More and more churches exploding?

[holo]

Of course, having leaders or buildings isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But there are lot of believers in clubs and on the streets, people who in now way fit into church as we know it. They (we) aren't organized, we just believe in the same Lord. There are advantages to it. For example, you'll sometimes see that when a pastor falls, the entire church falls with him. That can't happen to us. And us being believers is more tightly tied to our everyday lives than going to services and meetings.

 

[Nadiine]

Of course, having leaders or buildings isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But there are lot of believers in clubs and on the streets, people who in now way fit into church as we know it. They (we) aren't organized, we just believe in the same Lord. There are advantages to it. For example, you'll sometimes see that when a pastor falls, the entire church falls with him. That can't happen to us. And us being believers is more tightly tied to our everyday lives than going to services and meetings.

The question is, where are THEY getting fed? As I keep saying, if God hadn't established & exampled corporate worship in both testaments, I'd be the first one to say, "stay home folks". But nothing in the bible is without purpose or reason.
& 1 Cor. 12-14 along w/ 1 Timothy shows us that corporate church assembly (& leadership in it) should be "organized".

But let's use your reasoning - that it's a benefit to be more of a "lone ranger" in Christiandom than tied to any certain 'established/organized church'...

If so, then why isn't it also a 'benefit' when church members scatter after their Pastor takes a fall? Each to their own new place.
Your post seems to bring a negative connotation as 'damage' that's done to those who scatter after a church crisis - yet claim it's 'healthy' not to be tied to an established congregation.

Maybe I'm missing something in your point.

 

[holo]

The question is, where are THEY getting fed?

We feed each other.

As I keep saying, if God hadn't established & exampled corporate worship in both testaments, I'd be the first one to say, "stay home folks". But nothing in the bible is without purpose or reason.

That may be true, but it doesn't follow that christians in my city do it like God wants.

But let's use your reasoning - that it's a benefit to be more of a "lone ranger" in Christiandom than tied to any certain 'established/organized church'...

I'm not saying that it's necessarily better, only that it has advantages, just like being a member of an official, organized church has its advantages. Our ("un-churched" people) advantage is that we're connected on a deep and real level. It's just not that we happen to be members of the same church. A disadvantage is that it's hard to organize charities, for example.

But all in all, I really don't see what I'm missing out on not being a member of a church or going to one regularly.

If so, then why isn't it also a 'benefit' when church members scatter after their Pastor takes a fall? Each to their own new place.
Your post seems to bring a negative connotation as 'damage' that's done to those who scatter after a church crisis - yet claim it's 'healthy' not to be tied to an established congregation.

Maybe I'm missing something in your point.

It's not good that a church dissolves or that people go from place to place. If people like it in church, I hope they'll continue going there. But I think that it's a problem if the entire church goes boom just because the pastor does something stupid. It's not the pastor who is supposed to hold people together, it's love and a sense of unity IMO.

 

[linssue55]

so why has the pastor position become so predominant in the modern church?

God Bless

He IS the one in authority of the local church.....his congregation.


The purpose of the pastor-teacher — Ephesians 4:12,13. “For the purpose of training and equipping the saints for combat” — the first objective is preparing the royal family for the angelic conflict. This is accomplished by teaching — “for the purpose of the vocation of the ministry” — with Bible doctrine as the inner dictator of the believer’s soul, with an altar of the soul established, the believer on the basis of that doctrine can find his area of ministry — for the purpose of the edification of the body of Christ, until we all [members of the royal family] have attained the goal [spiritual maturity; supergrace] because of the consistency of doctrine, and e)pignwsij of the Son of God” — no one ever loves Jesus Christ until they know Him, and you must have e)pignwsij of the Son of God before you can be occupied with the person of Christ — “with reference to a mature nobleman” — it is the objective of the pastor-teacher through the teaching of the Word to bring each one of his congregation to the point of being a mature nobleman — “to the standard of maturity which belongs to the fullness of Christ.” In other words, there is a standard that can only be achieved by maximum doctrine in the soul. The pastor is the communicator.


The function of the pastor-teacher — Ephesians 4:20,21, “But you [members of the royal family of God] have not been taught this manner in Christ, inasmuch as you have begun to hear him, and have been taught by him, since doctrine is in the Jesus.”


