Moon was Created

[thaumaturgy]

No. Dirt, I don't find exciting, especially in cold space.

Wow. You've never talked to a geologist have you?

You have just shown how little you understand about how a scientist thinks. Until you get this part down you will be lost to the scientific mindset.

Too bad for you. But understandable. Thinking about things is hard work!

 

[dad]

Of course they are just made up. Nobody ever lived 900 years.

That is baseless balderdash. You mean we could not do so now, and have not in recorded history. (except real real early documents, like Sumer!)

But that aside where in the Bible does it say that there are spirits in the moon?

It says that God is above. He is always referred to as up there somewhere. Jesus went up. Heaven is up, and one day will come down. The nearest heavenly body is fair game for spirits as far as the bible goes! It does seem to be a source of spiritual energy. It impacted many. One lady, was even said to have her foot on the moon! I think most feel that that lady represented the believers, or 'church'. (Revelations) Now, where do we go when we die, if we are believers? Heaven! Up! Since the lady had a foot on the moon, it seems the moon was a good enough place for us to be.

Where does it say that there were very different physical laws that flip-flopped around however you think you need them to to fit you fantasy until 100 years after the flood?

The fast growth rate of trees, and lifespans, and light that got to Adam from far stars, and etc all could not happen in this state universe. It has to be different, just as the future is going to be! The new heavens.
The bible clearly establishes beyond doubt that this is a temporary state universe we live in. That is certain! This heavens and earth will pass away. Most Christians on earth agree! No choice. The state of our heavens is temporary.
You have to admit that this temporary nature is ALL that science has used to set the clocks for the past and future!!! It is all based on the presently observed universe we live in.
Now, if you dare to make a bible case against that gospel truth, do so! Otherwise, you have no case.

Where does it say that there was No Gravity before the flood?

New Jerusalem is a huge, almost moon sized object, that will sail on down, and land on earth. Gravity as we know it can't be in effect then. Again, the future is the key to the past, not the temporary state!
How did water come up from below to water the earth?? How did the continents separate quickly, if the bible timeline is right?? Etc.

Right you are into revenge fantasies carried out by your vicious, revengfull, jealous God just like many other Biblical literalists.

Tough! You better fear, and get in line, would be the message there, and He don't mean maybe. He will do the best and loving thing for man, regardless of the wicked.
If we knew Him, we would know He is like that, and there had to be good reasons why some real wicked people had to be destroyed. Like Sodom.

So you understand repented. If God repented of his creation it means his creation was a mistake. Your supposedly omnipotent and omniscient God blundered and repented of it.

No it does not. It means that He was sorry man used the majestic gift of free will to be evil, and violent, and He was sad, cause He knew that man would have to be wiped out, so that mankind could be saved.
By the way, you never answered about your faith. You said something about someone should not assume you don't believe in God. I asked if you were Jewish, or Christian?

 

[Nitron]

Dad is return!

Go Dad!

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

That is baseless balderdash. You mean we could not do so now, and have not in recorded history. (except real real early documents, like Sumer!)

Yes people living 900 years is baseless balderdash. The Sumerian claims of long lives were copied by the Hebrews. The idea of people living 900 years is absurd.

It says that God is above. He is always referred to as up there somewhere. Jesus went up. Heaven is up, and one day will come down. The nearest heavenly body is fair game for spirits as far as the bible goes! It does seem to be a source of spiritual energy. It impacted many. One lady, was even said to have her foot on the moon! I think most feel that that lady represented the believers, or 'church'. (Revelations) Now, where do we go when we die, if we are believers? Heaven! Up! Since the lady had a foot on the moon, it seems the moon was a good enough place for us to be.

So Jesus is in the moon? We are going to the moon when we die???

The fast growth rate of trees, and lifespans, and light that got to Adam from far stars, and etc all could not happen in this state universe. It has to be different, just as the future is going to be! The new heavens.
The bible clearly establishes beyond doubt that this is a temporary state universe we live in. That is certain! This heavens and earth will pass away. Most Christians on earth agree! No choice. The state of our heavens is temporary.
You have to admit that this temporary nature is ALL that science has used to set the clocks for the past and future!!! It is all based on the presently observed universe we live in.
Now, if you dare to make a bible case against that gospel truth, do so! Otherwise, you have no case.

