Modern day Judaism vs Christianity

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JohnB445

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Modern day Judaism is one of the religions I probably have the least amount of time studying it.

There is a ultimatum in Christianity. In which Non-believers will be in hell for all of eternity regardless of their good works they all fall short and did not believe in the true living God.

Does Modern day Judaism have a ultimatum?

For example if Modern day Judaism were true what would happen to Christians?
 

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Every religion, belief system, philosophy or worldview has its own exclusive claims, and Judaism is certainly no different. Judaism, as we know it today, evolved out of Phariseeism (and actually started in parallel with the New Testament Church. That is, the time of the death of the apostles coincided with the destruction of the Temple, which was the end of Judaism in a NT sense). So this means they reject God by rejecting His Son, for they deny that He is the Christ and one with the Father.

Judaism has different end goals, all of which are contrary to Christianity. Broadly speaking, maybe we can divide Judaism into three groups: Reform (liberal, rationalistic), Conservative (moderately liberal, rationalistic, legalistic), and Orthodox (legalistic, mystical). Some look forward to a future Messiah, some work to usher in the Messiah, some say the nation of Israel is the Messiah in a spiritual sense, and some simply strive for social, economic, and political good (in accordance with their own ideals). So basically, they all either look forward to a different kind of Messiah or no Messiah at all. This puts the Church outside of their faith.

Now, according to Judaism, it's unclear what happens to those who don't hold to their religion. Some may perhaps believe in a kind of hell, but I think most don't, and others in no afterlife at all. I'm not sure about this, but I think perhaps most teachings point to a kind of Universalism. So they don't have an ultimatum comparable to Arminianism or Roman Catholic doctrine. But they do have very different claims about life and the plan of salvation. So instead of comparing the faiths in terms of ultimatum, it's perhaps more helpful to think in terms of what the different religions claim the problem is and what the solution to that problem is. So, for example, for Reform Judaism the problem is injustice as they understand it, and the solution is to fight injustice through social, economic, and political means. In Christianity, on the other hand, the problem is sin, and the solution is Jesus Christ.
 
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Bob Crowley

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From my (very) limited reading on modern day Judaism, the first thing I would say is that there is not much consensus about belief apart from the fact of their self identity as Jews. It's very much a mixed bag.


I don't know these days what modern Jews believe about the business of "works vs. faith" to put it bluntly, but we need to bear in mind they were divided in Christ's day as well. The Pharisees were the closest to Christianity in their beliefs about judgement after death. The Saducees would possibly have been included in what the modern Jews regard as secular Jews.

Judaism does put a high premium on works in this world. I think this is partly why Jews as a whole tend to be "successful" and have an influence way beyond their numbers.

I don't think modern day Judaism can be regarded as "True" for the simple reason there is no single unifying factor, other than identifying as Jewish. Christians might be divided, but I think most of us accept we'll be judged. I think works will come into it, and not just faith - we will be judged on how we treated our fellow man for example. That's the second commandment, and we'll be held responsible for whether we obeyed it or not.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Modern day Judaism is one of the religions I probably have the least amount of time studying it.

There is a ultimatum in Christianity. In which Non-believers will be in hell for all of eternity regardless of their good works they all fall short and did not believe in the true living God.

Does Modern day Judaism have a ultimatum?

For example if Modern day Judaism were true what would happen to Christians?
True ,as in, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is not the Messiah???
 
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NinjaPirate777

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From what I understand of Judaism they believe Jesus' mother what a harlot and Jesus is in hell in burning excrement. Their holy books say non-Jews are like animals and should be used as such for the benefit of Jews.

Christians tend to believe Jesus was Jewish and Jews and Israel are really cool and we should spend lots of blood and treasure to befriends with and protect them because they are God's chosen people.

It's an odd dichotomy, this Judeo-Christian culture we live in.
 
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ViaCrucis

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From what I understand of Judaism they believe Jesus' mother what a harlot and Jesus is in hell in burning excrement. Their holy books say non-Jews are like animals and should be used as such for the benefit of Jews.

Christians tend to believe Jesus was Jewish and Jews and Israel are really cool and we should spend lots of blood and treasure to befriends with and protect them because they are God's chosen people.

It's an odd dichotomy, this Judeo-Christian culture we live in.

The Jewish holy book is the Tanakh, which roughly corresponds to the Christian Old Testament, containing the same books as the Protestant Old Testament.