The teaching of the Word of God therefore fulfills the principle of giving us the minds in Christ. With that in mind we have certain words, such as didaskw. It is always used of one person teaching a group, in a group. No one-on-one. The public assembly of the local church is the classroom in this dispensation. Note: There is no spiritual growth outside of the local church. Part of spiritual growth is the academic authority, and this is why no one ever grows up in any service organization. No one is going to grow up apart from a local church. The pastor is the only communicator in the local church. The public assembly of the local church is designed by God to provide privacy for each member of the royal family. That is why it is set up this way. The local church may fail here but the principle of the local church is privacy. Privacy is the only way to learn. The only time that it becomes necessary not to give people their privacy is when they are troublemakers. Always a pastor must know his troublemakers. He must communicate [monologue] to a group. Personal time with members of the congregation is an intrusion upon the freedom and privacy of the priesthood and it results in pastoral dictatorship through personal coercion, bullying, overpowering salesmanship, and it violates the right of the royal priesthood to live his own life as unto the Lord. Notice two things that are missing. A pastor is not promoter and he is not a counselor. There is a legitimate place for counseling but he is definitely never a promoter and he does minimal counseling. Through the learning of doctrine, doctrine replaces the need for counseling, for the word equips us to handle our own problems.


The appointment of the pastor-teacher. The pastor is appointed at the point of salvation, and only males. No one at the point of salvation is aware of it. The individual becomes aware of it as a result of spiritual growth. It is the function of the Holy Spirit to decide who gets the gift. The gift is bestowed on the basis of God the Holy Spirit determining how many people are going to be positive in any generation, where and how, and under what circumstances.


The principle of right pastor/right congregation is found in 1 Peter 5:2.



The concept of the pastor as the total product of grace is found in 1 Corinthians 15:10. Paul makes it very clear that it is a grace type of labor. Ephesians 3:7 Every pastor owes his ministry to the omnipotence of God, and that only. 1 Timothy 1:12-16 — the only thing that grace can use is a plodder: “faithful.” Spiritual growth is based upon consistent teaching, day in and day out. day in and day out, day in and day out.


There are many passages on the pastor: Ephesians 3:7-10; Colossians 1:23-29; 1 Timothy 2:24-26; 3:1-9; Titus 1:6-9.


The authority and concept of the pastor — Hebrews 13:7,17.



The reward of the pastor — Hebrews 6:10; 1 Peter 5:4. The wreath of glory is the exclusive decoration in eternity for the pastor-teacher. Remember that the reason for this particular award is faithfulness in studying and teaching. The soul is the battlefield in the angelic conflict, and if you are faithful in studying and teaching this issue will become clear. Doctrine was here before we came; doctrine will be here after we are gone. Evil was here before we came; evil will be here after we are gone. The issue with every member of the congregation, as well as the pastor: Are you influenced by doctrine? Are you influenced by evil? Notice that sin is not an issue. Sin was solved at the cross; sin is handled by rebound Confession 1 John 1:9) . The issue is doctrine versus evil. Doctrine is the manifestation of the genius of God; evil is the manifestation of the genius of Satan. David was influenced by doctrine and blessed; Saul was influenced by evil and cursed. Verse 12a: “faithful minister” — pistoj diakonoj.


Faithfulness
1. God requires faithfulness from all believers — Matthew 25:21.
2. Much more so does God require faithfulness from pastor-teachers, ministers.
3. God does not ask the pastor to be sensational, spectacular, scintillating, but faithful.
4. The key to being a pastor is found in one word: plugging. The pastor-teacher must keep right on studying and teaching.
5. Pastors must be consistent and faithful to the assigned task of the ministry which is the communication of Bible doctrine to his congregation.
6. Every time a pastor stops for counseling he is depriving his entire congregation of Bible doctrine.
7. The self-centered, egotistical, haughty, insolent, supercilious member of the congregation who demands attention should get it — on his butt!
8. It is imperative that a pastor should avoid being sidetracked by the psychopathic, imbecilic, self-centered people who demand attention. When it comes to studying the Bible or teaching the Word of God the pastor must become a plodder.