This temporary state of nature has been going on for more than 13 billion years. I made the case before. I have science you have fantasy. End of story.

New Jerusalem is a huge, almost moon sized object, that will sail on down, and land on earth. Gravity as we know it can't be in effect then. Again, the future is the key to the past, not the temporary state!

How did water come up from below to water the earth??

It didn't.

How did the continents separate quickly,

They didn't.

if the bible timeline is right?? Etc.

Your intepretation of the Bible timeline isn't.

Tough! You better fear, and get in line, would be the message there, and He don't mean maybe. He will do the best and loving thing for man, regardless of the wicked.
If we knew Him, we would know He is like that, and there had to be good reasons why some real wicked people had to be destroyed. Like Sodom.

Like I said revenge fantasies.

No it does not. It means that He was sorry man used the majestic gift of free will to be evil, and violent, and He was sad, cause He knew that man would have to be wiped out, so that mankind could be saved.
By the way, you never answered about your faith. You said something about someone should not assume you don't believe in God. I asked if you were Jewish, or Christian?

Repented means repented. Repented means He blew it. You claim He created man and gave him the gift of free will but he should have known what would happen if he was truely omniscient. Besides don't you guys claim that a lot of the problems were caused by the sons of God mating with mortal women? How did your supposed loving omnipotent, omniscient God generate such evil grandkids?

 

[dad]

No evidence? No argument.

You have no evidence of a solid spirit! You have no arguement that there are any, so don't ask for solid evidence. Solid evidence is for things solid. Spiritual evidence is for things spiritual.

I've been to plenty of places that instill me and others with a feeling that seems exactly like what the astronauts experienced. That feeling is brought on by any amazing place, of which Mars would qualify. There's no need to use spirits to explain anything.

You are guessing. You also are assuming it was just feelings.

Answer the question.

Hey, I expect to live in a city here 1500 miles high. That means a view of thousands of miles either way. The walls are see through as well. Transparent gold. The earth will be our footstool! As for the moon, we will be able to travel to the far ends of the universe, and probably beyond!!

Are they really? So what distinguishes a spiritual impact from a psychological, but nonetheless physical impact?

That requires being born of the spirit, so you know the difference. Otherwise we are carnally minded.

I've dealt with that one fine, thank you very much - the astronauts being Christian is explained perfectly by the population of the US.

That is one way to try to explain it.

So? There are plenty of things in, medicine, say, which were discovered by the Muslim world long before anyone else found out about them. We found out, in fact, by going and asking, not by doing it ourselves.
You can't argue that scientific prowess indicates the correct religion unless you're going to convert.

I argued that, contrary to claims of some I think on this very forum, being Christian does not put one in the dark ages!! I do not begrudge others some light, and some accomplishments as well.

But going to the moon, just as it does not depend on your skin colour, does not depend on your religion. Thanks.

How would we know that yet? How about some evidence? If we can see a good mix on the moon over the next decade or so, you would have a point. I can only go by the facts before us! The stats that we now have suggest that a good many of the few were Christian, as outlined in the OP. For all I know so far, God may have only allowed those to walk on the moon, and no one else ever will?? If all hell broke loose on earth, and serious wars, and tribulations, etc, maybe moon programs would all be canceled, or put on hold? I have no idea. I have to go by the actual evidence! So far, it seems beyond coincidence.

If I can experience a spiritual feeling on a mountain, then spirits are not needed for a spiritual feeling, unless there were spirits in the mountain too. Were there?

Can you prove that there are no spirits on mountains?? If not, you have no case.

The difference is one of magnitude - the moon is higher, more amazing, more serene, more humbling. All of those factors contribute to the greater experience. But they are physical factors.

That is all in your head. That is pure opinion. Guessing. You have no idea what you are talking about. If there was a spiritual hub of activity there, unseen on the surface, to the eyes of men, that would also do the trick! In fact, it sounds more like real spiritual impact to me.

But your supposed spirits didn't influence everyone. Why not? I can understand perfectly how not everyone would appreciate the humbling aspect of going to the moon, but if a spirit wants to influence you, why wouldn't it?

