Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
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Well, exploring Christianity might involve some difficult questions. I'm not debating in order to win an argument, I'm asking about things that are not making sense.
If it is a debate, then it's a debate I'm happy to lose so long as I can experience the truth as a reality.
I get the sense again that you just need to experience it.

All Christians still have a physical body, this has the capacity to interact with the libido awakening that we were discussing earlier.

However, those who have been born again by the Holy Spirit also interact with the spiritual reality of the kingdom of God since their spirit has been renewed.

Since it's not common to have a revived spirit since the beginning of humanity as we know it, it's like starting at childhood again in that sense. Interacting with this new reality takes time. Knowing what you're looking at takes time also.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

The non-Trinitarian parsing of the Greek of John 1:1 sounds reasonable on first impression. But it simply doesn't mesh with how Greek grammar and sentence construction works.

The reason why there is no definite article for Theos is because the definite article is attached to Logos; as such while a literal word for word translation would be "God was the Logos" that simply isn't how it works grammatically. The Logos is the subject, and is being identified with the word Theos, hence "the Logos was God". And it is not "the Logos was a god", because the whole construction of the text is to identify the Logos as both with God and Himself God.

Thus the Logos is with God and is God. Which is consistently how the Christian Church has taken it. Even the heretics, such as Arius, didn't say otherwise on this.

For Arius the Deity of the Son was true, but because of his fear of Modalism he refused to say that the Son was of the same Being (Greek: homoousios) with the Father. And so Arius ended up having to deny Monotheism and introduced a kind of Ditheism--a belief in two Gods. For Arius there was the Uncreated and Unbegotten God, the Father; and there was the second God, the Logos, a lesser God created by the Father as the intermediary agent of creation.

For this reason the Arians could say "Therefore there is one God of all, who is also God of our God," (Creed of Ulfilas as preserved in the letter of his disciple Auxentius).

What the Council of Nicea did was simultaneously address the problem with the views of Arius (and those like him) as well as reject the earlier errors of the Sabellians and Adoptionists. The council fathers did this by being very careful in their language, by asserting that the Son and Logos is truly God by His eternal generation from the Father as God of God. The Son is not a creature, but Uncreated; hence they said He is "begotten, not made". His generation (that is, His being begotten) is not something that occurs within time, but is instead said to be "before all ages", that is, before time, outside of time, it is eternal. Thus the Son never came into existence, but rather eternally has His Essence from the Father; as God of God, homoousios, of the same Being, with the Father.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?

It really depends on the purposes the Evangelists had. The Synoptics don't focus very hard on Christology (it's there, but it's not the main point); whereas the Gospel of John is very much Christological. And that's because the Gospel of John is very likely intended to be more theological. Specifically, it is anti-Docetic.

What is often surprising to many is that the earliest theological controversies we see in the history of Christianity don't involve the question of whether Jesus was God or divine; but rather the earliest controversies denied that Jesus was a human being.

The Gospel of John certainly asserts, quite loudly, the divinity of the Son of God as the Uncreated Logos; but it also focuses heavily on the fact that Jesus as the Logos and Son became flesh, became human. Thus it is in John's Gospel that we have Jesus weeping over the tomb of Lazarus, and as inviting the doubting Thomas to touch and feel the wounds of crucifixion on His hands and side. In a similar way, the Epistles of St. John focus strongly on the humanity and flesh of Jesus; they are arguing very strongly against early Docetism.

We see the same things in the letters of St. Ignatius, who very much confesses Christ as God, but speaks strongly of the heretics who deny the true flesh of Christ. The same is true as we look at the other early fathers of the 2nd century.

It isn't until near the very end of the 2nd century, and especially in the 3rd century, that we see debates over the divinity of Christ; and even here that Christ is Divine is never really challenged. Rather the debates were over what it means to confess that Christ is God. What does it mean for Jesus to be Divine?

