Mohammed and "Gabriel?"

zeeshan

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Good Morning,

Then who was the God that spoke through the prophet mohammed ?

Was it the God of abraham ?

Yes, it was the God of Abraham(pbuh). Actually, we believe that there is only one God so the God that spoke through the prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was the God of all of the prophets. The following is a relevant verse from the Holy Quran:

'We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers
after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes,
to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.' (4:163)

Zeeshan.
 
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Brian45

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Originally posted by zeeshan
Good Morning,



Yes, it was the God of Abraham(pbuh). Actually, we believe that there is only one God so the God that spoke through the prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was the God of all of the prophets. The following is a relevant verse from the Holy Quran:

'We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers
after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes,
to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.' (4:163)

Zeeshan.

If you believe the God of abraham is the same God who spoke to muhammad , then why don't you believe the christian bible ?
 
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zeeshan

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Good Morning,
I hope all of you are well.

If you believe the God of abraham is the same God who spoke to muhammad , then why don't you believe the christian bible ?

We do believe in the Christian Bible...we believe in all of the books revealed by God:
'Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to
Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and
Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference
between one and anothe
r of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)."' (The Holy Quran, 2:136)

However, we also believe that the versions of the bible present today are modifications of the original...i.e. we believe that the Bible has been changed from its original form. So we do not believe the versions of the Bible present today to be the word of God. We do not believe in the present day versions of the Bible not because we don't believe in the (original) Bible but because we do not believe that the present day Bible is the (original) Bible.
I hope that clears things up :) .

Zeeshan.
 
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Originally posted by zeeshan
Good Morning,
I hope all of you are well.



We do believe in the Christian Bible...we believe in all of the books revealed by God:
'Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to
Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and
Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference
between one and anothe
r of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)."' (The Holy Quran, 2:136)

However, we also believe that the versions of the bible present today are modifications of the original...i.e. we believe that the Bible has been changed from its original form. So we do not believe the versions of the Bible present today to be the word of God. We do not believe in the present day versions of the Bible not because we don't believe in the (original) Bible but because we do not believe that the present day Bible is the (original) Bible.
I hope that clears things up :) .

Zeeshan.

Hi-

Please identify the "original" Bible, and when exactly it was "changed" into some invalid form.  The earliest copies of the Gospels that we have are dated from 40-60 A.D.

Your Koran developed over time as well, so how can you say ours is invalid?  Just because someone wrote that in the Koran?
 
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zeeshan

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Good Morning,

Please identify the "original" Bible, and when exactly it was "changed" into some invalid form. The earliest copies of the Gospels that we have are dated from 40-60 A.D.

The original Bible is the one that was revealed to Jesus(pbuh) when he was on Earth...i.e. the actual words of God. I do not know when it was modified for the first time.

I have a question for you. There was only one Bible that was revealed to Jesus(pbuh). However, it is a open fact that there are many versions of the Bible in circulation today. This means that at the most, only one of the versions can be the one that was actually revealed to Jesus(pbuh) and the rest have to be modifications. So do you believe that only one of the versions is the one that was revealed to Jesus(pbuh)? If so, which one? If not, then please explain how all of the versions can be the original words of God and not words inspired by God (or something else)?

Your Koran developed over time as well, so how can you say ours is invalid? Just because someone wrote that in the Koran?

The Quran was revealed over time (over 23 years) but it was all in the life of Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) and it was all direct revelation from the God. There are many arguments through which one can conclude that the verses of the Quran are in their original form...exactly as they were when they were revealed. One of the arguments is as follows. There are millions if not billions of copies of the Quran in the world today. However, all of them are exactly the same (i.e. their arabic text is identical). Can you give any example of any other book in history that has been used on such a wide scale 1400+ years after its advent and yet have copies that are identical? Moreover, there are still copies present from centuries ago and they are identical to the ones in circulation today(->this may not be the best of arguments but it is one.)