The Talmud is a multi-volume work consisting largely of the Mishnah or oral traditions traditionally believed to have originated with Moses and the Gemara, the rabbinical commentaries and sayings from the 2nd Temple Period and early post-Temple period. The current Talmud is the Babylonian Talmud, because it was compiled by the Jewish communities in what is modern-day Iraq; there was also a Jerusalem Talmud but it largely exists only in fragmentary form.

No, Jews don't believe that Mary was a prostitute and Jesus is in hell burning in excrement. Official Jewish teaching about Jesus is that there is no official Jewish teaching. They simply don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

Anti-Christian propaganda in the early centuries, of Roman provenance (not Jewish), claimed that Jesus was the illegitimate child of a Roman centurion named Tiberius Pantera, which we know was a claim used by the anti-Christian polemicist Celsus because the claim is refuted in Origen's apologetic Contra Celsus. The claim does appear to have existed in some later Jewish writings, especially medieval ones. As a response from Jews against Christian attempts to convert them, and in time, where Christians gained political power as a polemic against growing Christian political power (and frequent persecution against Jewish communities, which tragically occurred frequently in the medieval period).

Christians don't "tend to believe Jesus was Jewish". Christianity states, unapologetically, that our God and Savior Jesus Christ was a Jew, of the Tribe of Judah. That isn't under dispute, and the only "Christians" who dispute this tend to be Identitarian heretics and anti-semites who want to spread their venemous hell-ridden toxin in the world.

Jesus Christ, our Lord, God, and Savior, is a Jew. We worship a Jewish man who lives and reigns at the right hand of God the Father, with the Holy Spirit, now and forever.

Anyone who doesn't isn't a Christian.

For the Christian faith is nothing other than,

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son our Lord, who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary (Miriam bat Joachim), who suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, buried, and dead; He descended into the lower regions, and on the third day He rose again. He ascended into heaven, and reigns at the right hand of the Father from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead. We believe in the Holy Spirit. We believe in the holy catholic Church. We believe in the forgiveness of sins. We believe in the resurrection of the body, and the life of the Age to Come. Amen."

Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham, the Son of Adam.
Jesus Christ, the Eternal and Uncreated Son of God.
Our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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NinjaPirate777

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That's because he was, in fact, a Jewish man.
A few people are ringing this bell pretty hard. The fact is, it depends. Jewish is a relation to Jewish people or Judaism. The Jewish leaders at the time Jesus walked the earth rejected Jesus to the point that they badgered the Roman governor Pilate into killing Jesus when Pilate did not want to. Was Jesus Jewish? To claim so now would seem disingenuous based on how things went down. Jesus believed He is the Son of God and the Jews disagreed.
 
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Yekcidmij

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The fact is, it depends. Jewish is a relation to Jewish people or Judaism.

I'm talking ethnically Jewish. I'd also argue that he was Jewish by religious practice as well. So take your pick I suppose.

The Jewish leaders at the time Jesus walked the earth rejected Jesus to the point that they badgered the Roman governor Pilate into killing Jesus when Pilate did not want to.

I'm not sure why this is relevant. Jews at the time disagreed over all sorts of things. We know of major factions (Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots)as well as more minor movements (eg, various apocalyptic sects or revolutionary movements) Heck, in the days of the Roman-Jewish war the Jewish people broke down into factions and fought one another - even within the walls of Jerusalem. Durning the last days of the Hasmonean rule, one Jewish faction would call on none other than Rome and Pompey the Great to side with them against the other Jewish faction. During the reign of Alexander Jannaeus the Pharisees and Sadducees came to violence against one another. So a disagreement with other Jews (even to the point of violence) wouldn't mean he ceased to be Jewish.

Was Jesus Jewish?

Being turned over to the Romans for a crime wouldn't mean he ceased to be Jewish in either ethnicity or practice.

To claim so now would seem disingenuous based on how things went down.

Nah. Nice try at a smear though.
 
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NinjaPirate777

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I'd say Jesus was effectively excommunicated from the Jewish religion when they pushed to have the Romans kill Him, and were successful at it. Ethnically, I don't know. Is there such thing as race?

It wasn't like Catholicism or LDS where excommunication is effectively a slap on the wrist with an invitation to come back when you get your act together.

When you act overly offended about a civil disagreement it reeks of insincerity the way a woman fake cries when she wants her man to feel bad for hanging out with his friends. It's a tell. Not that you or anyone else here would do such a thing.
 