There were groups that thoroughly rejected Christ's Divinity (the Ebionites come to mind here), but these were never taken as seriously as those that denied Christ's humanity and the various debates over what Christ's Divinity means.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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If by hearsay, you mean somebody told me, then yes.
But you seem to use that as reason to dismiss what is said and not address it...
Which, btw, is typical of what I've been told!
I'm not attacking the whole organisation, you might be a very good organisation... But if somebody tells me that they had a bad experience and you can't discuss the possibility that it might be true, then how can accusations ever be addressed.
I'm a Buddhist, and it's a fact that there have been problems in some otherwise decent Buddhist organisations.
Look at the Roman Catholic Church... It's been difficult for them to be open about problems, and that made the problems worse...
All organisations can have problems... Why dismiss what my friend had told me in such a dismissive and casual way. Be real!
 
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Rachel20

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It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

What concept of God "taught from the beginning of time" are you referring to? If you check out Wilhelm Schmidt's book below, you may be surprised at the evidence for monotheism being the original concept:

https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Growth-Religion-Wilhelm-Schmidt/dp/0990738604

If you're referring to Judaism's concept of God, Alan Segal has shown that 2nd Temple era Rabbis actually taught there were 2 powers of heaven - separate yet one - which is basically a Godhead teaching from the Old Testament.

https://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-Heaven-Christianity-Christology/dp/1602585490

Dr Heiser covers the nuances of scripture that led to the two powers rabbinic teaching:

 
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ViaCrucis

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staff edit

Every organization made up of human beings is going to have problems. Even the Roman Catholic Church with its incredibly large and bold claims about having an infallible Pope and Magisterium can admit to human error and the need to address problems.

Indeed, a sign of a healthy religious faith is a willingness to be conscientious of these things, and to be able to criticize our organizations and leaders when they are in the wrong.

If you feel the need to deny and invalidate the experiences of abuse as reported by some in order to defend your religious institution, perhaps evaluate why this is.

Are you allowed to be critical?
Do you have the freedom to think critically?
If not, why not?

God is not a tyrant, and a faithful church that is of God should not behave tyrannically.

"A religion that cannot laugh at itself is a cult." - Ole Anthony of the Trinity Foundation

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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May I also add, The one who is not prepared to stand and defend against uncorroborated, unverifiable derogatory false statements about others, does not stand on the side of truth or of God.

LB

No one has an obligation to share private details about the people they know, that is a matter of personal privacy.

If I told you that I knew someone who experienced sexual assault when they were younger, I'd be under no obligation to share any details about that, and it would also be a betrayal of trust. If someone then said, "That can't be true", what is the appropriate response? "Well sorry if you don't believe me".

Just so we're clear, are you going to try and argue that it is impossible for someone to have had a very negative experience with your religious organization?

Because if someone told me that they suffered something pretty bad from the ELCA--the denomination of which I am a member--I'd like to think that I'd acknowledge that experience as valid, and to then say that this was wrong of what happened, and things should change and be better.

But it is rather shocking--if not rather appalling--that you would prefer to accuse someone of being a liar solely on the basis that they claim to know someone who had a bad experience, and then refused to share intimate and personal details with you, a total stranger on the internet.

And don't try to hide behind God on this. That is thoroughly unacceptable.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hawkins

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?

To know God's Trinity is rather an acknowledgment from God to those close enough to Him. It doesn't seem to be a requirement of salvation. Even to the earthly Church, the Apostles' Creed actually defines whether a church has the salvation power or not. So just follow the content of Apostles' Creed one shall be able to be saved.
 
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JulieB67

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God said let us make man in "our" image. Christ says, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Emmanuel is "God with us".

I pray and talk to the Father as Christ taught us, but I end it in Jesus's name to show I am a Christian because's it's through Christ that we attain our salvation. He died and paid the price.
 
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ViaCrucis

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it has no real value to me or anyone else for that matter.

It may have no value to you. It has tremendous value to the Christian Church. It's the faith once-and-for all delivered to the saints.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I suspect you may be letting your bias and prejudice be coloring things a bit. After all, there is certainly no shortage of those who point out inconsistencies and contradictions in the books of the Bible which you accept; however I am confident that you have already resolved in your own mind a rebuttal to such claims; and thus will argue confidently in the consistency and lack of any contradiction in the 66 books which you accept.

