Missing link was a lie

[JustMeSee]

Nope -- written by God, Himself.

Does this mean that Israel is not divinely entitled to their land?

(Just a YES or NO please.)

Because claiming the Bible is a myth can lead to anti-Zionism & anti-Semitism, if one isn't careful.

And this has what to do with scientists lying about a transitional fossil?

I believe men wrote The Bible with inspiration from God. I never heard of God writing it Himself.

 

[Philothei]

Mod hat on
Can we please go back to the topic. No GA talk please here... This is the second mod hat. Keep on track!!!

Mod hat off​

 

[dad]

Quite abrasive.

I discussed 'different state past' with my pastor. He never heard of that notion.

How many people do you know of that interpret a different state past from The Holy Bible?

Ask him about the future new heavens! You will see that we indeed are in a state that will not last. Ask him if he actually believes in creation week, and the flood. If so, he is welcome to explain to us, how all that happened in a present state, under current laws!
Ask him about the known evolution that went on, and all the links that do exist. No need to ask him about the little scam so called missing link mentioned in the OP, they admit it not any such thing.

 

[dad]

dad:
universally known spiritual - No idea what you're talking about

Most people on the planet from day 1 have believed in some form of spirits and spiritual. Nothing is more well known! The calendar, for example is set to it.

history - History is good. I've read quite a lot of it. Human records of human events. No problem there.

It also records spirits among men, not something we find in this state. We also do not see people living hundreds of years. That is a problem for a present state.

the bible - qualifies as a sort of history book i.e. written by humans about humans, but has an enormous amount of primitive mythology, fantasy and fairytales included which makes it both unreliable as a source and very tedious and unrewarding to wade through. It's a bit like having Herodotus and Finegan's Wake mixed up in the same volume.

You opinion of the best seller of all time, that moved billions of lives, and was validated in a plethora of ways isn't really needed here. That is already a done deal.

the witnessed resurrection - secondhand accounts passed on by word of mouth and written down decades later. Yeah, that sounds like it'll be 100% accurate then.

No, hundreds saw Him, and the world was never the same because of it! I would hardly call friends, and disciples, and family that died to seal the absolute truth of it..second hand. God directly promised to bring all the account back into clear memory for Mark, and Peter, and all of us there, that were to write it down. That is First hand. So, we have first hand accuracy, sealed in the life's blood of millions of martyrs.

ascension - Nurse, I think it's time for my medication.

Baseless personal incredulity is not of any value.

You can't wave away all the ghosts, and angels, and gods, and devils, and miracles of man's experience. - Actually I can because there is absolutely no proof for any of them. None at all. Got it? None. If there had been you'd be able to point to it. Unfortunately there isn't and you can't.

You redefine proof to fit the severe limitations of physical only science. Ridiculous.

True. But remember, there is nothing that a human being can discern or detect, observe or sense that a scientific instrument can't. You're limited in your perceptions by your body's sense organs. And your body is part of the real world. This means that if a scientific instrument can't detect it, you certainly can't. It's impossible to prove or disprove the existence of something undetectable, so you, dad, as a human being, will never experience your 'spirits'. Nor will anybody else.

No! Spirits have appeared to men not because they have special awareness. The special awareness would be required to see one if they did not chose to appear! That is where science is...out of the loop! Out of the circle of trust..

men also get special awareness when they accept Jesus, the Great Spirit, who disticntly promised we would then be born of, or to the spirit, and therefore things spiritual. We have that extra awareness as we speak! Try it, you just might love it!

No, they haven't. If you can prove otherwise I believe a man called James Randi will give you a million pounds. I hope you spend your money wisely,

I'll give him 2 million if he can see the spiritual if I stuck it under his nose..

What is missing is a missing link from beast to man!

 

[dad]

...

Does this mean that Israel is not divinely entitled to their land?

(Just a YES or NO please.)

If that refers to the secular state of 'Israel' I say no. I would say that they are missing a link to God at the moment?

 

[AV1611VET]

If that refers to the secular state of 'Israel' I say no. I would say that they are missing a link to God at the moment?

True, but I believe God gave them their homeland back as prophesied in Ezekiel.

I realize Israel is basically an atheistic entity, but she needs to be in place when the rapture occurs, or the antichrist is not going to have a venue with which to operate.

When Jesus comes back at the end of the Tribulation, this verse will be fulfilled:

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I love how one eschatologist put it:

In the end of the Tribulation Period, just before the return of Christ; Satan, beaten and bruised, is going to look up to God and say, "I still won! There's one prophecy that was never fulfilled! You said in Romans 11:26 that all Israel will get saved and they didn't!"