How would you know if you were influenced by spirits or not? What if they inspired someone in the putting together of books you read at school? What if one of your teachers was a warlock, secretly, and purposely tried to cast spells? What if you saw a movie that was inspiring, and uplifting, and it gave some hope? Could that not have been inspired? Good or bad. How about music? Could some lift you to the heavenly places, and other bits make you want to kill??

There is no such thing as an explanation by faith. It is an explanation based on the available data. That means it isn't speculation - which is just a guess.

In that case, the available data is that mostly Christians were allowed to go to the moon.

So? Just because 200 years ago had people writing in it isn't evidence that gravity behaved just the same as it does now, is it? You assume that gravity behaved the same.

Yes I do. So? I assume based on good evidences. Reasonable proofs. Nothing wrong with that. Reality is a good thing.

Nope, but you're the one admitting you find it more difficult to have a spiritual experience than an atheist! Haha!

Oh, no, I have no problem with spiritual experiences. I could have those on a nice warm beach, chatting it up with the gals. No need to go wandering in cold space, on some dusty barren, boring surface of a moon. If I bothered to go, I am sure it would also be a spiritual experience. Spiritual minded people have those for breakfast.

 

[dad]

Wow. You've never talked to a geologist have you?

You have just shown how little you understand about how a scientist thinks. Until you get this part down you will be lost to the scientific mindset.

Too bad for you. But understandable. Thinking about things is hard work!

Depends how you think about them. I find it easy. Besides, I don't think I was asked how a geologist might like it, playing in moon dust. Someone asked if I would get my rocks off there.

 

[dad]

Yes people living 900 years is baseless balderdash. The Sumerian claims of long lives were copied by the Hebrews. The idea of people living 900 years is absurd.

Prove it.

So Jesus is in the moon? We are going to the moon when we die???

How would I know?? He is up there somewhere, as is heaven, and departed believers. To think some could not use the moon as a base seems pretty baseless to me. Work on that.

This temporary state of nature has been going on for more than 13 billion years. I made the case before. I have science you have fantasy. End of story.

You made a lame case, and are over ruled. All your fantasies are set to this nature universe. You have no science beyond this universe, face it.

It didn't.
They didn't. Your intepretation of the Bible timeline isn't.

Well, prove it!! Your claim that the bible is wrong is hollow, and empty. Water did come up, we are told, why believe you??

Like I said revenge fantasies.

Prove it.

Repented means repented. Repented means He blew it. You claim He created man and gave him the gift of free will but he should have known what would happen if he was truely omniscient.

We may know that a child will get sick if they disobey, but, it still can be upsetting when they do. He was upset we blew it, but He was not about to be defeated. He always wins. He had to save the good men, and change some things, (like the universe!) to get us back on track, so Jesus could come.

Besides don't you guys claim that a lot of the problems were caused by the sons of God mating with mortal women?

Not me. I think it was just angels having fun. I think many churches feel sex is bad, so the whole thing had to be bad as well, and it had to be bad angels! I don't see why.

 

[thaumaturgy]

...

 

[FishFace]

You have no evidence of a solid spirit! You have no arguement that there are any, so don't ask for solid evidence.

Why are you still drawing attention to the fact that you have no evidence? If there's evidence, present it. If not, shush.

You are guessing. You also are assuming it was just feelings.

I am indeed assuming it was just feelings - because all the described was feelings.

Hey, I expect to live in a city here 1500 miles high. That means a view of thousands of miles either way. The walls are see through as well. Transparent gold. The earth will be our footstool! As for the moon, we will be able to travel to the far ends of the universe, and probably beyond!!

I don't care about your transparent gold, or who you'll be boinking, or anything like that. You didn't answer the question, so shush.

That requires being born of the spirit, so you know the difference. Otherwise we are carnally minded.

So there's no way of telling them apart. As I thought.

That is one way to try to explain it.

The best. The most parsimonious.

I argued that, contrary to claims of some I think on this very forum, being Christian does not put one in the dark ages!!

Unless you are a creationist, in which case it does.

How would we know that yet? How about some evidence? If we can see a good mix on the moon over the next decade or so, you would have a point. I can only go by the facts before us! The stats that we now have suggest that a good many of the few were Christian, as outlined in the OP.

And many of the few were white, as well. So?