If your argument is "These books have contradictions" and "But these books don't"; and the chief rationale being simply that you have resolved to addressing accusations of contradiction in the books you accept; but easily accept the claim of contradictions in these other books then I suspect you are working from a framework of confirmation bias rather than objectivity.

I am well aware of St. Jerome's hesitancy in regard to the Deuterocanonicals. Indeed, Dr. Martin Luther likewise saw in Jerome precedent for questioning the authority of the Deuterocanonical books. That said, let's be clear, when we look at the patristic witness there are many opinions about many books.

Why does such diversity of opinion exist? Because the evolution and development of the Biblical Canon was an ongoing process.

However, I am quite confident that your appeal to Jerome is, again, merely a case of confirmation bias. After all, if I should present an ancient witness questioning one of the books you accept, it would mean nothing to you; and you would dismiss it as freely as you dismissed the Apostles' Creed.

I have been asking you questions in order to get you to step back and engage in a bit of critical thinking. I don't think that's working, as you want to simply pass the buck off to your religious organization's official website. I'm not interested in official Jehovah's Witness dogma, I am interested in engaging in a dialogue with you, a distinct person. To try and get you to try and explore questions honestly and more objectively.

Your statements of "internal consistency" and "external evidence" have no real meat behind them.

If you are honest with yourself you would admit that the reason you accept only the 66 books of the modern Protestant Canon is because that is the Bible the founders of your religious organization in the 19th century had and used, and which your organization continues to use.

There's nothing wrong with that.

All Christians use the Bible because of tradition. The books you accept you accept because you received them from those who came before you. You don't accept other books because those who gave you the tradition of a sixty-six book Canon of Scripture didn't accept any other books.

That's not unique to your religious tradition, that is a universally true statement for all groups that identify themselves as Christian. The reason why modern Protestants accept only 66 books is because their Protestant forebearers only accepted 66 books, based upon Martin Luther's translation of the German Bible and which was codified in early Protestant confessional texts such as the Westminster Confession and the 39 Articles of Religion. Later Protestant confessions likewise made similar statements, such as the 1689 London Baptist Confession, the Methodist 25 Articles of Religion, etc.

Charles Taze Russel, Joseph Rutherford, et al were simply working from within the broad religious milieu of 19th and early 20th century American Protestantism. And so the Protestant Bible, sans Deuterocanonicals, is what they--and ergo you--use.

What you are attempting to provide isn't much more than an ad hoc rationalization after the fact.

More to the point, however, is that the reason why you, or anyone else for that matter, has a Bible at all is because the ancient Church preserved and confessed certain books as Scripture through the general consensus and practice of Christianity.

There are four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John because those four were accepted as the only canonical Gospels to be read in gatherings of Christian worship--liturgy. Not other gospels, though other "gospel" texts did exist, even from fairly early on; and not just one Gospel text, but all four.

The acceptance of these four--and all four and only these four--happened very early on in the life of the Christian Church, by the mid-to-late 2nd century there is sufficient evidence of this, such as in the writings of St. Irenaeus (c. 180-190 AD). By around this time, there was already something of a proto-New Testament, the core books of the New Testament known as the Homolegomena, that is, the universally received and accepted books (homolegomena = "same books" or "books of the same" that is of equal and universal recognition and acceptance). These books are in distinction to the Antilegomena or "disputed books", which includes books such as Hebrews, 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude, James, and the Revelation of St. John; but also includes books such as The Shepherd, the Epistle of St. Clement to the Corinthians, the Didache, and the Epistle of Barnabas.

And debates over these books continued for quite some time. Our earliest biblical codices such as Sinaiticus contain Clement, but not Revelation. Later biblical codices likewise do not necessarily have a New Testament identical to our own. This is especially true in the case of early versions of the Syriac Peshitta or Armenian Bible. For example the Peshitta did not contain the Revelation until about the 8th century. And even into the high middle ages (IIRC) the Armenian Bible continued to include the spurious work known as 3 Corinthians.

Even in the Latin West some versions of the Vulgate contained the spurious letter of Paul to the Laodiceans, which is why John Wycliffe included Laodiceans in his translation of the Vulgate into English.

