• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Moon was Created

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
39
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Um ... was there an answer in here somewhere? I asked what evidence you would use to convince your friend. Any explanation AGAINST me doing it would be wrong, would it not? If you told your friend I did this, and she didn't believe you, she would be wrong; simple as that. Therefore, I'm asking what evidence you would use to at least try and convince her I did this.



That's cute, EP; but that's not in the KJV 1[sup]st[/sup] edition, so we'll have to excuse you on that one.

It is, however, in the 1560 Geneva Bible (that I got for Christmas); but that's not the one I gave you.
Huh?

OK... let me try again... for all intents and purposes... any theory is valid until contrary evidence is presented... in the scientific sense that is.

So... you show someone an apple, and say "this was created ex nihilo just now" then, until such time as someone presents evidence to the contrary, we can work under the assumption that the apple WAS in fact, created ex nihilo just now.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Well, if you want to show that the assumption is wrong, by all means go for it.
If you would like to show that the Tooth Fairy is wrong, by all means go for it.Meanwhile, I will proceed after the assumptions are shown to be valid, especially if it is supposed to be science fact.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So Irwin went to the moon. And he also started preaching and climbing mountains. Do you have any evidence of cause and effect?
I think so, the man admitted as much! Look at the OP again, it's right in there. He said something about having his life affected so much, that he dedicated himself much much much more to Jesus. That is an effect. Now, looking at the effect, one should have some clue as to the cause.

I'm hardly surprised that going to the moon changed people's lives. It signifies nothing.
A changed life has to count for something. The moon is known to have some influence historically on man. It doesn't make any sense, if all that is at work was a piece of rock up there. Spiritual effects need a spiritual cause.


Sure. So what evidence do you have that spirits in the moon were the cause? None at all.
What kind of evidence do you want, science? Well, at the time of the moon landings, that was, I think, the height of man's science, or part of it. It was not some priests that claimed powerful influences there, it was men of science, or at least men of some science. If one is affected by gravity, one can deduce an object of some mass caused it. If one is affected by things spiritual, one deduces that spiritual things had to be behind it.
The spiritual source of the effect needed to be close at hand, since it was on the moon that the effect was strongest.


Because the moon was formed when a large piece of rock hit the earth, forming a molten blob of rock in space, which became the moon.
Fairy tale. In fact, it is an insult to intelligence. The object almost as big as earth, I think it was, had to hit the earth just right, so as not to destroy everything, graze it just right, then go about poofing in all the right ways into a moon. Utterly ridiculous. They cooked that up using PO past assumption myth, and an advanced computer!!!

You're still assuming that gravity worked the same 200 years ago. You have no evidence for it.
Abraham Lincoln didn't fly off into space. Relax.


Get this: they went to the moon. Of course they had a life-changing experience - no spirits required.
Why is that?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We are not laughing at the Bible or God perhaps you are confusing yourself in your delusion. We are laughing at the idea that there are men in the moon.
Well, there is no need to accept that, I don't know, I simply look at biblical indications. As mentioned, Jesus went UP somewhere. Where we don't know. How do we rule out the moon? Because He is not on the surface? How about spirits under the earth? Is that a belly burster as well? Personal incredulity doesn't cut it.

Who said I don't believe in God. It only the bungling capricious God of the Old Testament Biblical literalitsts I don't believe in.
Well, this could be interesting, I consider you like Mr. worldly wise man, in the book Pilgrim's Progress. Someone that seems wise in the ways and knowledge of the world, yet who always seem to play the devil's advocate. Always seems to be on the side of doubt, and against the bible as any sort of true book, etc.
Tell us about your faith. Are you a Christian? A Jew? or....???

Your interpretation the the Bible is not God and it is wrong. End of story.
So, let me get this right, every thing I ever thought the bible meant, about any area, is all wrong?