So far, it seems beyond coincidence.

Because you're looking for a pattern where we already have a perfectly good one.

Can you prove that there are no spirits on mountains?? If not, you have no case.

Let S = Spirit, and M = mountain.
Suppose for a contradiction, M --> S. But, M ^ ¬S --> S. So ¬S --> S, which is a contradiction. So M ^ ¬S. QED.
If you can prove that there are no invisible elephants in your wardrobe, I'll explain the proof.

That is all in your head. That is pure opinion. Guessing. You have no idea what you are talking about. If there was a spiritual hub of activity there, unseen on the surface, to the eyes of men, that would also do the trick!

Exactly. We have two explanations - one natural, one unnatural. When we see something happen, we always assume that something natural caused it. When a ball bounces, we don't decide that fairies caused it, or spirits, or whatever. Same here. There is a plausible natural explanation, so we use that.

How would you know if you were influenced by spirits or not?

So you're assuming that even the astronauts who didn't say they were affected, were affected. Right.

In that case, the available data is that mostly Christians were allowed to go to the moon.

And mostly white men, too.

Yes I do. So? I assume based on good evidences. Reasonable proofs. Nothing wrong with that. Reality is a good thing.

And yet you've not presented any of this evidence here? All you've said is that people didn't write down that they floated off - but gravity could still have been quite different. So you have no evidence, just an assumption.

Oh, no, I have no problem with spiritual experiences. I could have those on a nice warm beach, chatting it up with the gals.

I can imagine - "would you like to see my flying throne?"

No need to go wandering in cold space, on some dusty barren, boring surface of a moon. If I bothered to go, I am sure it would also be a spiritual experience.

The fact that you can't appreciate that the moon would be an amazing place to go, and not in the least bit boring, tells me that you are probably less spiritual than most atheists. Do you never get a sense of awe just looking up at the stars at night?

 

[dad]

Why are you still drawing attention to the fact that you have no evidence? If there's evidence, present it. If not, shush.

Ghosts are not solid. Spiritual things have other evidence. That means if all you want to limit yourself to, is solid science, you can't do spirits. The carnally minded man, naturally, comes up with the best explanations he can, from physical only things, nothing wrong with that. But you need to stay in your fishbowl, if all you use is fishbowl science.

I am indeed assuming it was just feelings - because all the described was feelings.

Right, that's fine, it is an area out of your depth. Don't worry about it.

"Others have had their lives changed by their moon walks. Bean shows off some of his paintings, most of them with moon-landing themes. Eugene Cernan says it “was not a religious experience, but a spiritual experience.” Edgar Mitchell felt he had an epiphany of spirituality as he touched down and lectures on it."
http://www.projo.com/movie_reviews//lb_wonderofitall_08-10-07_LF6MHO9.1f8d693.html

So, for Christians, it was a spiritual experience, and also for others! That is pretty spiritual.

"It was somewhat of a spiritual experience in that watching the Earth, it didn't just tumble through space. It moved with grace and purpose. The sight was like sitting on God's front porch."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20010805/ai_n13914155

"

Charles Duke, who followed Irwin to the moon, later became active in missionary work. As he explained, "I make speeches about walking ON the moon and walking WITH the Son [of God]." Guy Gardner is a veteran astronaut who speaks in churches on the reality of God.​

​

...

As the psalmist put it: "The heavens declare the glory of God." Or as John Glenn put it just a few days ago as he observed the heavens and earth from the windows of Discovery: "To look out at this kind of creation and not believe in God is to me impossible. It just strengthens my faith."

​

http://www.actsweb.org/articles/article.php?i=17&d=1&c=1&p=1
The evidence seems to suggest that lives were greatly impacted, and not just some shallow touchy feely mind game thingie.

I don't care about your transparent gold, or ....

Well, I don't care about your transparent fishbowl. So there.

So there's no way of telling them apart. As I thought.

Depends on who is doing the telling.

The best. The most parsimonious.

If you define lacking all known spiritual experience and reality of mankind as parsimonious, maybe! I suppose you would find an ostrich very parsimonious!

Unless you are a creationist, in which case it does.

No more than climbing Ararat half a dozen times ark hunting!

And many of the few were white, as well. So?