Then Jesus is going to descend with those nail-scarred hands, and all Israel is going to realize He was the Messiah all along and repent!
​

 

[dad]

True, but I believe God gave them their homeland back as prophesied in Ezekiel.

Fair enough. We will have to disagree though on that. There are parts of the prophesies that are not possibly fulfilled there in this time. I believe that when He brings them back the land really will blossom like a rose, and they will be safe..etc.

I realize Israel is basically an atheistic entity, but she needs to be in place when the rapture occurs, or the antichrist is not going to have a venue with which to operate.

I can't agree, friend. I agree that Israel a country will be in place, but not in a position of obedience and blessing of God. I do not accept that He brought them there this time. He will, and when He does He will do it right. If they were so blessed and safe, why would armies be raping and surrounding them, and stopping the daily sacrifice, and etc etc?

When Jesus comes back at the end of the Tribulation, this verse will be fulfilled:

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Well, at the end of the Trib, I am not certain if He comes with us, who are already raptured, to take over the earth. He will come then, of course. But it is a less than certain, apparently among scholars whether the rapture already happened before the trib. So, I see it like this. He comes back, stands on the mount of Olives, etc, and the Jews cry out to Him, realizing they were wrong all along, Then....and only then does He fulfill all the return stuff, temple, etc etc...

I love how one eschatologist put it:

In the end of the Tribulation Period, just before the return of Christ; Satan, beaten and bruised, is going to look up to God and say, "I still won! There's one prophecy that was never fulfilled! You said in Romans 11:26 that all Israel will get saved and they didn't!"

Then Jesus is going to descend with those nail-scarred hands, and all Israel is going to realize He was the Messiah all along and repent!
​

That gets into the question of what all Israel is. I wouldn't be surprised if, at that time, they do more or less all get saved, personally. At that time, they will have a right to that land. Not now, far as I can tell. By virtue of what?

It's fun agruing with you. Agreeing all the time can get boring..

 

[Tomatoman]

I'll give him 2 million if he can see the spiritual if I stuck it under his nose

But you can't can you. That's the problem. You can't stick any evidence of the spiritual under anyone's nose because you don't have any.

 

[dad]

But you can't can you. That's the problem. You can't stick any evidence of the spiritual under anyone's nose because you don't have any.

The calendar, AND days of the week are evidence of the spiritual, they impacted men, so he set the thing to them! Christian faith is evidence still with us, that exists only because a Spirit was at work, and Jesus was risen, by things spiritual. The documents in countries like the US reflect a spiritual reality. The rights that people in the US are endowed with, are from the "creator"!

I could present a born again Christian to this guy, but would he cough up the cash? No. because, if he wasn't saved, and maybe even if he was, how would he know? But maybe the person had a changed life, and no longer was the killing, addicted, sob they used to be. Maybe the person had spiritual gifts, like wisdom, which the poor guy wouldn't recognize. I could present the testimony of Paul, who saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. How would this guy verify it? Like he could go check?

 

[Tomatoman]

dad:

The calendar, AND days of the week are evidence of the spiritual, they impacted men, so he set the thing to them! Christian faith is evidence still with us, that exists only because a Spirit was at work, and Jesus was risen, by things spiritual. The documents in countries like the US reflect a spiritual reality. The rights that people in the US are endowed with, are from the "creator"!

The above is just wrong. And you've had it explained to you why it is wrong too many times to plead anything other than stupidity.

Claiming the existence of the christian faith as spiritual evidence doesn't work either. Belief is not proof, something you really should have grasped by now.
dad:

I could present a born again Christian to this guy, but would he cough up the cash? No. because, if he wasn't saved, and maybe even if he was, how would he know? But maybe the person had a changed life, and no longer was the killing, addicted, sob they used to be.

You've given your own answer to this example. 'How would he know?' Besides which it is not proof of the spiritual. It is merely a person changing his or her behaviour because of a belief. And as we know, beliefs can be irrational and at odds with reality. So, no, that example is useless as evidence.

dad:

Maybe the person had spiritual gifts, like wisdom, which the poor guy wouldn't recognize.

I don't think anyone would recognise spouting religious dogma as wisdom.

dad:

I could present the testimony of Paul, who saw Jesus on the road to Damascus.

It is true because someone else told me so doesn't qualify as evidence, you may be surprised to learn.

dad:

How would this guy verify it? Like he could go check?

Exactly. You have no evidence.

What would worry me if I were you is that you have based your own belief system around such flimsy tales. That would worry me deeply.

