More and more churches exploding?

[ConfusedSometimes]

All around me are churches that are losing membership quite rapidly. There was a good 300-400 person methodist church about 20 miles away that had a huge problem with the pastor (she was somewhat liberal), so 80 percent of the congregation left that church. So, they just shut the doors and sold the building. Another nearby methodist church took up the remaining members.

About 50 miles away is another methodist church that had a recent problem as well. The pastor not only was openly gay, but started to launder money from the church. Needless to say, membership cut in half, and the church is very close to closing its doors as well.

20 miles from there, another church's pastor openly confessed one morning that he was commiting adultery with one of the ladies on the church staff (I have friends that go to this church). He said that he can no longer preach, so he dismissed himself and saught help from other sources, while a new pastor was appointed. Needless to say, membership there dropped as well.

10 miles down the road from that church - a place that started with about 15 people in the congregation meeting each sunday on a ranch. Soon after, the ranch went bankrupt, but the church received huge donations and was able to slowly build a new building on some land. Attendance grew (including my friends). I went as well, but had to leave to go to college. After graduation, I found the church to be big, but seemed to alienate a large crowd, primarily the older people. So, the older people began to leave. A few months later, two people on the financial staff were caught having an affair. Membership dropped because of this. From what I understand, it is still doing so.

One county away, another church is having declining population as well. The church started out strong, membership grew to about 100 or so. At about that point, the pastor was caught mingling in church finances. He was let go, and about half the church followed. What was left of the congregation found a pastor that could lead for a few months while a new permanent one was found. The new pastor came. About 2 years later, major changes came. Those that sang, played instruments or were in the small choir were asked to no longer sing/play. Those that had started the church (elders) were replaced as leaders by the new pastor. Those that headed up the staff (the various ministries such as accounting/finance, sound/media, and outreach were shutdown or replaced with new people). Once again, this same church began to experience a big drop in membership.

I have friends and/or family that all at one time gone to these churches. It is very disturbing to hear these stories from them. Has anyone else seen a trend like this before?

 

[Scorcher505]

I honestly have not seen a trend like that before. The service I used to run at school recently set a record for attendance, 180 people. When I started helping out we had about 40 people per week.

 

[ConfusedSometimes]

I should clarify that I do not believe a church is a successful church just because it keeps a high attendance. What does concern me are dramatic drops, sometimes complete closings, as well as losing touch with good friends.

 

[jsimms615]

All around me are churches that are losing membership quite rapidly. There was a good 300-400 person methodist church about 20 miles away that had a huge problem with the pastor (she was somewhat liberal), so 80 percent of the congregation left that church. So, they just shut the doors and sold the building. Another nearby methodist church took up the remaining members.

About 50 miles away is another methodist church that had a recent problem as well. The pastor not only was openly gay, but started to launder money from the church. Needless to say, membership cut in half, and the church is very close to closing its doors as well.

20 miles from there, another church's pastor openly confessed one morning that he was commiting adultery with one of the ladies on the church staff (I have friends that go to this church). He said that he can no longer preach, so he dismissed himself and saught help from other sources, while a new pastor was appointed. Needless to say, membership there dropped as well.

10 miles down the road from that church - a place that started with about 15 people in the congregation meeting each sunday on a ranch. Soon after, the ranch went bankrupt, but the church received huge donations and was able to slowly build a new building on some land. Attendance grew (including my friends). I went as well, but had to leave to go to college. After graduation, I found the church to be big, but seemed to alienate a large crowd, primarily the older people. So, the older people began to leave. A few months later, two people on the financial staff were caught having an affair. Membership dropped because of this. From what I understand, it is still doing so.

One county away, another church is having declining population as well. The church started out strong, membership grew to about 100 or so. At about that point, the pastor was caught mingling in church finances. He was let go, and about half the church followed. What was left of the congregation found a pastor that could lead for a few months while a new permanent one was found. The new pastor came. About 2 years later, major changes came. Those that sang, played instruments or were in the small choir were asked to no longer sing/play. Those that had started the church (elders) were replaced as leaders by the new pastor. Those that headed up the staff (the various ministries such as accounting/finance, sound/media, and outreach were shutdown or replaced with new people). Once again, this same church began to experience a big drop in membership.