And almost all were impacted one way or the other in a big way spiritually. The bit about quite a percentage of Christians might be God's doing. If He had something going on inside the moon, He may be a little sensitive as to who may walk there.

Because you're looking for a pattern where we already have a perfectly good one.

I look at facts, and if there is some pattern all the better.

Let S = Spirit, and M = mountain.
Suppose for a contradiction, M --> S. But, M ^ ¬S --> S. So ¬S --> S, which is a contradiction. So M ^ ¬S. QED.
If you can prove that there are no invisible elephants in your wardrobe, I'll explain the proof.

Try explaining your point first.

Exactly. We have two explanations - one natural, one unnatural. When we see something happen, we always assume that something natural caused it. When a ball bounces, we don't decide that fairies caused it, or spirits, or whatever. Same here. There is a plausible natural explanation, so we use that.

You admit seeking natural only answers. That's nice. Why you seek them for no natural things is another matter.

So you're assuming that even the astronauts who didn't say they were affected, were affected. Right.

Who might they be??

And yet you've not presented any of this evidence here? All you've said is that people didn't write down that they floated off - but gravity could still have been quite different. So you have no evidence, just an assumption.

I'll leave you to grapple with the reality of gravity. All the best with that.

I can imagine - "would you like to see my flying throne?"

Yes.

The fact that you can't appreciate that the moon would be an amazing place to go, and not in the least bit boring, tells me that you are probably less spiritual than most atheists. Do you never get a sense of awe just looking up at the stars at night?

You seem to feel that the definition of spiritual is nature appreciation. I guess the tree hugger really epitomizes a spiritual person for you? I find the eyes of some people more spiritual than the dust of the moon. The observed effects of the bible over time, more spiritual, than hugging a tree. The amazing fulfilled prophesies in the bible, more spiritual than even the big dipper. Although the heavens do declare His wonders as well.

Did you hear about the small plane that grazed a big truck on the highway? It resulted in a big wreck, and a lot of smoke, and dust. Years later, a little Ferrari had formed, it was in great shape, just a little rust, and a dented fender. That is a lot more believable than the latest moon 'creation' story.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Prove it.

I don't need to "prove" that people didn't live to be 900 years old. The idea is absurd. You prove that it isn't.

How would I know?? He is up there somewhere, as is heaven, and departed believers. To think some could not use the moon as a base seems pretty baseless to me. Work on that.

You made a lame case, and are over ruled. All your fantasies are set to this nature universe. You have no science beyond this universe, face it.

I don't need science beyond this universe. The science of this universe shows that you are spouting nonsense as always.

Well, prove it!! Your claim that the bible is wrong is hollow, and empty. Water did come up, we are told, why believe you??

We have already discussed a mass of data that shows that your interpretation of the Bible is wrong. Mist forms by condensation from air. Mist doesn't come from the earth.

Prove it.

You have proven that you have revenge fantasies for me. All someone needs do is read your post to see it.

We may know that a child will get sick if they disobey, but, it still can be upsetting when they do. He was upset we blew it, but He was not about to be defeated. He always wins. He had to save the good men, and change some things, (like the universe!) to get us back on track, so Jesus could come.

According to the Bible He repented of his creation. Repented means He blew it. He made a mistake and He repented of it. Twist and turn all you like your intepretation of Genesis makes God out to be a blunderer.

Not me. I think it was just angels having fun. I think many churches feel sex is bad, so the whole thing had to be bad as well, and it had to be bad angels! I don't see why.

So great evil was created by angels having fun? That is not what the Bible says. It says the sons of God mated with the daughters of men. I guess it isn't literally true after all is it?

 

[consol]

I have just finished reading, and the first thing that strikes me is that Dad is happy,
he has reached a place that ensures he will also die happy, all he can see is his God,
the fact that he is off his trolly is of no consequence, he is happy with his God,
I bet a lot of Christians wish they were that fulfilled, or could reach that state.

But I think he should stop posting here, (not for our benifit)
but because new or young Christians could be put off by reading some of his mind blowing ramblings,
afraid they might need to get as bad as he is before they get to his state of happiness with their God.

I also feel that the slightest thing could push him over the edge, which would be a shame.