And if you believe in one God and worship one God, then the most basic aspect of both our religions is exactly the same.

Zeeshan.
 
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bouncer

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I have a question for you. There was only one Bible that was revealed to Jesus(pbuh). However, it is a open fact that there are many versions of the Bible in circulation today. This means that at the most, only one of the versions can be the one that was actually revealed to Jesus(pbuh) and the rest have to be modifications. So do you believe that only one of the versions is the one that was revealed to Jesus(pbuh)? If so, which one? If not, then please explain how all of the versions can be the original words of God and not words inspired by God (or something else)?

Yes, it is an open fact that there are many versions of the Bible in circulation. But what makes you think that any of these Bibles is "different" from the other? See, the language spoken by Jesus was, I think Aramaic or something, and the language most Biblical books were written in, is Hebrew or Greek.  What use is a Bible kept UNCHANGED literally over 2000 years, when most of the worlds population can hardly read or understand those languages?  The fact is, having a book written in one language and kept unchanged, over all these years proves nothing!   The Christian motive is to reach out to people in their language and in a tongue easy to understand.  The different Bible versions, are just that....ONE book written in different ways to reach out to different kinds of people. The message and doctrine in each of these books is the SAME.

The Quran itself, having been translated into english, has three different versions that I know of, and probably more....Pickethall, Yusufali and Shakir.   Still you would agree that the message they bring is the same.....
 
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zeeshan

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Good Morning,

The fact is, having a book written in one language and kept unchanged, over all these years proves nothing!

You are right...it doesn't prove anything. All I said was that this is an argument that can be used to conclude that the Holy Quran is still in its original form (-> A more appropriate wording might have been 'this is one of the arguments that can be used to conclude that the Quran is still in its original form'). The truth of the matter is that in matters of religion, nobody can provide anybody with absolute proof of anything...we can only present arguments which we think are convincing and try to persuade members of other faiths by using those arguments...that is where belief comes in. If anything in religion was proved absolutely, then there would be no such thing as belief. As a simple example, we never say that 'I believe that I have two hands'...we know we have two hands -> this is proved just by looking at our two hands. Both Christians and Muslims believe in God, the angels and the day of Judgement and Heaven and Hell but just try proving that absolutely to the atheists. We will never be able to succeed because there is no absolute proof....just arguments which seem very convincing to us. The bottom line is, if you want absolute proof that the Holy Quran is the truth, you will never be able to find it just as there is no Christian that can prove absolutely that everything in the Bible is the truth...it is the arguments that we must ponder upon. We believe that the God has created this life as a place of trial and that the reward or punishment for this trial will be in the Hereafter depending on how we fare here. He shows us signs in this life and we can use our intellect to figure out what those signs mean and to search for the truth. If we do so sincerely, then the God will guide us to the truth if he wills.

The Quran itself, having been translated into english, has three different versions that I know of, and probably more....Pickethall, Yusufali and Shakir. Still you would agree that the message they bring is the same.....

The reason why I agree that the message they bring is the same is because I can turn back to the original arabic text and find out if the translation is a correct one and also because the translations have come directly from the original arabic text. In the case of the Bible, there is no chance of turning back to the 'original' Aramaic (or whatever language it was) since it no longer exists.
 
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NumberOneSon

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Zeeshan said:
We do believe in the same God as Abraham. Following are some (but not all) relevent verses from the Holy Quran:

From a biblical perspective you do not. I stated that if a Jew believed in the Father, he would also believe in the Son; to reject the Son is to reject the Father. Jesus made it clear that if they rejected Him then they did not believe in the God of Abraham, even though they clamored that they did, and that God was "their Father". He wasn't if they rejected the Son. So, Zeeshan, if you claim to believe in the same God as Abraham then you must believe that Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God. And you wouldn't be a Muslim.

Souljah said:
You are wrong about their doctrine. They profess to follow the faith of Abraham.