The Bible didn't fall out of the sky. The Bible came together, over time, through a growing and evolving consensus. Today we are the heirs of that tradition.

And this is therefore the heart of my original point: The tradition which gave us the Apostles' Creed is the same tradition that gave us the Bible. The Creed and the Scriptures, as received matters of Christian faith and practice, come from the same source.

If that source cannot be considered trustworthy whatsoever (say, if there were some sort of "Great Apostasy" in the past), then that renders everything from that source suspect.

If you can accept an "apostate Bible", but not an "apostate Creed", then the really essential question is: why?

And I'm not asking "why?" so you can parrot talking points at me, I'm asking why so that you can actually step back and think about the question.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The few verses that I highlighted in the book of Baruch go way beyond contradiction, it is outright false information and in opposition to the inspired writings of Jeremiah, as such, proves it has no part in the inspired and infallible word of God.

Alright, then which should I reject, the Gospel of Matthew or the Gospel of the Luke? Because in the Gospel of Matthew it says that Jesus' sermon in which He gave the Beatitudes was on a mount or hill, but in the Gospel of Luke it says that the same sermon which Jesus gave was on a plain.

I don't need to explain how a hill and a plain are different right? So clearly therefore one of them is wrong, and thus one of them doesn't belong in the Bible. So we need to determine which is correct, the Gospel of Matthew or the Gospel of Luke. Though, of course if we decide that the Gospel of Matthew is true, and the Gospel of Luke is false, that would also probably mean we'd need to also remove the Acts of the Apostles from the Bible since it's by the same erroneous author.

Also, in the letters of Paul he says that we are justified through faith apart from our efforts, but according to James in his letter one is not justified through faith only, but also by our own works. Which is it? Do we remove the letters of Paul and keep James, or do we remove the letter of James?

What difference is there between this and the matter concerning Baruch and the location of Jeremiah? Other than that you already reject Baruch and thus it agrees with your own confirmation bias?

Opinions are ten a penny. I don't base my trust in the Divine inspiration of the traditional 39 books of the Hebrew bible canon on opinion, but rather and foremost, on the internal evidence of Divine inspiration of those very books/scriptures themselves.

Do you likewise accept the divine inspiration of the Qu'ran because of its internal evidence of divine inspiration? My guess is that no, you don't.

You are being dishonest with yourself and simply using talking points.

They all support the authorship of Jehovah God and are in complete harmony. The harmony and balance of the Hebrew canonical books of the Bible testify to their unity and completeness. There would have to be nothing in any of the individual writings that would conflict with the internal harmony of the whole, but, rather, each book must, by its unity with the others, support the one authorship, that of Jehovah God. We would also expect the writings to give evidence of accuracy down to the smallest details. The specific book you highlighted and claim belongs in the Hebrew bible canon, the book of Baruch, fails miserably in this regard as has been clearly demonstrated. This is true of all the books of the Apocrypha, none comply or come close to these high standards.

Here's the thing, I know that's what you believe, but that really doesn't mean anything here. Since, again, it's no great difficulty to find inconsistencies in the Bible, or at the very least to find apparent inconsistencies. If you are okay with the inconsistencies in the 39 books of the Protocanonical books, because you can harmonize and rationalize those inconsistencies; but you are not okay with inconsistencies in the books of the Deuterocanonicals--then the issue is what's happening in your own mind, not with the objective, empirical reality of the texts themselves. Again, confirmation bias.

These additional writings are Tobit, Judith, Wisdom (of Solomon), Ecclesiasticus (not Ecclesiastes), Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, supplements to Esther, and three additions to Daniel: The Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna and the Elders, and The Destruction of Bel and the Dragon. The exact time of their being written is uncertain, but the evidence points to a time no earlier than the second or third century B.C.E.

And so was Daniel, what does that matter?

Really! The evidence points to a closing of the Hebrew canon (In which the books of the Apocrypha falsely attempt to belong) following the writing of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, and Malachi in the fifth century B.C.E. The Apocryphal writings (Evidently written centuries later) were never included in the Jewish canon of inspired Scriptures and do not form part of it today.