 

[dad]

I have just finished reading, and the first thing that strikes me is that Dad is happy,
he has reached a place that ensures he will also die happy, all he can see is his God,
the fact that he is off his trolly is of no consequence, he is happy with his God,
I bet a lot of Christians wish they were that fulfilled, or could reach that state.

But I think he should stop posting here, (not for our benifit)
but because new or young Christians could be put off by reading some of his mind blowing ramblings,
afraid they might need to get as bad as he is before they get to his state of happiness with their God.

I also feel that the slightest thing could push him over the edge, which would be a shame.

Ha. So here we have a declared atheist who claims a concern for young Christians, and how they might be 'put off'!! Your concern is touching.
You may need to challenge your own sanity, and ask whether my confidence comes from some wackiness, or the experience of knowing scientists have nothing they can say about their blind faith in the natural we know, extending into the unknown.

 

[dad]

I don't need to "prove" that people didn't live to be 900 years old. The idea is absurd. You prove that it isn't.

Then don't claim they didn't. Try to stick to what you know at least something about, rather than making wild claims. Since you never answered, I suppose I could guess as to how such a devil's advocate could claim to believe in 'God'.. It can't be Christian, your ramblings and doubts are just too anti Christ for that. That likely leaves Muslim or Jew. From all you have said, I think we can rule out muslim.

Shalom.

I don't need science beyond this universe.

Not unless you start jabbering about things out of your fishbowl.

The science of this universe shows that you are spouting nonsense as always.

In other words the truth of God and the bible past and future does not fit in your silly little fishbowl. No, I would hope not.

We have already discussed a mass of data that shows that your interpretation of the Bible is wrong. Mist forms by condensation from air. Mist doesn't come from the earth.

Mist in the modern sense forms a certain way, but that matters not to the past unless you prove it was the same state universe. You can't do that.

You have proven that you have revenge fantasies for me. All someone needs do is read your post to see it.

I have no fantasies, were were talking about the bible. I am not sure what you are dreaming anyone needs revenge against you for. Maybe you flatter yourself. I pointed out your horrible little accusations against the Almighty had no truth to them. You see God as some evil monster, because you could not know Him. Otherwise you would have to know that His mercy endures forever, and that He is Love. The things that seem harsh that He did, were all done in love. Your inability to see that speaks volumes about you, not Him. That is just the way it is. No matter how desperate you may be to point the finger.

According to the Bible He repented of his creation. Repented means He blew it. He made a mistake and He repented of it. Twist and turn all you like your intepretation of Genesis makes God out to be a blunderer.

He may have wished He did not make wicked man for a moment. I would have as well. They were as wicked as wicked could be. Disgusting. Vile, depraved, and violent, and murderers, etc. But, though for a small moment, He felt like that, with everlasting kindnesses He still saved us.

So great evil was created by angels having fun?

What evil was that??? All I read was that they married and had some babies. Is that so bad???

That is not what the Bible says. It says the sons of God mated with the daughters of men. I guess it isn't literally true after all is it?

Sons of God are another way angels were called. Why would it not be true, that, before the split, they mingled and married??? Of course they did. They were right here, nearby. Man even tried to build a tower up to the spiritual level.

 

[FishFace]

Ghosts are not solid. Spiritual things have other evidence. That means if all you want to limit yourself to, is solid science, you can't do spirits. The carnally minded man, naturally, comes up with the best explanations he can, from physical only things, nothing wrong with that. But you need to stay in your fishbowl, if all you use is fishbowl science.

Still no evidence! Hehe!

"Others have had their lives changed by their moon walks. Bean shows off some of his paintings, most of them with moon-landing themes. Eugene Cernan says it “was not a religious experience, but a spiritual experience.” Edgar Mitchell felt he had an epiphany of spirituality as he touched down and lectures on it."

He describes a feeling, here.
http://www.projo.com/movie_reviews//lb_wonderofitall_08-10-07_LF6MHO9.1f8d693.html

So, for Christians, it was a spiritual experience, and also for others! That is pretty spiritual.

Do you have any idea what they mean by this? Tell me what you think they mean.

"It was somewhat of a spiritual experience in that watching the Earth, it didn't just tumble through space. It moved with grace and purpose. The sight was like sitting on God's front porch."