I mentioned their doctrines: are you going to tell me that the doctrines of Islam are the same as Judaism or Christianity? Certainly not. And again, they can "profess" to follow the faith of Abraham, but their profession and their faith does not lead to a knowledge that Jesus is their savior. It only leads them to believe that Jesus was a prophet and a teacher, not as great as Mohammed. Again, the Jews also made several claims to Jesus that they believed in the God of Abraham. It availed them little.

Let me give you a scriptural example; the Judiazers of the 1st Century also professed faith in Christ. They even believed He was the Messiah. But Paul declared that they taught a gospel that was no gospel "at all" in Galatians 1. So even though the Judiazers "professed" Christ they STILL did not know him, and were outside of salvation. How much more so are Muslims who claim to have the faith in the same God as Abraham but do not believe in Jesus as Savior. That was my point

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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zeeshan

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Good Morning,

The fact that we have many, many copies of translations, that all agree with each other, points to the fact that they are valid, in terms of matching the originals. Scholars estimate 99.5% accuracy.

So, what is the point, really?

I don't exactly understand what you are referring to...what is the point of what? If you are referring to the discussion we are having, then my point is to let all on this forum know why Muslims believe that the Quran is the truth (and if that is so, then the present day version of the Bible cannot be the 'original' because atleast some of the passages contradict what is in the Quran...although quite a few are in accordance with the Quran, I think). After those on this forum know about why we believe the Quran is the truth, then they can think about the arguments for themselves and come to their own individual decisions. And everybody has a right to believe in whatever he/she chooses to believe in.
One thing I noted about your last message. You said 'Scholars estimate 99.5% accuracy'. I am an undergrad student majoring in Statistics and I can tell you that one really can't conclude anything from a statement like that. An estimate is just an estimate and so alongwith it there is always some error. Have you ever asked a scholar about the error in the estimate? To put it simply, have you ever asked a scholar the least amount of accuracy that one can confidently assume?
Another thing is 99.5% accuracy is not 100% accuracy. It might mean that 995 passages out of a 1000 are accurate(again its an estimate so we could have a little less or more than 995 (or even a lot less depending on the error involved)). This means that there are probably some passages that are not accurate. Now, if these passages that are not accurate are the most important ones, then there is the possibility of coming to atleast some incorrect conclusion if one assumes the entire Bible to be the truth. And who's to say these inaccurate passages are not the most important ones?...After all, we no longer have the original to compare it with.
Your message actually brings me to another point that I have been wanting to make. You have yourself implicitly stated that there is some inaccuracy involved in the Bible by saying that accuracy in 99.5%. Since, the Bible was compiled by human beings (<-that is what I have understood from this discussion so far...please correct me if I am wrong), it is prone to error. Please note that I am not implying that those who compiled the Bible intentionally wrote something incorrect but that as human beings, we are not perfect and making mistakes intentionally and unintentionally is in our nature. The Holy Quran, on the other hand is the word of the God and it was revealed directly to the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) from the God through the angel Gabriel (AS). It is the same revelation that is in existence today...the millions (maybe billions) of copies of the Holy Quran are copies of the exact same revelation that came directly from the God. The God does not make errors, neither do the angels (<-they do everything exactly as God commands them to do). Hence, the Quran is 100% accurate with 0% error. Since this is not an estimate, the error is 0%. You can ask any Muslim how accurate the original Arabic text of the Quran is and you can ask any Islamic scholar and the answer you will get is the same...100% with 0% error. Based on this then, if there is ever a contradiction between the present day versions of the Bible and the Quran, I would choose the word of the God in the Holy Quran as final and correct and the truth over the word inspired by God in present day versions of the Bible...any Muslim would do the same. Thankyou for taking the time to read this.

Zeeshan.
 
