Modern day Judaism vs Christianity

[Clare73]

Numbers 35:25. The death of the high priest enabled the one accused of manslaughter to leave from his protected exile, and nullified the right of the avenger of blood to kill the manslaughterer.

But that refers to natural death, not sacrificial death.

The death of one unrelated to the crime, but who was anointed for Godly service, enabled justice to be fulfilled on behalf of the other. How much more so the death of the righteous atones for others, and how much more so this is true of the most righteous of all: the Messiah for the nation, and thus the world.

The death of Lamech at the age of 777 before Noah and his family were saved in the ark.

The death of Miriam provided water in the desert for a grumbling people, the death of Aaron the victory over Arad whereas before his death, Edom was a closed door, the death of Moses (as a type of Messiah) leading directly to the entrance of Israel into the Promised Land.

The death of righteous prophets is an injustice that demands satisfaction - a credit if you will - which directly leads to the extending of G-d's mercy to those around them unless there is no repentance, which simply hastens judgement since the righteous are no longer around, and whose merit once protected a place from judgement (see lack of 10 righteous men in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah).

The repetition and reality of this is far beyond even scriptural examples: up to and even including the death of righteous people in exile before the return of the nation, even to the great death of many righteous in the Holocaust that led to the creation of the State of Israel.

The death of the righteous cause sinners to take notice, that if a righteous person can die because of the sins of others, how much more so can and should they die for their own sins... and this realization stirs sinners to repentance. This opportunity is not lost on G-d who looks on favor then at this possibility and extends his mercy long enough to see if any do, after which if there is no such realization of repentance, judgement comes, and it comes harshly, since the righteous have already been removed to not see such a calamity befall, and the sinners that fall upon it remain unrepentant.'

The death of the Messiah, who is Jesus, atones for all the sin of the world, not just G-d's people. But if one refuses, and refuses to repent, then all that remains is judgement since there is no one left to cover (atone) for them.

Thanks for your patience.

 

[hedrick]

About righteous Gentiles: Ger toshav - Wikipedia

I believe conservative Protestantism is actually unusual in having no category of people outside their own religion that may be saved.

 

[NinjaPirate777]

Even if you want to see this as an "excommunication" of Jesus, that doesn't change the fact that He was (and still is) a Jewish man. Further, it's not as though every single Jewish person at the time somehow was responsible for this--that's a horrible anachronistic and antisemitic trope which led to the charge of Deicide against the Jewish people, and led to pogroms, persecutions, and massacres of the Jewish people throughout the middle ages. It's those attitudes which ultimately allowed for Christians even in the modern era being okay when they saw their Jewish neighbors publicly attacked and lied about by evil men in Germany in the 1930's and 40's. It has allowed antisemitism to continue even into our day and era, even now in 2022.

Christians not only have a responsibility of acknowledging the ugly parts of our history, but have a further obligation to be ministers of peace and love toward our Jewish (and, indeed, all of our) neighbors.

The reason why people are bothered by what you said is because we've heard and seen what this language does. It sows hatred, anger, and breeds violence. It is the soil of antisemitism. And the Christian must stand against all antisemitism: For antisemitism is also hatred of Jesus Christ, our Lord, Rabbi, God, and King.

-CryptoLutheran

If Jewish people have faced lots of persecution throughout history maybe they need to look at that and ask themselves why. Blaming me for historic evils against Jews from before I was born is misguided. Especially when I don't advocate or not advocate such things. Just from recent news there is the Kanye and Dave Chappel situation. I don't like either of those guys, but I noticed one thing about the media reaction to what they said, I think they said something like Jews are in charge of most banking and media. Jewish and nonJewish media said those guys are antisemitic for what they said and they, media, tried to deplatform them and ruin their financial lives. Nobody said that what they said was factually wrong.

Christians have taken on the bad historic parts of their history, both real and falsely projected. They have abdicated their moral place in society and embraced every new idea from divorce to transgenderism. Hook line and sinker most of them have acquiesced. The people who have blindly stood in defense of Jewish people are corrupted and riddled with vice and a financial reckoning is not far off, at least for the dollar. Financial, social, legal policies heavily influenced by Jewish interests have brought the US and Europe to where we are.

Are you saying that disagreeing with you or Jewish people in general is very bad regardless of the merit of what I have to say because such agreements are by definition antisemitic which is always wrong?

 

[ViaCrucis]

If Jewish people have faced lots of persecution throughout history maybe they need to look at that and ask themselves why.