“Epaphras who is one of you” — o( e)c u(mwn. We have e)k plus the ablative plural of the personal pronoun su. In the Greek the definite article is used for the pastor, the communicator, and the definite article usually becomes a demonstrative pronoun. But when it comes to the congregation the Word of God is consistent. The congregation is always described in terms of a personal pronoun, a plural personal pronoun. Every member of the congregation is important to the Lord and members of the congregation are entrusted to an under-shepherd, the pastor-teacher. Therefore, always remember that the pastor who bullies, the pastor who confuses his congregation, the pastor who gets one-on-one and pushes them around, the pastor who is a tyrant and not a true pastor, this man will be disciplined double by the Lord. The Romans had seized Epaphras but Paul says he is “one of your number,” or “one from among you.”


“a servant of Christ” — douloj which is a bondslave. The pastor is the douloj of Jesus Christ.

 

[seekthetruth909]

Well, I didn't say that it was... but I believe people who refuse to assemble together as believers are at the very least in a semi-state of rebellion.

As I always mention, Temple worship & NT group meetings at homes, etc. were the standard practice and EXAMPLED FOR US by the NT believers.
They corporately met. Heb. 10 tells us to meet together (corporately) in some fashion & that some didn't meet. It was contrasting those who didn't with the exhortation to meet.

I also like to ask, if Christians aren't gathering to worship, where are they taking communion? Where are they being baptised at when they convert?

I wouldn't say that one HAS to go to church to be 'walking in the Spirit', but it's very possible that there's a spiritual issue going on if they refuse or have no desire whatsoever to be with others of their family & fellowship in the Lord together & be under spiritual authority where we have some accountability.
(analogy of the sheep that's all alone - are more apt to be easy pickings for wolves).
I let God sort that out.

I only made my initial statement in reply to the previous post which I misread. I read "pastor" instead of "poster" lol. shhhhhhh, don't tell anybody.

Sorry if I misunderstood you Nadine.
Some people refuse to join a church because they haven’t found one where they feel comfortable. I use to feel comfortable in church but the more I studied the bible the more dissatisfied I became with my church. Many modern day churches are far removed from the concept of the early church. But I do agree with you that we need to fellowship with other Christians. Without fellowship most of us backslide in our walk with Christ.

I have always felt more spiritual nourishment from small bible study groups than from a church. I believe that many of us become lost in a big conventional church and lose the intimacy of the early church, which had more interaction among individuals. This is probably the reason why Barna [Christian pollsters] predicts the decline of organized churches and the rise of house churches. The only drawback is the music. In some large churches the music is great! I guess my ideal for a church would be a number of affiliated small groups meeting every Sunday and getting together in a hall a few times a year for a larger worship. I know a house church in a city close to mine with 14 members. They take a free offering collection every week and since there are no salaries or overhead costs they can put all their money to good use. They recently sent two members to Africa for a month to help babies with AIDS and also bought some bibles to smuggle into China. By doing these works and supporting each other in life’s struggles I believe they are a much more effective church.

All this said I believe each of us should go where God leads us, whether it be a large conventional church or a small group/house church. In the end we need fellowship with other believers to strengthen our walk with Christ.

God Bless

 

[Nadiine]

I understand what you mean seek, I know there's plenty of people out there that haven't found a church they're happy with.
For some reason, we have no problem finding one when we move.

I've run into the same problem you have with being dissatisfied w/ the teaching at larger churches... it's like staying in Jr. High year after year.
I wonder if it's that they think people can't handle deeper teaching? Or the people dont WANT deeper teaching?

Josh McDowell wrote a book "The Last Christian Generation" and he's confirmed what you've mentioned about the generations of Christians & how it's gotten lately.
Everything is less depth & more entertainment/fellowship. SAD. It makes me wonder what's in store for America after another 5 or 10 yrs.

Anyways, I definitely hear you. By the way, I'm not anti SMALL church groups I just prefer a larger church personally.
I'd hope that whether large or small, they're offering communion & baptising somewhere.

peace

 

[seekthetruth909]

I understand what you mean seek, I know there's plenty of people out there that haven't found a church they're happy with.
For some reason, we have no problem finding one when we move.

I've run into the same problem you have with being dissatisfied w/ the teaching at larger churches... it's like staying in Jr. High year after year.
I wonder if it's that they think people can't handle deeper teaching? Or the people dont WANT deeper teaching?

Josh McDowell wrote a book "The Last Christian Generation" and he's confirmed what you've mentioned about the generations of Christians & how it's gotten lately.
Everything is less depth & more entertainment/fellowship. SAD. It makes me wonder what's in store for America after another 5 or 10 yrs.