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zeeshan

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Good Morning,
I hope you are well, Acts6:5.
I have read your message and I am ready to agree wholeheartedly with you that, according to the Biblical passages (that is passages from the present day versions of the Bible), we do not believe in the same God as Abraham (pbuh). However, as I have explained before and as 'S0uljah' has also implicitly pointed out, there is atleast some error in present day versions of the Bible. I have also stated how Muslims turn to the Quran for the absolute truth. According to the Quran, we worship and believe in the same God as Abraham (pbuh). And that is what we believe to be the truth. Your faith is different from ours in atleast some ways so obviously, we will not be able to agree on all things...this is probably one of those things.
Perhaps a better way to sum up the whole discussion is to say that we, as Muslims, believe that we believe in the same God as Abraham(pbuh).
And we do not make any distinctions between the prophets:
'Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to
Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and
Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference
between one and anothe
r of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)."' (2:136)

Zeeshan.
 
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that I have been wanting to make. You have yourself implicitly stated that there is some inaccuracy involved in the Bible by saying that accuracy in 99.5%. Since, the Bible was compiled by human beings (<-that is what I have understood from this discussion so far...please correct me if I am wrong), it is prone to error. Please note that I am not implying that those who compiled the Bible intentionally wrote something incorrect but that as human beings, we are not perfect and making mistakes intentionally and unintentionally is in our nature.

Humans wrote the Koran too. So, whats your point?
 
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I mentioned their doctrines: are you going to tell me that the doctrines of Islam are the same as Judaism or Christianity? Certainly not. And again, they can "profess" to follow the faith of Abraham, but their profession and their faith does not lead to a knowledge that Jesus is their savior. It only leads them to believe that Jesus was a prophet and a teacher, not as great as Mohammed. Again, the Jews also made several claims to Jesus that they believed in the God of Abraham. It availed them little.

Hey-

You believe in the Trinity, right? 1X1X1 = 1 God with three forms...or as many as He wishes, actually. Muslims not seeing the truth about 1 of the forms, doesnt mean they don't know the truth about one of the other forms.
 
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bouncer

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One thing I noted about your last message. You said 'Scholars estimate 99.5% accuracy'. I am an undergrad student majoring in Statistics and I can tell you that one really can't conclude anything from a statement like that. An estimate is just an estimate and so alongwith it there is always some error. Have you ever asked a scholar about the error in the estimate? To put it simply, have you ever asked a scholar the least amount of accuracy that one can confidently assume?
Another thing is 99.5% accuracy is not 100% accuracy. It might mean that 995 passages out of a 1000 are accurate(again its an estimate so we could have a little less or more than 995 (or even a lot less depending on the error involved)). This means that there are probably some passages that are not accurate. Now, if these passages that are not accurate are the most important ones, then there is the possibility of coming to atleast some incorrect conclusion if one assumes the entire Bible to be the truth. And who's to say these inaccurate passages are not the most important ones?...After all, we no longer have the original to compare it with.

Hi Zeeshan,

I agree with your post.....and I really wish we did have the originals to compare with, so that this matter could be laid to rest once and for all......

A couple of things though.....

Lets say from the original, some copies were made. And from these, other copies&nbsp;were made and eventually all these copies were&nbsp;distributed around the world.&nbsp; Now,&nbsp;IF&nbsp;some particular group in some part of the world&nbsp;chose to add/remove something from the Bible,&nbsp;and say in about 50-100 years it becomes a part of the Bible, then if we&nbsp;were to gather&nbsp;ALL existing copies&nbsp;, ALL existing versions of the Bible that exist in the world, surely there must be some&nbsp;discrepancies in them ?&nbsp; What souljah was saying, is that such a comparison HAS been done, and&nbsp;from a study of&nbsp;ALL existing copies of the Bible it has been established that 98.5% of the text was found to match! And of the remaining 1.5% that didnt match, it was determined that it doesnt make&nbsp;ANY doctrinal difference.&nbsp;

Which means, that if there is to be any corruption in the Bible, either the original authors themselves, wrote false accounts of actual events, or someone/some group of fanatics, have gone around the world and changed each and every version of the Bible over the last 2000 years.&nbsp;

Unfortunately, since we do not have any of the original documents to match , we go on the basis of the evidence we do have at this time, and on faith, that we have not been deceived!
 