The existence of the Septugaint, and the fact that there was no "closing of the Hebrew canon" five hundred years before Christ definitely hurts your argument here. As the Jewish Canon was still in the process of being formed even in the century after Christ's resurrection. In the writings of the rabbis there are disagreements about books, for example the Song of Songs was one of the disputed books among the rabbis.

If you have evidence of a "closing of the Hebrew canon ... in the fifth century B.C.E" then you should probably present it.

Then again, its not just Jerome is it?

There were other so-called church fathers who were substantially agreed in accepting the established Jewish canon and in rejecting the Apocryphal books.

Examples of such men include:

Justin Martyr, Christian apologist (died c. 165 C.E.)

Melito, “bishop” of Sardis (2nd century C.E.)

Origen, Biblical scholar (185?-254? C.E.)

Hilary, “bishop” of Poitiers (died 367? C.E.)

Epiphanies, “bishop” of Constantia (from 367 C.E.)

Gregory Nazianzus (330?-389? C.E.)

Rufinus of Aquileia, “the learned Translator of Origen” (345?-410 C.E.);

Even Augustine (354-430 C.E.), who primarily initiated the trend towards including these books as canonical, in later works acknowledged that there was a definite distinction between the books of the Hebrew canon and such “outside books".

I also never said it was only Jerome, I mentioned differences of opinion among the fathers.

Not unless that witness could provide clear evidence from those very scriptures that they were uninspired, as has been clearly demonstrated with the uninspired book of Baruch.




I’ll bypass the Straw Man your trying to build.

Just to be absolutely clear, the reason, and the ONLY reason I accept the 66 traditional books of the bible canon is because through prayerful and thorough examination, and not other’s opinions, they and they alone give evidence and proof that they are Divinely inspired. Whereas, the Apocrypha give clear evidence and proof they are not.


Stay safe and well
LB


Ah, so therefore through much prayer and thorough examination, and not just the opinions of others, there is enough evidence for me to embrace the ancient Creeds of the Church, confessing my faith in one God, worshiped in Trinity and Trunity in Unity neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance. And this is the faith of the Church Catholic, founded by Jesus Christ and built upon the pillars of the ancient prophets and His holy apostles. And therefore I confess faith in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Norbert L

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The JWs do have the issue with that disfellowship thing they do to people who don't do as the elders say.... That seems pretty bad to me... What I've heard of the JWs is that there is a lot of hypocrisy and some bad stiff gets swept under the carpet.
Since the beginning Christianity has had wicked people among them. Jude 1:4. This has nothing to do with the nature of God. Like when an abusive person explains to you that 2+2=4, that doesn't make them wrong and if someone treated you kindly and told you 2+2=5, won't make them correct.
It does seem to me that this whole idea of the trinity could be mistaken... Is the trinity doctrine more of s church tradition? I don't want to risk my soul by deluding myself.. how does one truly know?

This is the video I saw, it goes into John 1... Well, it's part 1 of the video, you can find the rest...
John 1 is one of those go to scriptures that tends to be popular and interpretations conflict between JW and mainstream Christianity. However there's plenty of evidence from the OT that leads to the conclusion that the ESV has it right in the NT Jude 1:5, "Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." How?

OT authors used multi-personal language to describe God Genesis 19:24, "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven" How does that happen? It's like, John Doe throws a ball at Frank from John Doe out of left field. In earthly terms, the only way that makes sense is there are two persons named John Doe.

There are other places in the OT where you can find similar instances of more than one God being spoken of. Take Genesis 48:15-16 ESV for an example,

"The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
the
God who has been my shepherd all my life long to this day,
the
angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the boys"

A person might seriously want to know which one is it, God, angel or both? We do see this angel uniquely identified with God in Exodus 23:21.

Look at the story about Moses wanting to see all of Jehovah's glory Exodus 33:19. Moses is described as seeing Jehovah face to face like you would see your flesh and blood friend Exodus 33:11. However he gets told by this embodied Jehovah that flesh and blood people like Moses would die if they saw Him completely Exodus 33:20. Which leads to a description of one person in two different locations at the same time in verses 21 to 23.