I have friends and/or family that all at one time gone to these churches. It is very disturbing to hear these stories from them. Has anyone else seen a trend like this before?

Yes, I think you mean imploding, not exploding.
I had problems in the church I pastored and resigned last March. It was the best decision I ever made. I have never regretted it.
Another church about 5 miles away had some former trustees lock the doors of the church. For a while, some members met in the parking lot of the church to have church. They put ads in the local paper asking the former trustees to respect the decisions of the church body and to remove the locks, but to my knowledge they never did. The church started then meeting elsewhere.
Part of what is happening is that people no longer know how to get along with others. We have become a more selfish people and if we don't get our ears tickled we go elsewhere or start a fight. The love of others in the church has died down and we no longer feel ashamed that we can't seem to get along with each other. It is one of the sign that the end is near and that Jesus will be back soon I believe.
J

 

[ConfusedSometimes]

You put it perfectly.
It seems that it mostly effects the mid-sized churches. The big churches are so large that a small loss of membership is not that big of a deal. And if there are any corruptions in these large chuches, usually they are covered up with no problem.
The small churches, 30 people and under, usually have less problems since everyone knows each other extremely well, any changes are not radical, and it is overall a big happy family.
The mid sized churches though, entirely different. There are just enough people where you cannot know everyone, and is very easy to become bitter towards others. It is also not big enough to where corruptions that happen in the background can be hidden.

 

[Nadiine]

1 Tim. tells us that in the times of the end (which began at Jesus' 1st coming) that there would be a falling away of the faith.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;​

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-....html#1&Matthew&Henry&Select.x=30&Select.y=10 (commentary)

It shows us there's an apostacy that will occur in people proclaiming Faith in God - AND that false teachers have crept in.

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.​

I think we're seeing the fulfillment of this prophecy today.

This aligns with what Jesus repeatedly warned us of:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. ​

& Paul:​

2Cr 11:13-14 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
​

God ALWAYS has His remnant - the TRUE followers.
God is in full control, He hasn't failed & His true church isn't failing.​

Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.​

 

[holo]

I think that the more legalistic the climate, the more vile and hidden the sins will be. The brighter the facade the pastor must keep up, the more darkness is left for sins and addictions to grow there.

I think it's also a problem that a pastor has so much influence and power that, when he falls, the entire church dissolves. It generally leaves me with the impression that many church goers are sort of helpless on their own.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I think that the more legalistic the climate, the more vile and hidden the sins will be. The brighter the facade the pastor must keep up, the more darkness is left for sins and addictions to grow there.

Very true . While certain groups continually rant and rave about homosexuality that they don't consider is in their midst , little or nothing is mentioned about adultry which exists in many of their groups . And , how much is mentioned from the pulpits concerning abused spouses and children that are in attendance ? Look in the forums . You will find quite a few threads on homosexuality . How many threads on adultry or spousal abuse or child abuse among christians ?

By focusing on the sins that are not happening within their groups , they lessen the time that they can spend on those sins withing them . The leaven grows and spreads .

Going back to the OP . There are groups where the leader is caught in adultry and the people who leae are those that are disgusted that the leader will not step down and a large part of the group doesn't care and like to hear the person speak .

 

[Nadiine]

I think that the more legalistic the climate, the more vile and hidden the sins will be. The brighter the facade the pastor must keep up, the more darkness is left for sins and addictions to grow there.

I think it's also a problem that a pastor has so much influence and power that, when he falls, the entire church dissolves. It generally leaves me with the impression that many church goers are sort of helpless on their own.

If you consider people who call Christians to live a holy life, pleasing to God, "legalistic", then i disagree w/ you.
Quite the contrary though - MOST Christians I know complain that the Christian leaders AREN'T preaching enough about obedience to God, sin & hell.
Just the opposite of your observation here.... hmmm

LEGALISTS are those who promote the OT TORAH as either the means to salvation (works based law), OR demand we adhere to the entire OT. Torah in all aspects that are applicable today.

