Morals

[gracealone]

Hi Steve,
Thank you for your willingness to consider what I wrote without taking offense. I appreciate and am thankful for your obvious concern and empathy for Raven and all of us who have this disorder.
God Bless!
Mitzi

Thank you for clarifying that. It makes sense in terms of how OCD works.

 

[steve_bakr]

If you have pedophilia, you had better give yourself over completely to a religious life, see a psychiatrist, and take medication for OCD.

Raven,

I apologize if my post offended you. Gracealone helped me to understand better what I should have understood in the first place. As a matter of fact, the lives of the saints are filled with such obsessive and intrusive thoughts, and we all have our crosses to bear. Please don't stop believing in our Lord on that account. God bless you.

 

[raven1]

Thanks gracealone it is fine steve. I understand not wanting to reassure me so I get it if you dont respond to the latter part of the next sentence. I hpoe this doesnt offend you or OCD owie. Both of you guys have told me that the doubt itself was not from OCD that the obsessional wheel u got on about it was ocd. first thing I dont understand is i dont understand who would not obsess it is not good to doubt God exists and secondly y therapy they are just going to stifle my fear when I should be upset about this. I doubt because I cannot see God and i freak out there is no heaven and I cant prove it 100 percent. The therapist cant take me to see heaven and God. I was also thinking I i believed in God 100 percent again woud I believe in heaven and I cant know so maybe my doubt isnt even because of that fear how can he forgive then if I dont know my doubts are fear based. I mean I have thoughts atheists are smarter, no good. how can I not go to hell? Thanks guys
Oh ps gracealone actually what you said about your doubt being OCD is exactly right you couldnt have kwown as well as I can't if it is actually OCD that caused the doubt actually you said the doubt itself wasn't so how can I know God while not punish me if it isn't a disorder that causes my doubt.

 

[steve_bakr]

Only a trained professional can confirm for you how much your thought processes are related to OCD. If you are obsessing about whether you are going to hell over your thoughts, it sounds like OCD, which can be helped with medication.

Working through your existential doubts about God might be helped by consulting a spiritual director. I went through a period of doubt in my life; it is not that uncommon to go through such a period.

I would also place your trust in God's mercy when it comes to your destiny.

 

[raven1]

y I shouldnt be obsessing. god says u need to believe to get into heaven not hope. I have read apologetics out the wahzoo and still doubt. mayne I was just not choosen to believe

 

[steve_bakr]

y I shouldnt be obsessing. god says u need to believe to get into heaven not hope. I have read apologetics out the wahzoo and still doubt. mayne I was just not choosen to believe

Don't count yourself out, hope is a good start. Hold onto hope, which leads to faith.

 

[raven1]

I just got a text from someone saying I choose not to believe. It's not that I don't want to. I would love help like reasons others believe. The thing is I will probably still doubt. What does it mean if I get to the point I am not afraid God will send me to hell but still doubt I know plenty if non orders and a couple ocders that feel like that. They arent afraid that God will send them to hell but still doubt.my last obsession lasted over twenty years. I am tired I read the bible and doubt more or just continue to doubt but what would God say if I spent less time on the obsession of him not existing. last obsession I literally formed a split personality starting to with this on as well. I come to two conclusions maybe God doesn't which I don't want to cause what if I am wrong or I was not chosen by God to be saved why else would I suffer. It is only by his grace we aren't murders, etc. so it must be him that gives us belief. I don't understand y he would create us to be doubters murders pedophile etc. then send us to hell but I fear he might.

 

[steve_bakr]

I just got a text from someone saying I choose not to believe. It's not that I don't want to. I would love help like reasons others believe. The thing is I will probably still doubt. What does it mean if I get to the point I am not afraid God will send me to hell but still doubt I know plenty if non orders and a couple ocders that feel like that. They arent afraid that God will send them to hell but still doubt.my last obsession lasted over twenty years. I am tired I read the bible and doubt more or just continue to doubt but what would God say if I spent less time on the obsession of him not existing. last obsession I literally formed a split personality starting to with this on as well. I come to two conclusions maybe God doesn't which I don't want to cause what if I am wrong or I was not chosen by God to be saved why else would I suffer. It is only by his grace we aren't murders, etc. so it must be him that gives us belief. I don't understand y he would create us to be doubters murders pedophile etc. then send us to hell but I fear he might.