1 Samuel 15:3 (King James Version)

This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass

Some love, whooosh indeed.
See what I mean? There you go again. God, in the wild and woolly violent past, needed His people to destroy some wicked people. So wicked, apparently, that their kids could not even be spared. Do you consider that God did this in love for man, like cutting out a cancer, so all the body does not die? No. Do you consider that they were so possessed, and maybe practiced bestiality etc, that the animals could not be spared? Or maybe there was serious disease in them as a result of some other wickedness? No, you try to point the finger at God.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

If he hadn't "messed" why did he repent what he did. I think you are the one who is confused.

Man is still here, and always will be!!! How messed is that!? The great gift of real freedom of will, and choice that we exercised so far the wrong way, we had to be stopped did grieve Him, but He always wins in the end.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
....

Two anencephalic street preachers who would lovingly destroy science, philosophy and human thought to replace it with their own disorganized ramblings.
I can't speak for Avi, but I am not a street preacher, your accusations are false. Science has nothing to do with most of the things having to do with the creation debate. So, no need to destroy that. The silly, vile, so called science that exalts itself against God does need to be attacked, and destroyed.
You say we are out to get 'philosophy'. The philosophy that has men as mere beasts, and doomed to simply die, and that there is no God, is a dog eat dog philosophy that should not rule men.
As for human thought, the beauty, and purpose, and mercy, and hope, and compassion of the Christian outlook is the creme de la creme of human thought.


Make sure to encourage your children to read their stuff so that you can more thoroughly convince them that they need to stay in school, get an education, and most importantly, pay attention to the world around them.

Thanks for the preaching there. That all you got? Try a religion section of the forum.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,322
52,686
Guam
✟5,166,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
EP, I thought you wanted to take a crack at my Apple Challenge. All you're doing is ignoring it as it was written, then making counterpoints to something that's not even there.

Here it is --- once again:
  • I create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.
  • What evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?
Now let's parse your reply:

So... you show someone an apple...

No, I didn't "show someone an apple." I created an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

...and say "this was created ex nihilo just now"...

Not one word is spoken in my challenge.

...then, until such time as someone presents evidence to the contrary, we can work under the assumption that the apple WAS in fact, created ex nihilo just now.

I don't even understand what you just said. You seem to be invoking a fourth party here --- or something.

I'm going to assume that you're not taking my challenge seriously enough to honestly critique it. But don't worry --- no one else is either.

I consider this Apple Challenge to be my best point ever conceived.
 
Upvote 0

MrGoodBytes

Seeker for life, probably
Mar 4, 2006
5,868
286
✟30,272.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
I consider this Apple Challenge to be my best point ever conceived.
That says more about your other points than it does about the challenge.

Loudmouth asked a very good question about it, which I think highlights the entire problem of your theology: does the apple have a stem?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,322
52,686
Guam
✟5,166,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That says more about your other points than it does about the challenge.

Loudmouth asked a very good question about it, which I think highlights the entire problem of your theology: does the apple have a stem?

Stem, calyx, core, seeds, peel, pulp, juice; the whole enchilada ... er ... apple.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,322
52,686
Guam
✟5,166,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So you deliberately created an apple that looks just like it came from a tree?

MrGoodBytes, I'm not gonna sit here and answer questions about my own challenge. You're filibustering. Care to answer it? If an apple is too hard for you to comprehend, then simply make it a snowball, rock, Tonka Toy truck, candy cane, toothpick, piece of chewing gum, lock of hair, an old shoe, a new shoe, a button, a bow, a billiard ball --- something. Just answer it, please.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,322
52,686
Guam
✟5,166,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Please, don't get into AV's stupid apple challenge in this thread - it has its own thread. This thread is about dad's laughable spirits in the moon idea. One insanity per thread, please.

Bellman, have you noticed that your avatar contradicts your faith icon?
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
79
Visit site
✟30,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
Well, there is no need to accept that, I don't know, I simply look at biblical indications. As mentioned, Jesus went UP somewhere. Where we don't know. How do we rule out the moon? Because He is not on the surface? How about spirits under the earth? Is that a belly burster as well? Personal incredulity doesn't cut it.
:D :D :D

So, let me get this right, every thing I ever thought the bible meant, about any area, is all wrong?
Not necessarily everything but your interpretation that that requires the earth to be 6,100 years old and puts a global flood less that 5000 years is wrong and your "different past" fantasies aren't even Biblical, just fantasies.