Anyways, I definitely hear you. By the way, I'm not anti SMALL church groups I just prefer a larger church personally.
I'd hope that whether large or small, they're offering communion & baptising somewhere.

peace

Thank you Nadine once again you made some good points.
Someone said church is more about information than transformation. For me this sums it up. We reach a plateau in our spiritual development and seem to get stuck there. We have a desire to go further or higher but struggle attempting this alone. We need the support of other Christians, but it doesn’t work unless these Christians are like-minded too, wishing to go deeper. Some churches from the leadership down do not want to go deeper. Maybe the commitment would scare some members away. Transformation means to become Godlier and less worldly which is not so easy to do.

I was raised a Catholic and was lead to believe that all that was required for salvation was church attendance on Sunday and the occasional confession. The rest of your life did not matter. This seemed rather shallow to me so I turned to the Christian faith. But many protestant churches have the same attitude. They make church more like a business recruiting members through entertainment programs and you end up with the same Catholic attitude of being holy for only two hours a week. In some churches the preaching is really good but many do not want to listen if the pastor makes them feel a little uncomfortable.

Nadine I am glad that you found a church you are comfortable in. Please pray that we find one. Thank you for the info on the book, “"The Last Christian Generation". I will try to read it.

Seek

 

[Junco]

Well, I used to see things like yours happening to churches quite a bit in various locales throughout the United States, but I've never heard of quite such awfulness happening to so many congregations in one region! I pray for healing there - not to invade your privacy, but might you post where this is?

Take heart, there are many churches that are alive, healthy and kicking!!

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Interesting that when a pastor defaults hundreds leave, suggests they are just following a man.

 

[Nadiine]

Well, I used to see things like yours happening to churches quite a bit in various locales throughout the United States, but I've never heard of quite such awfulness happening to so many congregations in one region! I pray for healing there - not to invade your privacy, but might you post where this is?

Take heart, there are many churches that are alive, healthy and kicking!!

I so agree

Depending on what your view of eschatology is, the Bible is real clear on the condition of the world right before He's ready to return.

I expect an apostacy to happen in the church (but I also believe many IN the churches don't actually know God on any personal level).

God has always and will always have His remnant. The church isn't folding or being defeated. This has to come before His return.

 

[Starcrystal]

Interesting that when a pastor defaults hundreds leave, suggests they are just following a man.

Actually someone should step in to fill the empty office. This usually doesn't happen though. I've seen someone step in who was just a supporter and defender of the fallen pastor, and they even defend the actions... I remember in my first church they took up a donation for Jim Baker after he was exposed for milking his followers for millions of dollars... huh? And yes, we left the church because it was steeped in sin and wierdness. I've seen radicals step in because they were lurking just waiting for a chance to take over and get in a power position.

What should happen is someone with a leadership gift IN THE SPIRIT gather the people together and just continue on. The church shouldn't fall because of one mans error... but a little leaven leavens the whole lump too....

I so agree

Depending on what your view of eschatology is, the Bible is real clear on the condition of the world right before He's ready to return.

I expect an apostacy to happen in the church (but I also believe many IN the churches don't actually know God on any personal level).

God has always and will always have His remnant. The church isn't folding or being defeated. This has to come before His return.

A geat falling away will occur before and during the end time events. Jesus asked a question, that when he returned would he find faith on the earth? This suggests that only a small percentage of those claiming to be Christians will actually be true disciples. there will be lots of church folk - religious people, but being a member of some church doesn't save anyone.

But there is a stong delusion that they believe this lie.... also prophesied...

 

[Nadiine]

Actually someone should step in to fill the empty office. This usually doesn't happen though. I've seen someone step in who was just a supporter and defender of the fallen pastor, and they even defend the actions... I remember in my first church they took up a donation for Jim Baker after he was exposed for milking his followers for millions of dollars... huh? And yes, we left the church because it was steeped in sin and wierdness. I've seen radicals step in because they were lurking just waiting for a chance to take over and get in a power position.

What should happen is someone with a leadership gift IN THE SPIRIT gather the people together and just continue on. The church shouldn't fall because of one mans error... but a little leaven leavens the whole lump too....



A geat falling away will occur before and during the end time events. Jesus asked a question, that when he returned would he find faith on the earth? This suggests that only a small percentage of those claiming to be Christians will actually be true disciples. there will be lots of church folk - religious people, but being a member of some church doesn't save anyone.