It says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. It helps us to understand that there are consequences to the choices we make.

If you want to believe and have hope, those are enough of a foundation to choose to believe.

 

[kaykay9.0]

Raven, I asked God what I could/share with you and I believe He said to simply tell you He loves you.

Also, let me put it this way. This is how I see doubt and the OCD-er. I think almost everyone has some passing thoughts of doubt, but if you battle OCD, I think you have a tendency to grab onto the doubts, obscess about them and not be able to "shake them off" as easily as someone who doesn't struggle with OCD. So while you might could say that OCD doesn't cause doubt per se, I think it does make it harder to shake stuff off and resolve than as a "non-OCD" person would be able to do. Hope that makes sense.

 

[raven1]

I just can't have concrete evidence of anything whether God or heaven exists. Whether I will go to hell for doubt or if I am too bad it stinks. So I fearful about everything.

 

[gracealone]

Hi Raven, I'm not offended. I have a different view of what it means to have faith. I used to think it meant that I'd feel totally confident, like 100% assured that God was real and more importantly that I really, I mean really and truly believed that. How my OCD drove me crazy was this constant need to figure out or prove to myself that I really had faith or to figure out if I believed in God without a shadow of a doubt. When I'd try to do that all sorts of reasons to "not believe" would shove in and torment me. Things like you have described about atheism, science, heaven, hell etc. These thoughts made me feel like I couldn't possibly be a real Christian. Then when I'd look around my church or at my family and see them so calm and confident in their faith I'd think... "see that's because they are real Christians and you aren't." I really had to learn that because I had OCD the more I tried to figure out if I was a bonifide Christian the more I became convinced that I wasn't and therefore, the greater my doubt became. I've come to understand that faith is a volitional act. We choose to walk in it, not because we feel confident or reassured but because we have weighed the two options and we have decided that outside of faith in the Cross of Christ we have no other hope. It's like the Apostle Paul said.."If Christ hasn't been raised from the dead than we of all human beings are to be most pitied."
Faith and obedience go hand in hand. One can have faith and go through periods of doubt but still walk in faith. The only reason a person would choose to walk in faith while feeling intense doubt is because they actually have faith. When a person chooses to follow Christ and His commands they are exercising faith. When they continue to do it even when every trace of emotional comfort concerning their faith has fled then they are exercising an even greater measure of faith. OCD will rob us of emotional validation but it can't rob us of our choice to walk in faith. Faith isn't faith at all if we have 100% proof. It's only assertion. Faith is choosing to believe in something that we cannot see or prove. That's why it's called faith. So OCD is asking you to do the impossible. It's asking you to get proof so you can have faith. Which is really an oxymoron. This is because having that 100% proof removes the possibility of having faith. If I hand you a nickel and you tell me it's a nickel I wouldn't be impressed. But if I told you I had a nickel to give you hidden in my hand you would have to have faith that I actually had it. God has asked us to choose Him in faith because if He came down here in all His glory and showed Himself to us we would have no choice but to give Him the most obvious assent ; "You are LORD!" He would rather we choose willingly in faith than to bend the knee when there is no other choice. "And at that time every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord." Getting 100% proof about anything does not and cannot equal faith - it only equals assertion. And giving assent to the obvious, (Oh look a nickel!) impresses no one and has nothing to do with faith.
As to therapy.. well if the therapist took you to heaven to see God then you would be robbed of your opportunity to experience faith. A therapist, if they are a good one will actually force you to sit with the doubt without seeking proof or reassurance and to even exaggerate it. Trust me, ERP is no picnic but it does work. As far as your comments on doubt. You are making doubt about God an exception as to whether or not it has any OCD component. I believe every OCD doubt starts out as a normal frightening question that any human might pose. "What if I stab my baby? What if I go crazy? What if I drive into a tree? What if I ran over someone? Is the door locked? Are my hands clean? Why did I think that horrid blashphemous thought? Why did I have that sickening image or thought in my brain? What if God isn't real?" Now if you don't happen to have a broken fire alarm in your head you can move past these things fairly quickly but on the other hand if the fire alarm goes off and keeps on going off these things become obsessions. So it doesn't really matter to me what the theme the process of how OCD obsessions get a hold of us is the same. It's just that some themes are more threatening than others and those are the biggies that we struggle and strive over sometimes for years if we don't get help.
Nuff said... wish I hadn't said as much as I had. I forget... you cannot outlogic OCD. :/
Praying for you,
Mitzi