 

[dad]

dad:


The above is just wrong. And you've had it explained to you why it is wrong too many times to plead anything other than stupidity.

Actually this was right.

The calendar, AND days of the week are evidence of the spiritual, they impacted men, so he set the thing to them! Christian faith is evidence still with us, that exists only because a Spirit was at work, and Jesus was risen, by things spiritual. The documents in countries like the US reflect a spiritual reality. The rights that people in the US are endowed with, are from the "creator"!

If you can't get it, don't call others names! Pretty basic stuff.

Claiming the existence of the christian faith as spiritual evidence doesn't work either. Belief is not proof, something you really should have grasped by now.

No effect without a cause. The biggest effect on the planet, pretty well, was the Christian impact. It didn't grow from pond slime. It is here for real reasons, which cannot be ignored rationally.

You've given your own answer to this example. 'How would he know?' Besides which it is not proof of the spiritual. It is merely a person changing his or her behaviour because of a belief. And as we know, beliefs can be irrational and at odds with reality. So, no, that example is useless as evidence.

False! Claiming no outside help is merely a result of blindness to anything but what is inside. Since the spiritual is almost universally known and always has been, it cannot be waved away. Whether you see it or not. You merely believe that there is no more than you can see, despite evidence. What you see does not constitute the reality of man. What you chose to ignore tells us more than what you can see anyhow!

It is true because someone else told me so doesn't qualify as evidence, you may be surprised to learn.

Who told you that?? By your standards, disbelieve it, whoever it was!

 

[MoonLancer]

so Thor is real because of Thorsday aka Thursday?

 

[Tomatoman]

The calendar, AND days of the week are evidence of the spiritual, they impacted men, so he set the thing to them! Christian faith is evidence still with us, that exists only because a Spirit was at work, and Jesus was risen, by things spiritual. The documents in countries like the US reflect a spiritual reality. The rights that people in the US are endowed with, are from the "creator"!

drivel.

dad:

If you can't get it, don't call others names! Pretty basic stuff.

When once again confronted with stupidity that has already been carefully discussed and shown to be stupidity I don't know what else to call it.

dad:

No effect without a cause. The biggest effect on the planet, pretty well, was the Christian impact. It didn't grow from pond slime. It is here for real reasons, which cannot be ignored rationally.

So the muslims are correct then? And the Hindus? And the Buddhists and the Sikhs too? There are more people who believe in religions that are not christianity than believe in christianity. So by your own logic you're wrong. Because they can't have just made it all up can they?

dad:

Whether you see it or not. You merely believe that there is no more than you can see, despite evidence.

Cor, it's like banging my head against a brick wall. YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. No-one does. That's what I'm trying to get through to you. I mean, you admit you have no evidence and then restate that you have evidence. Repeating over and over again that you have evidence after admitting that you don't is just plain bonkers.

What you see does not constitute the reality of man. What you chose to ignore tells us more than what you can see anyhow!

I'm ignoring nothing. There is nothing to ignore. The bible and the existence of religion is not evidence. You don't have a problem with that when discussing the Koran and the muslim faith but suddenly don blinkers when you talk about the bible and christianity. It's bonkers. Plain bonkers. Surely you can see that?

dad:

False! Claiming no outside help is merely a result of blindness to anything but what is inside. Since the spiritual is almost universally known and always has been, it cannot be waved away. Whether you see it or not. You merely believe that there is no more than you can see, despite evidence. What you see does not constitute the reality of man. What you chose to ignore tells us more than what you can see anyhow!

What evidence? You keep claiming this evidence that you admit can't be presented as evidence. Bit of a problem that. Meanwhile you claim to be privy to something that can't be accessed through the senses of the human body. Very odd.

Who told you that?? By your standards, disbelieve it, whoever it was!

So you believe everything that people tell you? You believe everything that is written in the newspapers and is shown on television?

No?

Just the bible then. I see. And you believe everything that is written in the bible because...wait for it...

...someone told you it was true.

And trying to make the obvious nonsense in the bible gel with the world you've found yourself born into has caused you all sorts of problems. You've had to invent different states past and future to make it fit because it doesn't fit. It's rubbish. If you saw somone putting forward the idea of different states past and future to explain a story about the world only having existed for 6 minutes you might think them bonkers. This doesn't however worry you when arguing the same thing for 6000 years. Can you see why almost everything you write makes people alternately laugh, groan and roll their eyes?

 

[AV1611VET]

So the muslims are correct then? And the Hindus? And the Buddhists and the Sikhs too?

They are correct insofar as they show you empiricists that there's more on this planet than meets the eye; and to attempt to employ empiricism as the final standard for cosmology will be met with [verbal] opposition.