See what I mean? There you go again. God, in the wild and woolly violent past, needed His people to destroy some wicked people. So wicked, apparently, that their kids could not even be spared. Do you consider that God did this in love for man, like cutting out a cancer, so all the body does not die? No. Do you consider that they were so possessed, and maybe practiced bestiality etc, that the animals could not be spared? Or maybe there was serious disease in them as a result of some other wickedness? No, you try to point the finger at God.
God supposedly ordered this massacre of men, women, children, infants and even animals. The twisted apologetics that Biblical Literalists under take to try to explain away this atrocity are just an example of how Biblical literalism destroys rational thought.

Man is still here, and always will be!!! How messed is that!? The great gift of real freedom of will, and choice that we exercised so far the wrong way, we had to be stopped did grieve Him, but He always wins in the end.
What part of repented don't you understand.
 
Upvote 0

MrGoodBytes

Seeker for life, probably
Mar 4, 2006
5,868
286
✟30,272.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
MrGoodBytes, I'm not gonna sit here and answer questions about my own challenge.
:D Heaven forbid!

You're filibustering. Care to answer it? If an apple is too hard for you to comprehend, then simply make it a snowball, rock, Tonka Toy truck, candy cane, toothpick, piece of chewing gum, lock of hair, an old shoe, a new shoe, a button, a bow, a billiard ball --- something. Just answer it, please.
I was going to say "do it again and videotape it this time", but then I realized that this would make your challenge actually mean something and we can't have that, can we. My answer is that there is no evidence. Of course, that is only valid if you deliberately choose not to include something that distinguishes this particular apple from another one that grew naturally.

Derail over. Sorry, Bellman.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,322
52,686
Guam
✟5,166,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I was going to say "do it again and videotape it this time"...

???

Didn't we already discuss what would happen if we did that? Now I'm beginning to suspect you are more than one user.
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
79
Visit site
✟30,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
Stem, calyx, core, seeds, peel, pulp, juice; the whole enchilada ... er ... apple.
So it is an Omphalos Apple. It has the apearance of having grown on a tree but it didn't. You are able to deceive people into thinking it grew on a tree. This "challenge" shows that for all your protests you really do subsrcibe to the Omphalos hypothesis. It's nice that you have finally admited it.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,322
52,686
Guam
✟5,166,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So it is an Omphalos Apple.

I suppose so --- by definition anyway.

It has the apearance of having grown on a tree but it didn't.

That's right. The only place in the universe it ever resided was in the palm of your hand.

You are able to deceive people into thinking it grew on a tree.

I don't know what you mean by "people," as you and I are the only two present - (and a soon-to-be third party) - and you, of course, would not have been deceived - neither would I.

This "challenge" shows that for all your protests you really do subsrcibe to the Omphalos hypothesis.

If you want to say that the trees in Genesis 1 had leaves, etc., and limit your definition of Omphalos to just that, then by all means, go ahead. But you're taking this off-topic - (as usual).

It's nice that you have finally admited it.

Okie-doke --- now, about my Apple Challenge ...
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,322
52,686
Guam
✟5,166,709.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Here it is --- once again:
  • I create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.
  • What evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?
My answer is that there is no evidence.

Your answer does not fit the question; but I guess this is as close as I'm going to get to an honest answer from an atheist.

In this case then, I submit that there is no evidence for the Creation; even though the Creation occurred as documented.
 
Upvote 0

Psudopod

Godspeed, Spacebat
Apr 11, 2006
3,015
164
Bath
✟26,638.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
In Relationship
In this case then, I submit that there is no evidence for the Creation; even though the Creation occurred as documented.


No evidence for creation, fine. No problem. If there is no evidence, then we can only go with what we do have evidence for. The earth may well ahve been created 6000 years ago, but if it was, it was created with the appearence of having 4.6 billion years of history.

So it doesn't really matter if it was created 6000 years ago. We'll never get any useful understanding from that.
 
Upvote 0