Thanks gracealone it is fine steve. I understand not wanting to reassure me so I get it if you dont respond to the latter part of the next sentence. I hpoe this doesnt offend you or OCD owie. Both of you guys have told me that the doubt itself was not from OCD that the obsessional wheel u got on about it was ocd. first thing I dont understand is i dont understand who would not obsess it is not good to doubt God exists and secondly y therapy they are just going to stifle my fear when I should be upset about this. I doubt because I cannot see God and i freak out there is no heaven and I cant prove it 100 percent. The therapist cant take me to see heaven and God. I was also thinking I i believed in God 100 percent again woud I believe in heaven and I cant know so maybe my doubt isnt even because of that fear how can he forgive then if I dont know my doubts are fear based. I mean I have thoughts atheists are smarter, no good. how can I not go to hell? Thanks guys
Oh ps gracealone actually what you said about your doubt being OCD is exactly right you couldnt have kwown as well as I can't if it is actually OCD that caused the doubt actually you said the doubt itself wasn't so how can I know God while not punish me if it isn't a disorder that causes my doubt.

 

[raven1]

I understand everything but the u cannot have 100 percent faith or it wouldn't be faith. that is exactly right so maybe God didn't give me the option of being saved since I obviously cannot stop doubting.

 

[steve_bakr]

I understand everything but the u cannot have 100 percent faith or it wouldn't be faith. that is exactly right so maybe God didn't give me the option of being saved since I obviously cannot stop doubting.

Agreed that 100% faith may not be possible. Not agreed that that means your not going to be saved. That part is the OCD talking.

 

[raven1]

I meant u can't have 100 percent proof so u need faith which is a gift from God I don't have so maybe I wasn't chosen. Some people say I am saved some people say I am not,my point is I can not know who is right. So I get to spend the rest of my life in fear. Or I can go to a therapist that can help you stifle the fears you might should have because fundamentalist might be right that you can't doubt. I don't if know if I can call it doubt I just know I just don't know if God exists.

 

[steve_bakr]

I meant u can't have 100 percent proof so u need faith which is a gift from God I don't have so maybe I wasn't chosen. Some people say I am saved some people say I am not,my point is I can not know who is right. So I get to spend the rest of my life in fear. Or I can go to a therapist that can help you stifle the fears you might should have because fundamentalist might be right that you can't doubt. I don't if know if I can call it doubt I just know I just don't know if God exists.

Seek the assistance of a psychiatrist who is sympathetic towards religion.

 

[raven1]

Dude a psychiatrist can't give me my faith back.

 

[kaykay9.0]

Dude a psychiatrist can't give me my faith back.

Actually, you might be surprised how much treating the OCD could help your faith. When your OCD is not rampant, the doubts have a tendency to settle down. I know it doesn't seem like it is related to OCD, but trust me, it generally is if you struggle with OCD and from what you have related here, you do.

 

[raven1]

I pretty much know I will doubt the rest of my life. I can't know if God will forgive me so I am destined to live in fear. today I saw a agnostic on here that I know I was kinda hoping she responded to my thread. smh

 

[steve_bakr]

I pretty much know I will doubt the rest of my life. I can't know if God will forgive me so I am destined to live in fear. today I saw a agnostic on here that I know I was kinda hoping she responded to my thread. smh

OCD!!

 

[raven1]

ocd does not make you doubt God exists. it can make u think u do but deep down u believe like fifigirl and frank but not true doubt and if it was Ocd there is no way to prove it one way or the other.