To call people to adhere to obedience as the Bible calls us to obey God's moral commands, is NOT legalism.

Amazing how liberal theology adherants RUN to assume the church is "falling apart" becuz of [their definition of] "legalists" - people who take the Lord & His word SERIOUS, to keep it and live holy lives.

I guess it's all in the definitions isn't it

 

[Nadiine]

Very true . While certain groups continually rant and rave about homosexuality that they don't consider is in their midst , little or nothing is mentioned about adultry which exists in many of their groups . And , how much is mentioned from the pulpits concerning abused spouses and children that are in attendance ? Look in the forums . You will find quite a few threads on homosexuality . How many threads on adultry or spousal abuse or child abuse among christians ?

By focusing on the sins that are not happening within their groups , they lessen the time that they can spend on those sins withing them . The leaven grows and spreads .

Why aren't there more posts against adultery, spousal & child abuse??

BECUZ WE ALL AGREE THAT IT'S SIN. The reason for homosexual threads is becuz liberal theology adherants ARE PROMOTING IT AS A GODLY LIFESTYLE which violates God's word. It's being pushed onto the church.

There is a spiritual war going on about that sin - not about child abuse & adultery which are predominantly already accepted as sinful.

Many of your posts that I read also seem to focus on the "sins" of conservative/Orthodox Christians too -
perhaps in order to change this trend you notice, (of us viewing others sins so we can focus on our own), we have to first change ourselves - removing our own planks.

 

[ivory]

Why aren't there more posts against adultery, spousal & child abuse??

BECUZ WE ALL AGREE THAT IT'S SIN. The reason for homosexual threads is becuz liberal theology adherants ARE PROMOTING IT AS A GODLY LIFESTYLE which violates God's word. It's being pushed onto the church.

There is a spiritual war going on about that sin - not about child abuse & adultery which are predominantly already accepted as sinful.

Many of your posts that I read also seem to focus on the "sins" of conservative/Orthodox Christians too -
perhaps in order to change this trend you notice, (of us viewing others sins so we can focus on our own), we have to first change ourselves - removing our own planks.

Hi, remember these are the end times

 

[holo]

If you consider people who call Christians to live a holy life, pleasing to God, "legalistic", then i disagree w/ you.

Well, I don't think that

Quite the contrary though - MOST Christians I know complain that the Christian leaders AREN'T preaching enough about obedience to God, sin & hell.

It's true, as is also stated in this thread - there are the kinds of preachers who will launder money through their church or trun the whole thing into a motivational club or something. If I've understood things correctly, this is more of a problem in the U.S. than in Europe.

LEGALISTS are those who promote the OT TORAH as either the means to salvation (works based law), OR demand we adhere to the entire OT. Torah in all aspects that are applicable today.ss it's all in the definitions isn't it

In that case, the only legalists would be the pharisees of Jesus' day. But legalism is hardly just about OT rules. There are churches that will, for example, forbid people to play cards or to drink beer. That's legalism.

Amazing how liberal theology adherants RUN to assume the church is "falling apart" becuz of [their definition of] "legalists" - people who take the Lord & His word SERIOUS, to keep it and live holy lives.

It's amazing how legalists will RUN to assume that the church is "falling apart" because of their definition of "liberals"

By the way, it's not like the definition of liberals are people who take the word of God seriously, and the definition of a legalist isn't someone who does take the bible seriously.

 

[holo]

Why aren't there more posts against adultery, spousal & child abuse??

BECUZ WE ALL AGREE THAT IT'S SIN.

Yes, those things may be more clearly sinful. But child abuse is about 432156 million times more harmful than homosexuality. It's a shame that we believers are better known for the sins we're against, than our efforts to stop child abuse.

 

[Nadiine]

Yes, those things may be more clearly sinful. But child abuse is about 432156 million times more harmful than homosexuality. It's a shame that we believers are better known for the sins we're against, than our efforts to stop child abuse.

Becuz Christians are persecuted more & more today; despite the fact that it's Christians who host & sponsor most charities.