But there is a stong delusion that they believe this lie.... also prophesied...

Amen, rep on way =)

 

[ConfusedSometimes]

Im not exactly sure where my post went.

 

[Zecryphon]

"The problem with many Christian churches is that pride, lust, gossip, gluttony, materialism, covertness, and divorce, [for non biblical reasons] are no longer considered sin in the 21st century."

Those are all considered sin by me and I attend a church in the 21st century. As bad as my previous church was, for various reasons, they still considered those things to be sin. But if you do a sermon on let's say gluttony, how do you do so without offending at least part of your congregation, because we have a serious issue in this country with obesity and being overweight? Nobody is going to go to a church where their own personal sin is taught against. People want to go to a church that condemns others in their sin, like homosexuality.

"Many pastors do not want to scare away their congregation by mentioning these sins in the church; instead they choose to focus on sins outside the church."

True. But who are they really helping by doing this? Aren't they just coddling the congregation in their sin and saying "shh, shh, it's okay. Don't worry about that sin you committed yesterday, we won't talk about it, nobody has to know." What good is that?

"The whole purpose of a church is to worship God and to grow spirituality. Its purpose is not to make us feel self-righteous and spiritually superior to others."

Anyone who is a Christian should not feel self-righteous or superior because there was nothing they did to be made righteous in the eyes of God.

"Pastors should preach more on these sins,[in a non condemnation way] to help Christians grow in the Spirit."

How does one do that? How does on preach about a sin, in a non-condemnational kind of way? Give us an example if you would. Because once you identify a behavior as being sinful, it is only logical that a person who engages in said behavior is going to be a sinner. Well since we can't go around calling Christians sinners, we have to call sin something else, maybe a personal shortcoming? A failing? See where this is going? We punify the gospel when we do this, we deny that we are sinners. So instead of being called sinners we wish to be called, perhaps, imperfect. Fact of the matter is, we're sinners, all of us. If we weren't, Christ wouldn't have needed to take our place on the cross, die and rise from the dead to pay the price for the crimes that we committed against God.

 

[Nadiine]

"The problem with many Christian churches is that pride, lust, gossip, gluttony, materialism, covertness, and divorce, [for non biblical reasons] are no longer considered sin in the 21st century."

Those are all considered sin by me and I attend a church in the 21st century. As bad as my previous church was, for various reasons, they still considered those things to be sin. But if you do a sermon on let's say gluttony, how do you do so without offending at least part of your congregation, because we have a serious issue in this country with obesity and being overweight? Nobody is going to go to a church where their own personal sin is taught against. People want to go to a church that condemns others in their sin, like homosexuality.

"Many pastors do not want to scare away their congregation by mentioning these sins in the church; instead they choose to focus on sins outside the church."

True. But who are they really helping by doing this? Aren't they just coddling the congregation in their sin and saying "shh, shh, it's okay. Don't worry about that sin you committed yesterday, we won't talk about it, nobody has to know." What good is that?

"The whole purpose of a church is to worship God and to grow spirituality. Its purpose is not to make us feel self-righteous and spiritually superior to others."

Anyone who is a Christian should not feel self-righteous or superior because there was nothing they did to be made righteous in the eyes of God.

"Pastors should preach more on these sins,[in a non condemnation way] to help Christians grow in the Spirit."

How does one do that? How does on preach about a sin, in a non-condemnational kind of way? Give us an example if you would. Because once you identify a behavior as being sinful, it is only logical that a person who engages in said behavior is going to be a sinner. Well since we can't go around calling Christians sinners, we have to call sin something else, maybe a personal shortcoming? A failing? See where this is going? We punify the gospel when we do this, we deny that we are sinners. So instead of being called sinners we wish to be called, perhaps, imperfect. Fact of the matter is, we're sinners, all of us. If we weren't, Christ wouldn't have needed to take our place on the cross, die and rise from the dead to pay the price for the crimes that we committed against God.

Um, amen... and this is one huge reason why I believe that God's hand of judgment is going to have to fall on the USA.
WE REFUSE CORRECTION FROM ANYONE AND EVERYONE.

It's inside and outside the church. Our culture has gotten so out of control with "we're all OK", that no one will accept that they are wrong, or to blame.

What happens to a nation that refuses correction? JUDGMENT.