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bouncer

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Holy Quran, on the other hand is the word of the God and it was revealed directly to the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) from the God through the angel Gabriel (AS). It is the same revelation that is in existence today...the millions (maybe billions) of copies of the Holy Quran are copies of the exact same revelation that came directly from the God. The God does not make errors, neither do the angels (&lt;-they do everything exactly as God commands them to do). Hence, the Quran is 100% accurate with 0% error. Since this is not an estimate, the error is 0%. You can ask any Muslim how accurate the original Arabic text of the Quran is and you can ask any Islamic scholar and the answer you will get is the same...100% with 0% error. Based on this then, if there is ever a contradiction between the present day versions of the Bible and the Quran, I would choose the word of the God in the Holy Quran as final and correct and the truth over the word inspired by God in present day versions of the Bible...any Muslim would do the same. Thankyou for taking the time to read this.

IF, the Quran is the word of God, I would probably do the same too....Christians generally reject the fact that the Quran was from God.&nbsp; The reasons,&nbsp;most commonly&nbsp;being because the Quran rejects the basic Christian belief of Jesus being the Son of God( God in human form). The Christian Bible has books by different authors all of whom claim that Jesus was God in the flesh.....in contrast, we have Muhammed, who is his only sole witness.....as far as I know NO ONE else saw the angel Gabriel visit him....and NO ONE truly saw him receive a single revelation from God.&nbsp; Muhammeds message is in no way unique, most of what is in the Quran is already present in existing Jewish and Chrisitian books. Even I could claim that I was visited by an angel, and over 50 years write&nbsp;a book that could pass off as a Holy Book and give instructions NEVER to alter a single word in it. Who can prove that I wasnt visited by such an angel or that the words in that book are not from God....

So what would I choose ? Some of my other problems with Islam, is that for it to be true, Christianity and Jewism(as we know it today)&nbsp;HAS to be false.&nbsp;&nbsp;Christians dont&nbsp;reject Jewish scriptures, we in fact have many books in common. Islam also says it starts where Jewism and Christianity ends, but along with that comes the condition that both Jewism and Christianity are corrupted religions, which cannot be proved conclusively as you will agree.&nbsp; Also, to me a lot of Islamic teaching seems to be human, more precisely words of&nbsp; a man,&nbsp;rather than from God. Take the fact that men are allowed to marry more than one wife and women are allowed just one husband.&nbsp; Islamic males are allowed to marry 'chaste' women&nbsp;who are Christian or Jew, but women can marry only Muslim men, (according to the&nbsp;Muslim law, I think). The islamic concept of heaven seems to consists of rivers, and gardens and fruit and 7 beautiful angels for each man (according to Muslimah who used to&nbsp;post in these forums)&nbsp;. The biblical concept of heaven teaches of living in the 'spirit'. We do not believe that&nbsp;we will exist in flesh or that we will have any of the 'human' desires that we have right now........anyway, my point is, all this seems to be more human than from God.&nbsp; If i were to write a book&nbsp;on what I want heaven to be like, and how many women i should be allowed to marry, id probably write just that!&nbsp; these are just to name a few of my issues with islam.....

Still for arguments sake, if i were to accept that the Quran is indeed Gods revelation.&nbsp;Muhammed heard it from God, and since he could not write, he had to retain whatever was revealed in memory, then perfectly, without error, dictate all that to his scholars,&nbsp;but since he could not read, there was no way he could have checked that&nbsp;the scholars or people who took&nbsp;down what he&nbsp;said, wrote exactly the same words he dictated to them. After all, they were human too, and were bound to make some mistakes.&nbsp; Still further, i read somewhere that after Muhammeds death, there were conflicting versions of the Quran around, &nbsp;but were all destroyed by the Caliph Uthman, and the only one kept was the one in possession with one of the wives of Muhammed.&nbsp; Is it not possible that there was some error involved there too ?&nbsp; So I wouldnt really say that the Quran is 100% error free, with complete certainty.