Well that's a huge yikes. I think we're probably done here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Josephus]

But that refers to natural death, not sacrificial death.

Not to start a whole new trail here, but for sure we both agree that the verse simply refers to death period. It doesn't matter what manner of death it is.

To be clearer though, there are other references than the death of the high priest and the release of the one convicted of manslaughter from exile as justification for holding to this belief.

Another is in the logic of G-d having the Torah write a clear juxtaposition of the death of Aaron's sons immediately with that of the Day of Atonement. As Rabbi Chiya Bar Abba said:

The sons of Aaron died the first day of Nisan. Why then does the Torah mention their death in conjunction with the Day of Atonement? It is to teach that just as the Day of Atonement atones, so also the death of the righteous atones. - Leviticus Rabbah 20:12. This appears in many Midrashim besides this one.

Is anyone saying that the death of the righteous atoning for those who are repentant, is not something understood or found anywhere in the scriptures or in Judaism? What then is such a person's basis for believing the death of Jesus atones for their sins? Just because he or his disciples just said so? No, I do not believe our faith is so ungrounded.

Bear in mind the idea of one having their sin atoned for, is not a guarantee for a place in the World to Come. Instead atonement is a moral and spiritual status of the moment - a receipt of transaction of death for sin, with anything not atoned for, or any small merit accrued, still taken into account before the Heavenly Court when determining the fate of one who arrives there. It is for this reason why after the climax of the Day of Atonement services, we refrain from speaking the Baruch Shem out loud... since even just a moment after the climax of the atonement transaction, we have likely sinned.

After all, we know the Day of Atonement itself atones, as it is written For it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you shall be clean from all your sins before the LORD - Lev 16:20, but this totality is conferred on the entire nation on that day, not individuals, or after it, unless one or the entire nation is repentant themselves. A Jew's belief that they have a place in the World to Come stems not from the status of their atonement, but from the entirety of the logic of Torah in multiple places about the Promised Land (which alludes also to the World to Come) and G-d's promises to return them to it, and is found in the verse all your people are righteous (Is 60:21). This idea is that the entirety of the Jewish people already have a place in the World to Come, because they are Jewish and have retained this identity and not lost it due to spiritual excision. However, it is understood within Judaism that such a status can be lost by excision which is due to grievous unrepentant sin such as intentionally rebelliously breaking the Shabbat, but such can be regained through sincere repentance and rectification - an opportunity afforded at anytime as long as one is still alive, and certainly is afforded during the Day of Atonement.

For sure, there is much more to write on this, but I simply wanted to address the idea that the death of the righteous atones, is not a foreign concept to Judaism, and is rooted in Torah (the first five books of the bible). We see this all the time in the community when such commentaries are written when righteous people die, and the community was spared from destruction. Even to this present day.

 

[Clare73]

About righteous Gentiles: Ger toshav - Wikipedia

I believe conservative Protestantism is actually unusual in having no category of people outside their own religion that may be saved.

Christianity likewise has no one outside their religion that is saved.

 

[NinjaPirate777]

Well that's a huge yikes. I think we're probably done here.

-CryptoLutheran

If the question is so offensive, then it becomes impossible to learn from whatever the answer is.

When a minority uses media to undermine the morals of society and financial laws to undermine the economy of a society, historically violent antisemitism becomes rampant. To some that is probably an antisemitic, hateful, bigoted very bad man statement. To others it is common sense. To history it is a recurring rhyme that is eons old.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If the question is so offensive, then it becomes impossible to learn from whatever the answer is.

When a minority uses media to undermine the morals of society and financial laws to undermine the economy of a society, historically violent antisemitism becomes rampant. To some that is probably an antisemitic, hateful, bigoted very bad man statement. To others it is common sense. To history it is a recurring rhyme that is eons old.

And with that you just said it was the fault of the martyrs that they suffered and died. When you blame the victims for what befalls them, you make your bed with the principalities and powers. You choose Caesar and deny Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[NinjaPirate777]

And with that you just said it was the fault of the martyrs that they suffered and died. When you blame the victims for what befalls them, you make your bed with the principalities and powers. You choose Caesar and deny Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

No. I said people who intentionally destroy a host society eventually reap the whirlwind.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No. I said people who intentionally destroy a host society eventually reap the whirlwind.

That you believe Jews "intentionally destroy a host society" and then say the same of other minority groups is no different than what the Roman Empire said concerning Christians, and is what got the ancient and holy martyrs killed.

So, yes, you just insulted the name and memory of the martyrs, and you've blamed victims of injustice for being persecuted.