I know literature can't be a literalists forté, but you should at least be able to recognise metaphor and simile when you see it.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20010805/ai_n13914155

Charles Duke, who followed Irwin to the moon, later became active in missionary work. As he explained, "I make speeches about walking ON the moon and walking WITH the Son [of God]." Guy Gardner is a veteran astronaut who speaks in churches on the reality of God.

Great. You've proved nothing except what we already knew.

The evidence seems to suggest that lives were greatly impacted, and not just some shallow touchy feely mind game thingie.

Again, it is you who are in over your head! Of course their lives were changed; they went to the bleedin' moon.

Depends on who is doing the telling.

Fine, there's no objective way of telling - it's just as bad.

If you define lacking all known spiritual experience and reality of mankind as parsimonious, maybe!

It's nothing to do with definition - if we don't need to use the supernatural, we shouldn't. Ockham's razor is wonderful.

No more than climbing Ararat half a dozen times ark hunting!

Yes, that would probably put one in the dark ages.

And almost all were impacted one way or the other in a big way spiritually.

You clearly don't understand the different meanings of the word spiritual.

The bit about quite a percentage of Christians might be God's doing.

But it might not be. And, since there's a perfectly good alternative explanation, I'm not going with your craziness.

Try explaining your point first.

You've got no proof that there are no invisible elephants in your wardrobe, I guess there's no need to explain my proof that there are no spirits under mountains.

You admit seeking natural only answers. That's nice. Why you seek them for no natural things is another matter.

What thing is not natural here? You don't have anything that is anything but physical - you have physical men who had felt something in there physical body, and then went out and decided to do physical things in the physical world.

I'll leave you to grapple with the reality of gravity. All the best with that.

And I'll leave you to grapple with the rest of physics. You can't prove that anything was the same in the past - as you've just demonstrated. You have to assume it. And you assume it just like us.

You seem to feel that the definition of spiritual is nature appreciation.

Nature can be incredibly spiritual.

Did you hear about the small plane that grazed a big truck on the highway? It resulted in a big wreck, and a lot of smoke, and dust. Years later, a little Ferrari had formed, it was in great shape, just a little rust, and a dented fender. That is a lot more believable than the latest moon 'creation' story.

It's a good thing that the Earth and Theia were planets, then, and not vehicles. Planets are very big and made of rock. When they smash into each other they melt and spit bits of rock into space, they don't dent.

 

[consol]

Ha. So here we have a declared atheist who claims a concern for young Christians, and how they might be 'put off'!! Your concern is touching.
You may need to challenge your own sanity, and ask whether my confidence comes from some wackiness, or the experience of knowing scientists have nothing they can say about their blind faith in the natural we know, extending into the unknown.

I am not concerned in the least, I just thought you or other Christians might be,
after all, to let them see what they themselves might turn out to be, might be slightly off putting.

My own sanity thankfully is not in question here, I do not see or imagine things in my head as do you,
my feet are firmly on the ground, not up in space looking for imaginary Gods and spirits to worship,
and I am happy in my ignorance of all that your God has to offer me, thank you.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Then don't claim they didn't. Try to stick to what you know at least something about, rather than making wild claims.

I am not the one making wild clams here.

Since you never answered, I suppose I could guess as to how such a devil's advocate could claim to believe in 'God'.. It can't be Christian, your ramblings and doubts are just too anti Christ for that. That likely leaves Muslim or Jew. From all you have said, I think we can rule out muslim.

Ah the no True Scotsman fallacy again. I suppose it comfort to you to think that a reason that people don't share you beliefs is that they are "anti-Christ". Not true. The reason that people don't share you belief in a young earth and global flood is that this specific intepretation of scripture is both unnecessary to Christianity and falsified by science. The reason that no one accepts the other nonsense you throw out such as spirits living in the moon and no gravity before the flood is that your split/merge beliefs are totally wacko.

Not unless you start jabbering about things out of your fishbowl.

Ah the fishbowl again. Another favorite bit of nonsense. You can try to live in a different universe that exists only in your mind if you want to. Don't expect others to share your delusion.

In other words the truth of God and the bible past and future does not fit in your silly little fishbowl. No, I would hope not.

In other words you can't tell fantasy from reality.