A lot of what I wrote above is purely personal opinions. Just some of my reasons on why I would rather still believe in Christianity....
 
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isshinwhat

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...the millions (maybe billions) of copies of the Holy Quran are copies of the exact same revelation that came directly from the God. The God does not make errors, neither do the angels (&lt;-they do everything exactly as God commands them to do). Hence, the Quran is 100% accurate with 0% error.

Here is the problem I have with that statement. The other versions of the Quran, which predate the current version, were all destroyed and therefore no comparison can be made as to how different they in fact were. Had the Catholic Church destroyed every other version of the New Testament but a Greek Codex, then we too would have a textually inerrant copy. As it stands though, the Early Christians went to the Church for the teaching of the Apostles, so any small errors in text would have been fairly inconsequential to the Faith they professed. They believed the Church to be unable to fall into heresy, which is why Christianity survived nearly 370 years without an official listing of inspired Scripture. The early Christians believed that through the Church, the teachings would be kept intact, regardless of small, unintentional errors in transmission of Scripture early on.

The account of this collection of the Koran has reached us in several substantially identical forms, and goes back to Zaid himself. According to it, he collected the revelations from copies written on flat stones, pieces of leather, ribs of palm-leaves (not palm-leaves themselves), and such-like material, ,but chiefly “from’ the breasts of men,” i.e. from their memory. From these he wrote a fair copy, which he gave to Abu Bekr, from whom it came to his successor Omar, who again bequeathed it to his daughter IJaf~a, one of the widows of the Prophet. This redaction, commonly called al-~oizof (“ the leaves “), had from the first no canonical authority; and its internal arrangement can only be conjectured.

The Moslems were as far as ever from possessing a uniform text of the Koran. The bravest of their warriors sometimes knew deplorably little about it; distinction on that field they cheerfully accorded to pious men like Ibn Mas’ud. It was inevitable, however, that discrepancies should emerge between the texts of professed scholars, and as these men in their several localities were authorities on the reading of the Koran, quarrels began to break out between the levies from different districts about the true form of the sacred book. During a campaign in A.H. 30 (A.D. 65o—651), Ijodhaifa, the victor in the great and decisive battle of Nehäveand (see CALIPHATE; and PERSIA: History) perceived that such disputes might become dangerous, and therefore urged on the caliph Othmgn the necessity for a universally binding text. The matter was entrusted to Zaid, who had made the former collection, with three leading Koreishi*t*es. These brought together as many copies as they could lay their hands on, and prepared an edition which was to be canonical for all Moslems. To prevent any further disputes, they burned all the other codices except that of ljaf~a, which, however, was soon afterwards destroyed by Merwgn the governor of Medina. The destruction of the earlier codices was an irreparable loss to criticism; but, for the essentially political object of putting an end to controversies by admitting only one form of the common book of religion and of law, this measure was necessary.

The result of these labours is in our hands; as to how they were conducted we have no trustworthy information, tradition being here too much under the influence of dogmatic presuppositions. The critical methods of a modern scientific commission will not be expected of an age when the highest literary education for an Arab consisted in ability to read and write. It now appears highly probable that this second redaction took this simple form:

Zaid read off from the codex which he had previously written, and his associates, simultaneously or successively, wrote one ~opy each to his dictation. These three manuscripts will therefore be those which the caliph, according to trustworthy tradition, sent in the first instance as standard copies to Damascus, Basra and Kufa to the warriors of the provinces of which these were the capitals, while he retained one at Medina. Be that as it may, it is impossible now to distinguish in the present form of the book what belongs to the first redaction from what is due to the second.

From the 1911 Edition of the Encyclpedia Britannica

Neal
 
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