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Clare73

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Modern day Judaism is one of the religions I probably have the least amount of time studying it.

There is a ultimatum in Christianity. In which Non-believers will be in hell for all of eternity regardless of their good works they all fall short and did not believe in the true living God.
However, the ultimatum in Christianity is about faith in Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 3:18).

And the only issue for modern day Judaism is do they believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus of Nazareth for remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," forensically declared righteous with a sentence of acquittal by God (justification).
 
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Clare73

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A few people are ringing this bell pretty hard. The fact is, it depends. Jewish is a relation to Jewish people or Judaism. The Jewish leaders at the time Jesus walked the earth rejected Jesus to the point that they badgered the Roman governor Pilate into killing Jesus when Pilate did not want to. Was Jesus Jewish? To claim so now would seem disingenuous based on how things went down. Jesus believed He is the Son of God and the Jews disagreed.
Jesus has genealogical proof that he was Jewish.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'd say Jesus was effectively excommunicated from the Jewish religion when they pushed to have the Romans kill Him, and were successful at it. Ethnically, I don't know. Is there such thing as race?

It wasn't like Catholicism or LDS where excommunication is effectively a slap on the wrist with an invitation to come back when you get your act together.

When you act overly offended about a civil disagreement it reeks of insincerity the way a woman fake cries when she wants her man to feel bad for hanging out with his friends. It's a tell. Not that you or anyone else here would do such a thing.
Even if you want to see this as an "excommunication" of Jesus, that doesn't change the fact that He was (and still is) a Jewish man. Further, it's not as though every single Jewish person at the time somehow was responsible for this--that's a horrible anachronistic and antisemitic trope which led to the charge of Deicide against the Jewish people, and led to pogroms, persecutions, and massacres of the Jewish people throughout the middle ages. It's those attitudes which ultimately allowed for Christians even in the modern era being okay when they saw their Jewish neighbors publicly attacked and lied about by evil men in Germany in the 1930's and 40's. It has allowed antisemitism to continue even into our day and era, even now in 2022.

Christians not only have a responsibility of acknowledging the ugly parts of our history, but have a further obligation to be ministers of peace and love toward our Jewish (and, indeed, all of our) neighbors.

The reason why people are bothered by what you said is because we've heard and seen what this language does. It sows hatred, anger, and breeds violence. It is the soil of antisemitism. And the Christian must stand against all antisemitism: For antisemitism is also hatred of Jesus Christ, our Lord, Rabbi, God, and King.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Yekcidmij

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I'd say Jesus was effectively excommunicated from the Jewish religion

Based on what rule or procedure? As I previously posted, Jews at the time disagreed quite a bit, even to the point of violence on one another, and even to the point of calling on Rome to assist their cause. But there is no evidence that the Pharisees or Sadducees, for example, were "excommunicated" from Judaism as ether ethnicity or practice.

It wasn't like Catholicism or LDS where excommunication is effectively a slap on the wrist with an invitation to come back when you get your act together.

We're talking about 2nd Temple Judaism, btw.
 
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Josephus

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I am an Orthodox Jewish disciple of Jesus.

Judaism teaches that a person is judged by their deeds in a balance, that hell for the most part is a temporary but harsh place of extreme spiritual embarassment for the imbalance that remains, that repentence is the means to righting many of one's wrongs without having to atone for much of it via suffering in this world, and that everyone is sent to this world to do their part to earn merit for both worldy and eternal rewards, and to repair what they broke, and if one fails at this they are reincarnated only a few times more until they rectify the damage they caused. This leads to an understanding of why bad things might happen to otherwise perfectly good people, or why there is suffering in this world.

Jews are held to a higher standard than non-Jews. The ultimatum is one repent of their deeds and walk righteously, before G-d's mercy deems it necessary to face the judgment of Gheinnom (hell) or reincarnation (worse since one could sin more) or annihilation at the end of the age, reserved for only the most repentant and willful sinners for who no amount of Gheinnom or reincarnations could fix.
 