People are more focused on pointing out Christian's shortcomings than to see what we actually do.
Look at Jesus - He was showing pure Love, and He was accused of being a drunkard, working for satan, a blasphemer, sitting with sinners & his fate was crucifixion for all His love.

Jesus came in love and said "they hated Me first". We're hated becuz of HIS name & what it stands for.

So why aren't we seen for the GOOD we do? The world would rather spot our wrongs & shortcomings. NOT that we don't do enough.

For every "bad" Christian they point at, I can point at twice as many MORE who haven't fallen & who are wonderful Christians living for Christ.

 

[ivory]

Becuz Christians are persecuted more & more today; despite the fact that it's Christians who host & sponsor most charities.

People are more focused on pointing out Christian's shortcomings than to see what we actually do.
Look at Jesus - He was showing pure Love, and He was accused of being a drunkard, working for satan, a blasphemer, sitting with sinners & his fate was crucifixion for all His love.

Jesus came in love and said "they hated Me first". We're hated becuz of HIS name & what it stands for.

So why aren't we seen for the GOOD we do? The world would rather spot our wrongs & shortcomings. NOT that we don't do enough.

For every "bad" Christian they point at, I can point at twice as many MORE who haven't fallen & who are wonderful Christians living for Christ.

Yes child abuse is very badm indeed, but the bible says in
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 asks "Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." Paul uses two words which refer to homosexuality. The word "effeminate" (malakos) here refers to catamites -- those who assume the passive role in a homosexual relationship. The word for homosexuals is arsenokoites which is defined as "one who lies with a male as a female; sodomite; homosexual." Paul says that this sin will keep one out of the Kingdom of God and notes that some who had once been involved in homosexuality had repented of the practice, given up the homosexual life - style and surrendered to the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[holo]

People are more focused on pointing out Christian's shortcomings than to see what we actually do.

That's absolutely true. Christians don't get famous for charities.

We're hated becuz of HIS name & what it stands for.

This I don't agree with. Christians are accused of being bigots, hypocrites, swindlers, moralists etc, but rarely for preaching the gospel. It does happen in some 3rd world and communist/islamic countries, but I've never seen it happen in the West.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Yes, those things may be more clearly sinful. But child abuse is about 432156 million times more harmful than homosexuality. It's a shame that we believers are better known for the sins we're against, than our efforts to stop child abuse.

Yeah . They won't confront the people in their own groups about child or spousal abuse but have no problem talking to each other about homosexuality . They know that it is among christians but would rather look externally at others and not themselves .

 

[New_Wineskin]

This I don't agree with. Christians are accused of being bigots, hypocrites, swindlers, moralists etc, but rarely for preaching the gospel. It does happen in some 3rd world and communist/islamic countries, but I've never seen it happen in the West.

They are rightfully accused of such in the west . The most vocal are those that want to force others to have an external righteousness of "do not handle ; do not taste ; do not touch" instead of being examples . Seeing how these legalists handle each other , I understand completely why nonchristians are attempting to shut them down . But , legalists look at it as persecution instead of what it is - people attempting to protect themselves and others from these swindlers .

 

[macrohard]

Well this all seems to be a continuing problem, regardless of the size or denomination of the congregation.

Our church unfortunately has gone through it as well this year, and we also have seen a membership drop, not to mention a rift with members of my wife's family. Some of our local congregations from various denominations have also had problems.

 

[Nadiine]

They are rightfully accused of such in the west . The most vocal are those that want to force others to have an external righteousness of "do not handle ; do not taste ; do not touch" instead of being examples . Seeing how these legalists handle each other , I understand completely why nonchristians are attempting to shut them down . But , legalists look at it as persecution instead of what it is - people attempting to protect themselves and others from these swindlers .

Yeah . They won't confront the people in their own groups about child or spousal abuse but have no problem talking to each other about homosexuality . They know that it is among christians but would rather look externally at others and not themselves .

Once again I have to ask, WHO IS THE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN?

This level of vitriol on Christians painted in such broad brush strokes is just unwarrented & downright offensive to me.

Where's the love of GOD for the brethren around here?
John tells us that love of the brethren is a sign of the true believer.

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
​

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.​