuality, abortion, drunkeness, drugs, immorality, cussing, etc, they lift up Jesus, they see lives changed fairly regularly....they must be in sin because 2 or 3 male members have long hair including one music minister. The pastors wife has short hair and wears pants and jewlry... and the pastor and most members of the congregation own TV sets.... even though they preach about the evils of TV programming and are very selective in what they watch they are still in sin just for owning the TV, that is, according to the legalistic churches mentioned previously.

As for the OP. I know of one methodist church in Alaska that sat abandoned for some time. Finally it was purchased by Rainbow Foods, which is kind of a health food, hippie, new age type place. (Good food though...) So the former church ended up not even being a church at all.

 

[holo]

Legalism means to live by rules, quite simply.

 

[Nadiine]

I would consider "legalists" people who have a whole bunch of "holy" rules the church needs to follow, and while it sounds like OT law, it is really NT "law" created by men.
Examples (And I've been to a few such churches):

If you wear any jewelry or makeup you have the spirit of Jezebel and are not completely right with God.

If you watch or even own a TV set you have an unclean house. The TV set itself was called a "babylonian idiot box" by one pastor I knew. their church taught there should not even be a TV set in any Christians home.

If women wear pants they are in sin. I read one tract put out by a baptist church that said women wearing pants was the mark of the beast!

If women cut or even trim their hair it is sin. If men have long hair it is sin. I knew one lady minister who literally lost her licence because she sent in a new photo for her ID that showed she had trimmed her bangs!

I agree with your above assessment - what you describe is exactly what the Pharisees of Jesus' day were doing to the people with the rules & regulations they tacked on to the Law.
& now you see why Jesus was infuriated at them. He called them "sons of hell".

Their legalism stumbled people from coming to God.

HOWEVER, the legalists being attacked by those of the liberal theology, aren't ONLY those types; most include ALL conservative Christians as 'legalistic' because we uphold the Bible as God's word of [absolute] truth and preach against sin which the bible clearly specifies to do.

We're called to give the WHOLE counsel of God, not bits of pieces that we like most & keep us comfy. (keeping us from growth).

Jesus calls us to take up our cross (DIE TO SELF) and follow Him; if that's an ungodly message, then we must be following a different Shepherd.

It's THIS balanced message that is being attacked lately. As if any mention of condemnation or sin or holiness are out of place.

 

[Nadiine]

True, true. But accusing fundamentalists or liberals is basically the same thing, isn't it?

Contending with spiritual issues and rude, vitriolic attacks aren't quite the same thing in my opinion.
And certainly when they seem to be the majority of your focus - it becomes an assault/crusade against others and stops being about issues, but turns very personal.
Personal attacks, stereotyping, constant pointing and blaming, airing wrongdoings, etc. (there almost seems to be a JOY in pointing out shortcomings or failures)...

Even one post I pasted that blamed conservative Christians for the legalization of Pot and for legal alcohol!!! Might as well blame us for the hurricanes that swept thru Florida & if your store runs out of paper towels.

There is a way to refute false teachings and then there's hateful rhetoric. No doubt there's a fine line with it, but I think it exposes itself eventually. You can see the critical, hostile spirit behind it.

 

[holo]

HOWEVER, the legalists being attacked by those of the liberal theology, aren't ONLY those types; most include ALL conservative Christians as 'legalistic' because we uphold the Bible as God's word of [absolute] truth and preach against sin which the bible clearly specifies to do.

It's true that I, for one, view the vast majority of conservative christians as legalists. It's not like I'm calling them sinners or false teachers or anything. They're just legalists, it's quite common. Pretty much everyone is a legalist. I can even become legalistic about my own understandig of NOT being under law. Legalism is to live by rules. My opinion is that we're not to live according to any more rules than Adam and Eve did.

Jesus calls us to take up our cross (DIE TO SELF) and follow Him; if that's an ungodly message, then we must be following a different Shepherd.

No, but you and I, for example, have different understanding of what it means to die to oneself. To me, it's pretty much the opposite to what you believe. Dying means to stop trying. Trying to do something for God just won't cut it, even if it means you're "dying" to, say, alcohol or whatever. I think it's very religious and fleshy and worldly and futile and ultimately legalistic to lay all sorts of rules and boundaries on oneself in order to please the Lord.

So it's not like anyone is promoting NOT denying oneself. There's just another way of doing it.