Your science is not welcome in the Kingdom of God.

Kingdom of Heaven? yes -- but with restrictions

Kingdom of God? no

 

[Tomatoman]

AV:

Your science is not welcome in the Kingdom of God.

Kingdom of Heaven? yes -- but with restrictions

Kingdom of God? no

Why not?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why not?

Nature is currently hostile to God and will completely ruin His creation.

I can think of two major areas:

1. Death -- called 'the last enemy' in 1 Corinthians 15:26.
2. Heat death -- called 'entropy' -- that will literally take the universe apart.

 

[MoonLancer]

how can death be hostel to a god who calls himself the destroyer?

 

[AV1611VET]

how can death be hostel to a god who calls himself the destroyer?

Death doesn't ask permission.

 

[dad]

so Thor is real because of Thorsday aka Thursday?

Exactly. The gods and spirits were real enough to men, to form our calendar! The biggest impact, of course is Christ, and the spiritual power involved in the resurrection, life, actual beings fulfilled prophesies, etc. That forms the core, the center of the time keeping of man. But, also, other spiritual beings influenced men to a lesser degree.

Even the Olympics started as something to honor a spirit.. Zeus. Los Angeles the city of angels and other places, might be another example!

The spiritual has always had a powerful impact on men, as it does today. Men have went off to war, "for God and country". For better or for worse, the spiritual is as much part of man's experience on earth, as a nose is part of a face.

 

[dad]

So the muslims are correct then? And the Hindus? And the Buddhists and the Sikhs too? There are more people who believe in religions that are not christianity than believe in christianity. So by your own logic you're wrong. Because they can't have just made it all up can they?

Only Christ sets the calendar. The other impacts are temporary also rans, with a booby prize of maybe a day named after them! As for other religions, or any religion, maybe, some spirit is likely behind it, if it gets anywhere! If it is a spirit that leads men to idol worship, or hate and murder, or whatever, chances are real spirits are at work behind the scenes. There is more to the spiritual, than the good spirits. When an angel came to answer Daniel's prayer, he told Daniel that a spiritual being delayed him for weeks on the way.

Cor, it's like banging my head against a brick wall. YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE. No-one does. That's what I'm trying to get through to you. I mean, you admit you have no evidence and then restate that you have evidence. Repeating over and over again that you have evidence after admitting that you don't is just plain bonkers.

We all have evidence of God in our lives, that are believers. What, you thought we just woke up one morning and presto? Billions of people have had gifts of the spirit, I would guess, and hundreds of millions had miracles. Some impact from outside on their lives. In a billion different ways, for different folks. Then there are the recorded and witnessed miracles, what, you think science can comment on any of that? Science is a physical only dunce sitting in a physical only corner, talking about physical only things, completely unaware by choice, and ability to see most of the world around him.

What evidence? You keep claiming this evidence that you admit can't be presented as evidence. Bit of a problem that. Meanwhile you claim to be privy to something that can't be accessed through the senses of the human body. Very odd.

Believers do get things that their senses enjoy, and body. For example

'a prudent wife is from the Lord' You can chalk everything up to chance, but you can't do it from a position of wisdom, and knowledge, only from a position of limited perspective.

...someone told you it was true.

No, not me. I believe prophesies because they are shown to have been fulfilled. Jesus was observed alive and risen. I also see God at work in people's lives, and even my own. I didn't wake up one day to a voice that said..'I am someone telling you to believe something..' In fact, they mock the bible on TV, and books, and schools, and magazines, etc. The someones were all telling us not to believe.

And trying to make the obvious nonsense in the bible gel with the world you've found yourself born into has caused you all sorts of problems.

On the wonderful absolute contrary. It has removed problems. It causes same state believers problems cause they can't prove their false belief.

Isa 44:25 -That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

You've had to invent different states past and future to make it fit because it doesn't fit. It's rubbish.

Science doesn't know. So I looked at the actual evidence. History and God tell of a different world in many real ways. No inventing on my part needed. The fantasy constructs of the godless same state cult, on the actual other hand, have done nothing but invent a dream past state.

If you saw somone putting forward the idea of different states past and future to explain a story about the world only having existed for 6 minutes you might think them bonkers. This doesn't however worry you when arguing the same thing for 6000 years. Can you see why almost everything you write makes people alternately laugh, groan and roll their eyes?

The bible and history are not considered totally bonkers at all. Your incredulity at the future or past being different has nothing to do with evidence or proof. The present state existing in the future and far past has been weighed in the balances, and found wanting.