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Clare73

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I am an Orthodox Jewish disciple of Jesus.
Does that mean you believe in and trust on Jesus' atoning sacrifice for the remission of your sin (Ro 3:25) and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," forensically declared righteous by a sentence of acquittal of guilt?
Judaism teaches that a person is judged by their deeds in a balance, that hell for the most part is a temporary but harsh place of extreme spiritual embarassment for the imbalance that remains, that repentence is the means to righting many of one's wrongs, and that everyone is sent to this world to do their part to repair it, and if one fails at this they are reincarnated only a few times more until they rectify the damage they caused. This leads to an understanding of why bad things might happen to otherwise perfectly good people, or why there is suffering in this world.

Jews are held to a higher standard than non-Jews. The ultimatum is one repent of their deeds and walk righteously or else face the judgment of Gheinnom (hell) or reincarnation (worse since one could sin more) or annihilation (at the end of the age, reserved for only the most repentant and willful sinners).
 
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Josephus

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Does that mean you believe in and trust on Jesus' atoning sacrifice for the remission of your sin (Ro 3:25) and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," forensically declared righteous by a sentence of acquittal of guilt?
The death of a righteous man atones the greater he is, some for the community, some for the nation. How much more so the death of Messiah who comes at the head of the nation, firstborn of Creation whose death atones for the whole world.

It is through this that teshuvah or repentence leads to a mercy where justice is satisfied to a triumph of mercy over justice. Without the atoning death of Messiah, repentence alone is inadequate to the demands of justice.
 
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Clare73

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The death of a righteous man atones the greater he is, some for the community, some for the nation.
[/QUOTE]
Is there an example in Scripture, apart from Jesus of Nazareth, of anyone atoning for the community, or for the nation?
How much more so the death of Messiah who comes at the head of the nation, firstborn of Creation whose death atones for the whole world.

It is through this that teshuvah or repentence leads to a mercy where justice is satisfied to a triumph of mercy over justice. Without the atoning death of Messiah, repentence alone is inadequate to the demands of justice.
So is Jesus of Nazareth that Messiah whose death atones once and for all for the sin of God's people?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Modern day Judaism is one of the religions I probably have the least amount of time studying it.

There is a ultimatum in Christianity. In which Non-believers will be in hell for all of eternity regardless of their good works they all fall short and did not believe in the true living God.

Does Modern day Judaism have a ultimatum?

For example if Modern day Judaism were true what would happen to Christians?

Judaism, especially modern Judaism, doesn't have the same kind of expectation for theological cohesion that Christianity does. One way I've heard it put is that Christianity is an orthodox religion (right belief is what is important) whereas Judaism is an orthopraxic religion (right practice is what is most important). As such, Judaism focuses far more on practice, observing Torah, with major Jewish religious commentaries and works of religion focusing on practice and interpreting Torah as a matter of practice (e.g. the Talmud, Jewish halakah, etc). Whereas in Christianity we have focused more, in our religious commentaries and how to interpret Scripture about what we believe and confess (the writings of the fathers, the Creeds, the various confessional statements, catechisms, etc).

What this means in this context is that there isn't a unifying Jewish belief about the afterlife. Rather there are numerous ideas and opinions that have been put forward down through the ages by various rabbinical authorities which do not agree with one another. Jewish commentaries, for example the Talmud, present competing opinions and provoke more questions, "Rabbi So-and-So said this" "But Rabbi Such-and-Such said this" and so what an individual Jew believes about certain things is a matter of personal opinion rather than religious obligation. There are, of course, unifying Jewish beliefs, but they tend to be focused around a small list of "essentially Jewish" ideas. For example, there is only one God, because the Torah says to worship no other god but YHWH.

The closest thing Judaism has to a "creed" would be the Thirteen Principles of Faith by the medieval Jewish sage Maimonides. Which affirms the oneness and unity of God as the only God and Creator, in the divine inspiration and giving of the Torah, a belief in judgment and reward, the coming of the Messiah, and resurrection of the dead. The Thirteen Principles can be found here.

Note that a belief in judgment/retribution and reward, and a belief in resurrection affirms a belief in life-after-death. But what all of that means exactly is still up for debate and open to opinion. Jewish sages throughout the centuries have said that time spent in hell, for most, is only partial, a kind of purgatory where the wicked are punished and cleansed of their sins before finally being able to enjoy peace in death. Other Jewish commentators have argued that the most wicked will spend eternity in hell. Some Jews don't believe in a literal hell at all. Other Jews believe in reincarnation, where an individual soul will go through several lives until finally attaining resurrection when the Messiah comes.