Contending with spiritual issues and rude, vitriolic attacks aren't quite the same thing in my opinion.
And certainly when they seem to be the majority of your focus - it becomes an assault/crusade against others and stops being about issues, but turns very personal.
Personal attacks, stereotyping, constant pointing and blaming, airing wrongdoings, etc. (there almost seems to be a JOY in pointing out shortcomings or failures)...

I can understand that, especially if you strongly identify yourself with "conservative christians" and the like. But it feels exactly the same for me and many others, every time someone hears an argument or an opinion and go "yeah, just what I expected from a liberal/bible denier/antinomanist/whatever".

 

[Nadiine]

It's true that I, for one, view the vast majority of conservative christians as legalists. It's not like I'm calling them sinners or false teachers or anything. They're just legalists, it's quite common. Pretty much everyone is a legalist. I can even become legalistic about my own understandig of NOT being under law. Legalism is to live by rules. My opinion is that we're not to live according to any more rules than Adam and Eve did.

No, but you and I, for example, have different understanding of what it means to die to oneself. To me, it's pretty much the opposite to what you believe. Dying means to stop trying. Trying to do something for God just won't cut it, even if it means you're "dying" to, say, alcohol or whatever. I think it's very religious and fleshy and worldly and futile and ultimately legalistic to lay all sorts of rules and boundaries on oneself in order to please the Lord.

So it's not like anyone is promoting NOT denying oneself. There's just another way of doing it.

I can understand that, especially if you strongly identify yourself with "conservative christians" and the like. But it feels exactly the same for me and many others, every time someone hears an argument or an opinion and go "yeah, just what I expected from a liberal/bible denier/antinomanist/whatever".

I don't personally care that people attack my beliefs - I expect it as a believer who's serious about the Lord.
They attacked Christ, so why should I expect any less?

It boils down to scripture imo. Conservatives like myself take it as God's absolute truth to man - directly inspired by God, and HIS word to us to abide by.

Many other liberals do not view it that way; but the subjective interpretations instead.
(of which I ALWAYS REPLY - IF THE BIBLE IS UP TO SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION, WHY DO YOU FIGHT ME WHEN I CLAIM IT IS TRUE THIS WAY?).

THEY are not to impose THEIR belief of subjectivity of scripture ONTO OTHERS - doing so means they believe it's absolutely TRUE in the subjective way; which is self contradiction of subjectivity.

IF it can be interpreted ANY WAY by ANY BODY... then they MUST leave us conservatives alone in our views & interpretations.

We get "DYING" to self to mean continue working to keep from sin, becuz the REST of the scriptures lend themselves to this method.

Look up the meaning of Nirvana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana

Your view actually seems to reflect the Buddhist view of 'purification' (if I'm understanding you correctly)?

 

[midnightbirdgirl]

It's hard to pinpoint which denoms are the problem - I've been in non denoms that are preaching for the masses.
IMO it's hard to find a church that follows the Bible when the new trend of Christians are disagreeing with the bible & claiming it's not from God at all.
In fact, here's the link to New_Wineskins post claiming that very thing: The bible isn't even important:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=29875696&postcount=200

Here's another peculiar accusation against people who accept the bible as truth in its entirety:
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=29859015&postcount=196

Here's a nice one against conservative Christians before a Reedit:
Originally Posted by New_Wineskin
And , how did it become legal ? Thanks to a lot of criminal activity . There was so much criminal activity that they had to repeal the law . How did the law come into effect in the first place ? A lot of *(*&%@#$ conservative christians abusing the laws of the land to push their agendas so that things are illegal and they can push the "laws of the land" laws they think are in the Scriptures .

Your drinking is only legal because of criminal activity - criminal activity that happened because the addiction was too much for conservative christians to fight . So , they gave up and their current versions now push to keep other things illegal while imbibing in things that their predecessors were pushing to keep illegal .

Somehow, everything seems to be Conservative Christians' faults

I'd think if conservative Christians are so horrible, the bible writers must be too - we're basically only abiding by what's written for us there.