Mist in the modern sense forms a certain way, but that matters not to the past unless you prove it was the same state universe. You can't do that.

In other words you can't tell fantasy from reality.

I have no fantasies,

were were talking about the bible. I am not sure what you are dreaming anyone needs revenge against you for. Maybe you flatter yourself. I pointed out your horrible little accusations against the Almighty had no truth to them.

I am not the one making these accusations. You are.

You see God as some evil monster, because you could not know Him.

WRONG. It is your interpetation of scripture that makes God out to be an evil monster.

Otherwise you would have to know that His mercy endures forever, and that He is Love. The things that seem harsh that He did, were all done in love. Your inability to see that speaks volumes about you, not Him. That is just the way it is. No matter how desperate you may be to point the finger.

I don't see drowing the world with a flood or ordering the anhilation of men, women children, infants and animals or any of the other Biblical atrocities as things done in love but I don't think they happened at all. The Hebrews committed genocide and then said "God made me do it".

He may have wished He did not make wicked man for a moment. I would have as well.

In other words he realized that He had blundered. Thanks

They were as wicked as wicked could be. Disgusting. Vile, depraved, and violent, and murderers, etc. But, though for a small moment, He felt like that, with everlasting kindnesses He still saved us.

And yet he created them didn't He. In your interpretation He blundered. You make God out to be a blunderer as well as an evil monster. And then you have the nerve to claim that people who don't believe your intepretation and don't believe God is an evil blundering monster are "anti-God".

What evil was that??? All I read was that they married and had some babies. Is that so bad???

Gee that's not what AV told us. He directly attributed lots of evil to the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. Maybe you two should get together and get your stories straight.

Sons of God are another way angels were called.

Yeah AV says the same thing but why weren't they called angels? Why were the called the sons of God if they were not the sons of God? So why is the verse lying to us?

Why would it not be true, that, before the split, they mingled and married???

The "split" is your unique fantasy. It exists only in your head and nowhere else.

Of course they did. They were right here, nearby. Man even tried to build a tower up to the spiritual level.

So you think heaven was so close to earth that they could have actually built a tower up to it?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Then don't claim they didn't. Try to stick to what you know at least something about, rather than making wild claims.

Not unless you start jabbering about things out of your fishbowl.

WHY WON'T THIS DEBATE TACTIC DIE????

Kill it! Make it go away!!! It threatens to suck the thought out of all subsequent debates!!! It's back and it won't stop for a loong looooong time!

In other words the truth of God and the bible past and future does not fit in your silly little fishbowl. No, I would hope not.
Mist in the modern sense forms a certain way, but that matters not to the past unless you prove it was the same state universe. You can't do that.

The UNDEAD THREAD! Different past different past different past!

AAAAAA!!!

Maybe you flatter yourself.

HE NEVER CHANGES!!! He's back with the exact same lines and exact same comments! It is as if he is incapable of learning, changing, growing!!!

I pointed out your horrible little accusations against the Almighty had no truth to them. You see God as some evil monster, because you could not know Him.

[

And if Frumy had been an Amalekite child he wouldn't have gotten much of a chance to "know" God's tender loving mercy.

[BIBLE]1 Samuel 15:3[/BIBLE]

 

[Nitron]

Why do you guys get so uptight about dad? He's funny (unlike AHTPOJN or GentleChristianMommy), just laugh along!

 

[dad]

WHY WON'T THIS DEBATE TACTIC DIE????

Kill it! Make it go away!!! It threatens to suck the thought out of all subsequent debates!!! It's back and it won't stop for a loong looooong time!

Try to kill what you can't win in debate, eh. Quite a tactic there.

The UNDEAD THREAD! Different past different past different past!

AAAAAA!!!

I know you like to pretend for no reason it was the same. Tough. You will stay busted. Enjoy.

HE NEVER CHANGES!!! He's back with the exact same lines and exact same comments! It is as if he is incapable of learning, changing, growing!!!

You need to realize that you need to do some learning.

And if Frumy had been an Amalekite child he wouldn't have gotten much of a chance to "know" God's tender loving mercy.

Ah, another one with an ax to grind against God. I see the reason for your rage. Tough. Those that do not know Him, and His love, must look to fear. That is fine, and is a good place to start.


Pr 9:10 - The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.