In Judaism being Jewish is not a requirement for experiencing the Olam Ha-ba (World to Come or Age to Come), but that when the Messiah comes both Israel and the righteous gentiles shall come together. Based on, for example, the words of the Hebrew Prophets who speak of the nations coming to Mt. Zion and joining with Israel in the future messianic age.

In Judaism, generally speaking, if there is a hell it is viewed as a time of purging and purification for the soul, but could mean an eternal punishment for the most wicked. Basically, your average sinner might spend a year in hell, but someone like Hamaan from the Book of Esther would suffer forever because of the depths and severity of their misdeeds. But, again, there's no unifying belief about hell in Judaism, or even if there is a hell at all.

To add even more complexity to this, opinions and views change even more depending on which branch of Judaism one comes from. An Orthodox Jew and a Reform Jew will have very different ideas about a lot of things. And then a Hasidic Jew even more different. And that's just speaking of normative Rabbinical Judaism. While Rabbinical Judaism is what "Judaism" almost universally always means, as this is the Judaism that descended from the Pharisees (basically the only major surviving sect of Judaism to survive the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD). There are also Karaite Jews, a relatively small and independent Jewish sect whose origins are still debated, Karaite Jews are notably different from Rabbinic Jews in that Karaites reject the Oral Torah (Mishnah), and thus do not consider the Talmud a valid authority; they are sometimes called Tanakh-only (Tanakh being the Jewish Bible, roughly being the same as the Protestant Old Testament) Jews as they only accept the Jewish Bible as their source, and thus their opinions on halakah (Jewish observance) depends only on the text of the Torah.

An example of the differences between Rabbinic and Karaite Jews is that Rabbinical Jews understand the commandment to not boil a juvenile goat in its mothers milk as a general prohibition against mixing meat and dairy together. Karaite Jews, on the other hand, take a more narrow and strict interpretation, and that it does not prohibit mixing meat and dairy generally, but prohibits, well, taking a goat's meat and boiling it in the milk of its mother.

This probably doesn't provide a clear answer to any of the questions posed, but should help provide at least some general ideas and invite further research. I've personally been fascinated by Judaism for many years, and have found benefit in speaking with practicing and observant Jews. Both because I enjoy reading about other religions, and also because Judaism has a special place within the history of Christianity. I've frequently found that Jewish insights have helped me in my own understanding of biblical history and thus frequently provides a helpful insight into the time and context of the New Testament and early Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Josephus

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Is there an example in Scripture, apart from Jesus of Nazareth, of anyone atoning for the community, or for the nation?

So is Jesus of Nazareth that Messiah whose death atones once and for all for the sin of God's people?

Numbers 35:25. The death of the high priest enabled the one accused of manslaughter to leave from his protected exile, and nullified the right of the avenger of blood to kill the manslaughterer. The death of one unrelated to the crime, but who was anointed for Godly service, enabled justice to be fulfilled on behalf of the other. How much more so the death of the righteous atones for others, and how much more so this is true of the most righteous of all: the Messiah for the nation, and thus the world.

The death of Lamech at the age of 777 before Noah and his family were saved in the ark.

The death of Miriam provided water in the desert for a grumbling people, the death of Aaron the victory over Arad whereas before his death, Edom was a closed door, the death of Moses (as a type of Messiah) leading directly to the entrance of Israel into the Promised Land.

The death of righteous prophets is an injustice that demands satisfaction - a credit if you will - which directly leads to the extending of G-d's mercy to those around them unless there is no repentance, which simply hastens judgement since the righteous are no longer around, and whose merit once protected a place from judgement (see lack of 10 righteous men in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah).

The repetition and reality of this is far beyond even scriptural examples: up to and even including the death of righteous people in exile before the return of the nation, even to the great death of many righteous in the Holocaust that led to the creation of the State of Israel.

The death of the righteous cause sinners to take notice, that if a righteous person can die because of the sins of others, how much more so can and should they die for their own sins... and this realization stirs sinners to repentance. This opportunity is not lost on G-d who looks on favor then at this possibility and extends his mercy long enough to see if any do, after which if there is no such realization of repentance, judgement comes, and it comes harshly, since the righteous have already been removed to not see such a calamity befall, and the sinners that fall upon it remain unrepentant.

The death of the Messiah, who is Jesus, atones for all the sin of the world, not just G-d's people. But if one refuses, and refuses to repent, then all that remains is judgement since there is no one left to cover (atone) for them.
 
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