THAT is why I'm so concerned.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

WE REFUSE CORRECTION FROM ANYONE AND EVERYONE.

At last I agree with you, I have pointed out how you have added to scripture or mis-used it concerning the need to receive the Holy Spirit as the bible details (with speaking in tongues), you just carry on without what Jesus gives all of his disciples.

 

[holo]

Because once you identify a behavior as being sinful, it is only logical that a person who engages in said behavior is going to be a sinner. Well since we can't go around calling Christians sinners, we have to call sin something else, maybe a personal shortcoming? A failing? See where this is going? We punify the gospel when we do this, we deny that we are sinners.

The problem isn't so much that sin is re-labeled as "shortcomings" and such, but the very fact that you and many others insist on calling (and treating) us all as sinners. If you tell your child that he's an idiot every single day, he'll start to believe it. And, naturally, he'll act like one. There's power in words.

Nobody ever conquered sin by realizing, over and over and over, that they were sinners. Not one. There's nothing positive about it whatsoever. The only way to conquer sin is to realize who you are in Christ, and what power and rights that follow your identity as a child of God - a "co-heir with Christ," even.

Fact of the matter is, we're sinners, all of us. If we weren't, Christ wouldn't have needed to take our place on the cross, die and rise from the dead to pay the price for the crimes that we committed against God.

Yes, he died for our sins, but let's not go back and crucify him over and over and over again! He died ONCE and for all. He doesn't need to pay for your sins one more time. He didn't die so that you may remain a sinner! He died, and rose, so that you may be born AGAIN, so that you may be a conqeror, not a loser. So that you may take part in HIS righteousness and stop trying to establish your own.

Your accusing us all of being sinners may sound holy and biblical and all, but it's only feeding the very problem that you're trying to solve. Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness, and all the other stuff will be added unto you

 

[Telrunya]

Actually someone should step in to fill the empty office. This usually doesn't happen though. I've seen someone step in who was just a supporter and defender of the fallen pastor, and they even defend the actions... I remember in my first church they took up a donation for Jim Baker after he was exposed for milking his followers for millions of dollars... huh? And yes, we left the church because it was steeped in sin and wierdness. I've seen radicals step in because they were lurking just waiting for a chance to take over and get in a power position.

What should happen is someone with a leadership gift IN THE SPIRIT gather the people together and just continue on. The church shouldn't fall because of one mans error... but a little leaven leavens the whole lump too....



A geat falling away will occur before and during the end time events. Jesus asked a question, that when he returned would he find faith on the earth? This suggests that only a small percentage of those claiming to be Christians will actually be true disciples. there will be lots of church folk - religious people, but being a member of some church doesn't save anyone.

But there is a stong delusion that they believe this lie.... also prophesied...

Our Pastor stepped down recently to deal with family issues and isn't coming back. Our church family is still growing however. Since the church was founded we have had appointed Elders who by biblical definition can fill the pulpit in the absence of a pastor. The Elders are the ones who lead the church and always have. The pastor sits on the elder board and has a vote but it is that group of men, together, who lead our church after being led by Christ. I see alot of Churches that have moved away from the Deacon and Elder model to rely solely on the Pastor. When it comes to actually tending the flock, no matter the size of the flock, I doubt one man can do the job effectively alone even if he is following the walk.

 

[jad123]

"The problem with many Christian churches is that pride, lust, gossip, gluttony, materialism, covertness, and divorce, [for non biblical reasons] are no longer considered sin in the 21st century."

Those are all considered sin by me and I attend a church in the 21st century. As bad as my previous church was, for various reasons, they still considered those things to be sin. But if you do a sermon on let's say gluttony, how do you do so without offending at least part of your congregation, because we have a serious issue in this country with obesity and being overweight? Nobody is going to go to a church where their own personal sin is taught against. People want to go to a church that condemns others in their sin, like homosexuality.

"Many pastors do not want to scare away their congregation by mentioning these sins in the church; instead they choose to focus on sins outside the church."

True. But who are they really helping by doing this? Aren't they just coddling the congregation in their sin and saying "shh, shh, it's okay. Don't worry about that sin you committed yesterday, we won't talk about it, nobody has to know." What good is that?

"The whole purpose of a church is to worship God and to grow spirituality. Its purpose is not to make us feel self-righteous and spiritually superior to others."