You have to first decide who is the final authority, I believe that is His Word. If you cannot reconcile what is being taught with the Word, then the church is apostate. We will see more and more of this until the end, and it will get more and more difficult to decipher who is a Child of God and a child of the devil.
http://www.christianforums.com/rules
MBG

 

[Nadiine]

You have to first decide who is the final authority, I believe that is His Word. If you cannot reconcile what is being taught with the Word, then the church is apostate. We will see more and more of this until the end, and it will get more and more difficult to decipher who is a Child of God and a child of the devil.
http://p105.ezboard.com/bfinalauthority48270
MBG

I agree with you! With all the misteachings and as we veer further and further away from the orthodox teachings held by the Earliest churches, I can see how & why so many are becoming confused & misled into error.

The more I read here, the more obvious that fact is becoming. No wonder Jesus said that at the time of the end, MANY WOULD BE DECIEVED AND DECIEVE OTHERS.
And more false teachers would abound....

scary times, but here they are

 

[ivory]

I agree with you! With all the misteachings and as we veer further and further away from the orthodox teachings held by the Earliest churches, I can see how & why so many are becoming confused & misled into error.

The more I read here, the more obvious that fact is becoming. No wonder Jesus said that at the time of the end, MANY WOULD BE DECIEVED AND DECIEVE OTHERS.
And more false teachers would abound....

scary times, but here they are

"MANY WOULD BE DECIEVED AND DECIEVE"

Stay in God's Word, learn it, study it, meditate on it and you won't be decieved.

Ivory

 

[holo]

I don't personally care that people attack my beliefs - I expect it as a believer who's serious about the Lord.
They attacked Christ, so why should I expect any less?

That makes two of us

It boils down to scripture imo. Conservatives like myself take it as God's absolute truth to man - directly inspired by God, and HIS word to us to abide by.

Even though I don't agree that (my interpretation of a translation of a version of) the bible is dictated by God), you don't agree with all the other conservatives anyway, do you? So even if you view the bible in the same manner, that doesn't make you agree on what's true.

We all (everybody on CF at least) believe that the bible is not only true, but also largely clear. But we still disagree. What's really sad is that so many of us seem unable to blame it on different understandings and viewpoints instead of heresy.

Many other liberals do not view it that way; but the subjective interpretations instead.
(of which I ALWAYS REPLY - IF THE BIBLE IS UP TO SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION, WHY DO YOU FIGHT ME WHEN I CLAIM IT IS TRUE THIS WAY?).

Our understanding is always subjective. It can never be truly objective. That doesn't mean truth changes, though. It just means that even Nadiine may actually be wrong about something.

Perhaps you've mistaken me for a relativist?

We get "DYING" to self to mean continue working to keep from sin, becuz the REST of the scriptures lend themselves to this method.

On the contrary, I believe you misunderstand a lot of scripture because your premise is faulty. If your premise is that you're righteous as opposed to a sinner, you will find that the rest of scripture actually builds up under that, and it becomes apparent that we have already been crucified with Him.

Your view actually seems to reflect the Buddhist view of 'purification' (if I'm understanding you correctly)?

Honestly, I wouldn't know. I've never had anything to do with Buddhism in my life. I'll check out the link though.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

If the OP is still interested . . .
I have seen similar things happen in my area. However for every church that has closed its doors or dropped drasticallly in size there have been new churches opening. The believers are moving wth Jesus as he moves if a church is not going to adhere to following Christ then those who do with move with Christ in order to follow. Why should they stay where He is not? It has been my expeerience that there is a movement away from the traditional american model of doing church and moving toward following the example of the church guidlines set in Acts. Just somethings to ponder.

 

[Nadiine]

That makes two of us

Even though I don't agree that (my interpretation of a translation of a version of) the bible is dictated by God), you don't agree with all the other conservatives anyway, do you? So even if you view the bible in the same manner, that doesn't make you agree on what's true.

We all (everybody on CF at least) believe that the bible is not only true, but also largely clear. But we still disagree. What's really sad is that so many of us seem unable to blame it on different understandings and viewpoints instead of heresy.

Our understanding is always subjective. It can never be truly objective. That doesn't mean truth changes, though. It just means that even Nadiine may actually be wrong about something.

Perhaps you've mistaken me for a relativist?

On the contrary, I believe you misunderstand a lot of scripture because your premise is faulty. If your premise is that you're righteous as opposed to a sinner, you will find that the rest of scripture actually builds up under that, and it becomes apparent that we have already been crucified with Him.

Honestly, I wouldn't know. I've never had anything to do with Buddhism in my life. I'll check out the link though.