Seriously add to that the difficulty for communication if people were to see the fully glorified God and as a result would drop dead. Plus the numerous times the OT uses literal embodied language for God, we would need to erase those encounters from the scriptures because they all get to live to tell about it. So who was this embodied angel that Moses saw face to face?

I would say that our 21 century culture has missed what the Gospel meant to 1st century Jews. Why they were capable of worshipping Jesus as the same Jehovah they were expecting to return to their 2nd Temple. Acts of the Apostles 1:6

 
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JMV

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?

Behold, the revelation of who He is shall be revealed to you..

7/2/11 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear


"Thus says The Lord: From the beginning I had written to you by the pen of My prophets, even to the showing of great signs and wonders. Behold, I came down in the flesh, and spoke with My people face to face. And in one day the sins of My people were purged, in one moment the pain of death was overcome. For I am The Lord.
I have declared the end from the beginning, I have spoken of things to come, many wondrous and terrible things. I have set up great kings, and I have cast them down. I have called forth armies to conquer, and I Myself have conquered great armies. I have humbled whole nations and scattered their peoples, and behold, I have also brought them back again. For I am The Lord, and there is no other; there is none like Me."

And...

1/21/10 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For Timothy, and For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear


"Behold, I shall be The God of horror and dreadful signs to them and their idols, the destroyer of all their temples, The One who reigns in Israel who breaks apart all their false foundations, The King, The Mighty and Strong One who smashes in pieces and wipes away even all they hold sacred! IT SHALL BE BROKEN IN PIECES! Behold I, even I, shall murder every god of the pagans and of the Gentiles, for they are no gods! Even the god of the sons of Ishmael shall die in that day, for he is no god! HE LOOKS NOTHING LIKE ME!


Then they will know, I AM THE LORD,
For there is no other and none like Me...

The One True God, THE ONLY GOD,
Whose fury has come in His burning jealousy;
Elohim, YAHUWAH, also being your only
Salvation and escape; behold, all shall know
Me and see My face, YAHUSHUA...

Bow therefore, and give glory to My name!
For it is time! Return to Me!"

And finally...

4/19/05 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

Thus says The Lord: Beware of the doctrines and traditions of men in the churches. Stumble not over the letter, nor be led astray by perverse interpretations or biased translations, by which the churches of men have marred My Word before the people. Rather study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.[1]
For I ask you, where in the Scriptures of Truth is it written to give praise and worship unto The Spirit? For The Spirit is not a person, nor have I called it by name. For to YahuShua alone did I say, “You are My Son; today I have begotten You.[2] Therefore worship God, offering up praises in the name of The Son, and give thanks. For those who believe in The Son, and also seek to obey Him, receive of My spirit. For it is My hand upon you, guiding you in the way in which you should walk, My voice speaking softly from within, reminding you of that which I have taught you,[3] restoring you to righteousness and life. Yet the power of God moving upon the face of the earth is My spirit also, My will made manifest in the world and among men.
Therefore, I ask you, how can one pray to that which he prays through? Shall one pray to the hand of God? Rather pray to your Father in Heaven, in The Son’s name, and through The Spirit we shall be one. For all My servants move, speak and hear Me through My spirit, and only through The Son shall My children come to know Me as I truly am... And oh how blessed are those who know Him, for they love Him and obey His voice, having truly received of Him, even of His spirit, The Spirit of God.


Indeed holy, holy, holy is The Lord God Almighty...

One God, invisible and visible, The Father and The Son;
And The Spirit called holy, because I am holy...

Therefore, accept My love and receive of My gifts;
For The Spirit is indeed a gift given by The Father,
Received through The Son…[4]

Call it not a person, call it a blessing;
For blessed are those who have The Spirit of God,
For God dwells within them.[5]"

Thus says the Lord YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH is His Name! Immanuel! God in the flesh! He is one God and the only Savior of which the Scriptures of Truth also testify. Didn't He declare long ago, "unless you believe that I Am He you will die in your sins."? I make it plain with this Word to live by, the Word of the Lord spoken to this last generation...