Anyone who is a Christian should not feel self-righteous or superior because there was nothing they did to be made righteous in the eyes of God.

"Pastors should preach more on these sins,[in a non condemnation way] to help Christians grow in the Spirit."

How does one do that? How does on preach about a sin, in a non-condemnational kind of way? Give us an example if you would. Because once you identify a behavior as being sinful, it is only logical that a person who engages in said behavior is going to be a sinner. Well since we can't go around calling Christians sinners, we have to call sin something else, maybe a personal shortcoming? A failing? See where this is going? We punify the gospel when we do this, we deny that we are sinners. So instead of being called sinners we wish to be called, perhaps, imperfect. Fact of the matter is, we're sinners, all of us. If we weren't, Christ wouldn't have needed to take our place on the cross, die and rise from the dead to pay the price for the crimes that we committed against God.

Amen!!! You water down the message of God we all see what happens to that church.

 

[Zecryphon]

"The problem isn't so much that sin is re-labeled as "shortcomings" and such, but the very fact that you and many others insist on calling (and treating) us all as sinners."

Holo, it's always somebody else's fault isn't it? It's never you, is it? God has set the criteria by which people are determined to be sinners, not me or anyone else. If you have a problem with the criteria, you can take it up with God when you die.

"If you tell your child that he's an idiot every single day, he'll start to believe it. And, naturally, he'll act like one. There's power in words."

Words convict and the words of God have convicted us of our sin and shown us our need for a savior. What we do with that knowledge and situation is up to us. Address it or ignore it. God gave you a freewill to use in such situations, use it. But don't blame anyone if you choose poorly.

"Nobody ever conquered sin by realizing, over and over and over, that they were sinners."

That's true. But in order to conquer something, you must first be aware of a challenge or a problem. The law of God has pronounced you a sinner and guilty of serious crimes before God. That's a challenge. It's also a challenge that no one can overcome on his own, he or she needs the Holy Spirt, God and the blood of Christ to overcome it.

"There's nothing positive about it whatsoever."

There's not supposed to be something positive about realizing you're a sinner and have fallen short of the perfect standard set by God. The positive comes later, when you call on Jesus Christ to save you from God's wrath, which you have earned by living in opposition to God.

"The only way to conquer sin is to realize who you are in Christ, and what power and rights that follow your identity as a child of God - a "co-heir with Christ," even."

You are not equal in anyway with Jesus. If God is your co-pilot switch seats. God is your father, Jesus is your shepherd and you are a sheep. See where you rank in the grand scheme of things?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Fact of the matter is, we're sinners, all of us. If we weren't, Christ wouldn't have needed to take our place on the cross, die and rise from the dead to pay the price for the crimes that we committed against God.

"Yes, he died for our sins, but let's not go back and crucify him over and over and over again!"

Who's doing that? I'm simply making a statement here. One that gets your undies in a bunch every time you hear it. Why is that?

"He died ONCE and for all. He doesn't need to pay for your sins one more time."

Never said He did. Show me where I said this. You really love putting words in people's mouths don't you?

"He didn't die so that you may remain a sinner!"

Holo, just last week you proved to the entire message board community that you are still a sinner when you said to me and I quote "Go screw yourself" or was it "Screw you"? Remember saying that? According to the Bible, speaking a statement like that, one filled with ill-will towards a brother or sister, is equal to murder in the eyes of God. Welcome to the club. You're a forgiven sinner, just like everybody else who is born-again in Christ Jesus.

"He died, and rose, so that you may be born AGAIN, so that you may be a conqeror, not a loser. So that you may take part in HIS righteousness and stop trying to establish your own."

I'm not trying to do that. Seriously, where do you come up with these fantasies you paint for other people? It can't be from what they write, because none of what you have said here can be found in my posts.

"Your accusing us all of being sinners may sound holy and biblical and all, but it's only feeding the very problem that you're trying to solve."

Satan accuses you and God pronounces you guilty and Jesus saves you. I thought you knew this stuff already. I do none of these things, but feel free to keep shifting the blame onto others if it makes you feel better, and it must because that's all you do around here.

"Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness, and all the other stuff will be added unto you "

Let me know when you actually wanna try that one, Holo. All I see here is another post filled with condemning comments about someone who is sharing Biblical truth along with their opinion. For someone who considers themselves to be liberal, I'm just not seeing the love.