I don't know what poison you've been drinking on the internet, but get away from it immediately. Repent and return to Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[NinjaPirate777]

That you believe Jews "intentionally destroy a host society" and then say the same of other minority groups is no different than what the Roman Empire said concerning Christians, and is what got the ancient and holy martyrs killed.

So, yes, you just insulted the name and memory of the martyrs, and you've blamed victims of injustice for being persecuted.

I don't know what poison you've been drinking on the internet, but get away from it immediately. Repent and return to Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Christianity did have a destructive effect on the Roman Empire. I'm surprised you would bring it up, but you're surprisingly right. I have to give you props for that.

 

[dzheremi]

Wow...this thread got a li'l Protocols of Zion-y, didn't it? Creepy.

 

[NinjaPirate777]

Wow...this thread got a li'l Protocols of Zion-y, didn't it? Creepy.

From what I understand, while those are in practice a large part of what is going on, they have been debunked by the media and nobody who is not antisemitic takes them seriously.

 

[ralliann]

Modern day Judaism is one of the religions I probably have the least amount of time studying it.

There is a ultimatum in Christianity. In which Non-believers will be in hell for all of eternity regardless of their good works they all fall short and did not believe in the true living God.

Does Modern day Judaism have a ultimatum?

For example if Modern day Judaism were true what would happen to Christians?

They would be judged by Noachide law which jew's taught God fearing Gentiles in their synagogues. The Judaism of today is the result of the Pharisees as Judges in the Sanhedrin. That generation were unjust judges, as the gospels testified to.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe, in a strong sense, that Christians & Jews are probably Gentiles to each other. Judaism has a healthy outlook of the concept of the righteous gentile (see: Ger toshav - Wikipedia ). I believe St. Paul held to this concept in his preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles who would become Christians. I believe this is especially apparent in Romans 2 (see: Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2 - King James Version).

The drawback to the righteous gentile concept is that we have no way of knowing who is good or evil and that is the default standard as how the Lord will judge ( see John 5:22-30). St. Paul warns sinning humanity about the peril and uncertainty it faces if only having works to judged by in Romans 3 ( see: Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3 - King James Version)

It seems that either there is too much guaranteed hell or heaven at various times in history. Without salvation by grace lived out in works worthy of repentance ( see Acts 26:14-20: Bible Gateway passage: Acts 26:14-20 - King James Version

and Ephesians 2:8-10: Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8-10 - King James Version

There is only a judgment of works and Jews and other non Christians will be judged by that. Christians should not lord over others although we have an assurance of salvation but we are warned in Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 11:22 etc. see: Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:21-23 - King James Version.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:22 - King James Version

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Clare73]

I believe, in a strong sense, that Christians & Jews are probably Gentiles to each other. Judaism has a healthy outlook of the concept of the righteous gentile (see: Ger toshav - Wikipedia ). I believe St. Paul held to this concept in his preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles who would become Christians. I believe this is especially apparent in Romans 2 (see: Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2 - King James Version).
The drawback to the righteous gentile concept is that we have no way of knowing who is good or evil and that is the default standard as how the Lord will judge ( see John 5:22-30). St. Paul warns sinning humanity about the peril and uncertainty it faces if only having works to judged by in Romans 3 ( see: Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3 - King James Version)
It seems that either there is too much guaranteed hell or heaven at various times in history. Without salvation by grace lived out in works worthy of repentance ( see Acts 26:14-20: Bible Gateway passage: Acts 26:14-20 - King James Version
and Ephesians 2:8-10: Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:8-10 - King James Version

There is only a judgment of works and Jews and other non Christians will be judged by that.

Jesus presents it differently in Jn 3:18. . .keeping in mind that works reflect the nature of one's faith, genuine or not.

 

[Lukaris]

In the context of John 3:16-21, the Lord states that those who do what is good will come to the light in verse 21. I believe the Lord calls us to salvation by grace so we can be saved. Otherwise we only might be saved or we might be condemned.

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:16-21 - King James Version

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Clare73]

Love my new avatar!

But away with the leaves!

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Wow...this thread got a li'l Protocols of Zion-y, didn't it? Creepy.

I would say deliberate anti-Semitic remarks are rising on CF. It's very disturbing to me.

 

[Clare73]

I would say deliberate anti-Semitic remarks are rising on CF. It's very disturbing to me.

If by anti-Semitic remarks, you mean rejection of the teaching of orthodox Judaism's denial of Jesus as the Christ who atoned for sin, that would be a correct and appropriate Christian response.