"The Lord is eternal; HE IS! He never ends! His love, His mercy, His justice, His majesty, His glory, His sorrow, all that He is endures forever! Likewise His creation has no end, no boundaries! There are no limits to contain it, for it is as He is!... HE IS THE CREATOR!... Everlasting, eternal, The Alpha and Omega, The Beginning and The End, The First and The Last by whom all things exist and have their being, through whom all living things have life!

Kiss The Son, therefore! Bow down heavily and give Him glory! Let the knowledge of who He is fill your heart with wonder and awe, with great reverence and worship! Give Him thanks and praise! For Holy is The Lord God Almighty, His ways past finding out! For who can understand the knowledge of The Lord contained within creation, or know the depths of His wisdom?! Yet His Glory surrounds us on every side, testifying to His majesty beyond question! Indeed, we are without excuse!

Behold, even the whole of creation shouts,
“YAHUSHUA is YAHUWAH!”
For it is He by whom all things consist,
It is He who causes to be...

For The Lord our God is One!"
 

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Yekcidmij

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FutureAndAHope

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.

In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?

I am glad you are trying to come to your own conclusion on this. But you can be assured the idea that Jesus is a part of the Godhead is 100% scriptural. Read the following page for my take on the topic The Seven Spirits of God used to explain the Trinity
 
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Tellyontellyon

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The Seven Spirits of God used to explain the Trinity

That's really interesting. It could be thought of as 7 dimensions of God... This could also be expressed in the idea of 7 chakras from the yogic tradition, or the ideas of 7 planes of consciousness, seven levels of self, that I've encountered through the Inayati Sufi tradition.
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread had a clean up. Only Christians are allowed to respond to the OP and there should not be debate among Christians.

Also, Jehovah Witnesses are not allowed to respond here as they are not Trinitarian.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they... It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?
Not necessarily. For starters there is the implication that Jesus didn't want to proclaim his deity but rather let people come to that conclusion.

Jesus use of the Tetragrammaton at his trial can be read multiple ways, but the obvious way was that he felt able to say the forbidden words because of who he thought he was.

Then there is Paul's continuous reference to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Then there is the coming of the Holy Spirit as depicted in Acts and the end of John.

Finally there is the issue of Jewish thought - unless the disciples (including Paul) were totally convinced none of them would have risked worshipping Jesus as God.

All told the evidence from the New Testament is that Jesus' followers worshipped him as God incarnate and that God's Spirit was left as evidence of this to those who believed.
 
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Clare73

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I've been reading the Bible, and reading what Christians here say.
I'm questioning, and trying to see what makes sense to me...
I've also had a look at the Jehovah Witness website that somebody shared with me recently and been reading some of the stuff by the Unitarians.
It seems the Trinitarians would call the non-Trinitarians heretics and say they aren't Christians.... But that could be said the other way around too.
The truth isn't about democracy, it's just the truth isn't it?

I'm not sure what to believe, when I read the Bible, the idea of the trinity doesn't leap out at me... To be honest the non-Trinitarians seem more convincing... when they get down into the Greek in John 1 etc.
In the Gospels, the apostles get excited because Jesus is the Messiah, and overcomes death... but you've really got to stretch things a bit too read the gospels as a declaration of Jesus being God.... They would be preaching that directly and unambiguously in all the gospels on every page if that was the case wouldn't they...
It would be monumental and a total change in the concept of God that had been taught from the beginning of time wouldn't it...

Wouldn't it?
Not with Nero breathing down your neck who might not take kindly to the competition.

When Israel, Jesus and the apostles used the Greek word for God (theos, theon), they meant Elohim and Jehovah, regardless of what the Greeks meant by the word.

In Greek philosophy, Logos was the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the Universe. John delares in the opening of his gospel that the recently despised and crucified man,
Jesus of Nazareth, is the eternal Logos, who is God (theos, theon--Elohim and Jehovah) source of all wisdom and power, who became flesh in order to reveal God to us.

That is the source of the Christian belief that Jesus is God. . .not to mention Jesus' claims about himself, including the claim he was to be honored as the Father is honored (John 5:23),
and the Jews' understanding him to be clearly claiming to be God (Mark 2:3-7; John 6:41-42, John 10:30-33, John 5:18, John 8:58-59, John 19:7), which is why they murdered him (Acts 7:52).
 
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