There are so many offshoots of liberalism, that I haven't actually 'painted you' as anything in particular... I only go by conversations I've had with many of them personally.

As I say about my place in Christ, I know who I am as His child, but it doesn't remove the relation between a holy & pure God & human that falls far short.
I know my place and so did the Bible greats who were much 'holier' than I'll ever be.
I don't seek self esteem, knowing what He's done for me when I don't deserve it is all the esteem I need from God. GRACE & MERCY.

 

[Always in His Presence]

WOW! the more I read, the more I rejoice that God has done such marvelous works in the cicites I've lived in.

I've never been part of a church that didn't explode - grow and reach the community.

I am also glad I have my Pastor a man of integrity and honor.

 

[seekthetruth909]

All around me are churches that are losing membership quite rapidly. There was a good 300-400 person methodist church about 20 miles away that had a huge problem with the pastor (she was somewhat liberal), so 80 percent of the congregation left that church. So, they just shut the doors and sold the building. Another nearby methodist church took up the remaining members.

About 50 miles away is another methodist church that had a recent problem as well. The pastor not only was openly gay, but started to launder money from the church. Needless to say, membership cut in half, and the church is very close to closing its doors as well.

20 miles from there, another church's pastor openly confessed one morning that he was commiting adultery with one of the ladies on the church staff (I have friends that go to this church). He said that he can no longer preach, so he dismissed himself and saught help from other sources, while a new pastor was appointed. Needless to say, membership there dropped as well.

10 miles down the road from that church - a place that started with about 15 people in the congregation meeting each sunday on a ranch. Soon after, the ranch went bankrupt, but the church received huge donations and was able to slowly build a new building on some land. Attendance grew (including my friends). I went as well, but had to leave to go to college. After graduation, I found the church to be big, but seemed to alienate a large crowd, primarily the older people. So, the older people began to leave. A few months later, two people on the financial staff were caught having an affair. Membership dropped because of this. From what I understand, it is still doing so.

One county away, another church is having declining population as well. The church started out strong, membership grew to about 100 or so. At about that point, the pastor was caught mingling in church finances. He was let go, and about half the church followed. What was left of the congregation found a pastor that could lead for a few months while a new permanent one was found. The new pastor came. About 2 years later, major changes came. Those that sang, played instruments or were in the small choir were asked to no longer sing/play. Those that had started the church (elders) were replaced as leaders by the new pastor. Those that headed up the staff (the various ministries such as accounting/finance, sound/media, and outreach were shutdown or replaced with new people). Once again, this same church began to experience a big drop in membership.

I have friends and/or family that all at one time gone to these churches. It is very disturbing to hear these stories from them. Has anyone else seen a trend like this before?

A church my church is affiliated with had its pastor arrested recently during service for stealing $100,000 from the church. A friend asked me to find the newspaper article about the incident. I did an internet search, “pastor arrested” and I was astonished to find close to a 100 articles of various pastors being arrested in the U.S.A for everything from murder and rape to theft of church finances. Why is this happening?

God Bless

 

[seekthetruth909]

Yes, I think you mean imploding, not exploding.
I had problems in the church I pastored and resigned last March. It was the best decision I ever made. I have never regretted it.
Another church about 5 miles away had some former trustees lock the doors of the church. For a while, some members met in the parking lot of the church to have church. They put ads in the local paper asking the former trustees to respect the decisions of the church body and to remove the locks, but to my knowledge they never did. The church started then meeting elsewhere.
Part of what is happening is that people no longer know how to get along with others. We have become a more selfish people and if we don't get our ears tickled we go elsewhere or start a fight. The love of others in the church has died down and we no longer feel ashamed that we can't seem to get along with each other. It is one of the sign that the end is near and that Jesus will be back soon I believe.
J

I think you have an excellent revelation on the situation. The bible says in the last days people will become lovers of themselves.

God Bless

 

[Always in His Presence]

I think there is good and bad in every situation because we are all human. Why concentrate on onle the bad?

 

[ConfusedSometimes]

Let me also say that this may be happening in my church as well. I can just somewhat see a sign of it.
But I always pondered what would I do if something like this happened in my church. I suppose I could leave, but then I am on the search for a new one. That was hard enough when I first moved to this area. So, when I hear someone tell me that they dont go to church because they dont feel they to in order to follow Christ..