Misogyny is disgusting

[Paidiske]

Thus, we arrive back at my original dilemma. We are faced with a binary choice: semi-repressive patriarchy or semi-repressive matriarchy.

Given that I am male, what possible incentive could I have to advocate for anything other than a patriarchal model?

I think your choice is a false dilemma. The range of possibilities is not binary at all. So the incentive could be to build the best possible society.

 

[muichimotsu]

I am male. Not that you asked.

Still, it seems a beneficial equilibrium is impossible. As a society, we can choose a semi-repressive patriarchy or a semi-oppressive matriarchy.

I am male. So for self-interest alone, why should I support anything other than a patriarchal model?

You're creating a false dichotomy, it doesn't have to be patriachal or matriarchal, you strive for as egalitarian a society as possible while acknowledging basic limitations of sorts that will exist based on sex, gender, socioeconomic class, etc.

Because half or more of the population is female and I'd rather not get on their bad side? In all seriousness, acting like only your sex matters in terms of getting positive treatment is a pretty harmful and self-centered notion. That'd be like expecting only white people to get positive treatment because you're white.

 

[Kylie]

I am male. Not that you asked.

Still, it seems a beneficial equilibrium is impossible. As a society, we can choose a semi-repressive patriarchy or a semi-oppressive matriarchy.

I am male. So for self-interest alone, why should I support anything other than a patriarchal model?

So how does patriarchy support you?

 

[Kylie]

That was the nominal goal of Feminism 1.0. But obviously we're way past that now. Feminism 1.0's goals were achieved decades ago.

Citation required.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I need to tie this thread together with the one about KY governor Matt Bevin's pardons.

LINK

When the Louisville Courier-Journal revealed earlier this month that former Kentucky governor Matt Bevin (R) had pardoned a slew of violent criminals during his final weeks in office, he cited his belief in second chances.

But on Thursday, Bevin offered a different explanation for one particularly controversial pardon: He said he didn’t believe that a 9-year-old girl was raped, because her hymen was intact.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Misogyny is a direct consequence of patriarchy.

Not in 2019.

 

[JackRT]

Not in 2019.

It was about 5000 years ago that patriarchy started to push matriarchal cultures aside. In the many centuries since patriarchy became embedded in society and philosophies were even developed to justify it. People simply could not envision the world in any other way. Jesus himself seems to have been egalitarian and to some extent the early church was far more so than either Jewish or Pagan cultures. But it only took about a century after the death of Jesus (the Pastoral Epistles) for patriarchy to reassert itself. So, yes in my opinion, the roots of misogyny lie in our patriarchal past.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It was about 5000 years ago that patriarchy started to push matriarchal cultures aside. In the many centuries since patriarchy became embedded in society and philosophies were even developed to justify it. People simply could not envision the world in any other way. Jesus himself seems to have been egalitarian and to some extent the early church was far more so than either Jewish or Pagan cultures. But it only took about a century after the death of Jesus (the Pastoral Epistles) for patriarchy to reassert itself. So, yes in my opinion, the roots of misogyny lie in our patriarchal past.

What would cause men to look down on women this way?

"Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls."

 

[JackRT]

What would cause men to look down on women this way?

Patriarchy creates the preconditions by regarding women as of an inferior carnal creature. Not all men sink as far as misogynists. Nor can all men rise above their societal preconditioning.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Patriarchy creates the preconditions by regarding women as of an inferior carnal creature. Not all men sink as far as misogynists. Nor can all men rise above their societal preconditioning.

That doesn't answer my question.

What evidence can you present that misogyny (as defined) is a widespread problem?

Def: Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls.

 

[JackRT]

What evidence can you present that misogyny (as defined) is a widespread problem?

Both rape and sexual slavery/trafficking are closely related to misogyny.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Both rape and sexual slavery/trafficking are closely related to misogyny.

I agree.

I think many mistakenly believe that anger against women translates to misogyny.

 

[JackRT]

I agree.

I think many mistakenly believe that anger against women translates to misogyny.

Most men have no problem with treating other men as equals. Some men, particularly as women have gained rights and job access, are threatened in their sense of entitlement. That and their societal conditioning can lead to anger. Carried to an extreme we have misogyny.

 

[Paidiske]

I need to tie this thread together with the one about KY governor Matt Bevin's pardons.

LINK

When the Louisville Courier-Journal revealed earlier this month that former Kentucky governor Matt Bevin (R) had pardoned a slew of violent criminals during his final weeks in office, he cited his belief in second chances.

But on Thursday, Bevin offered a different explanation for one particularly controversial pardon: He said he didn’t believe that a 9-year-old girl was raped, because her hymen was intact.

That poor child. Honestly, the mind boggles.

What would cause men to look down on women this way?

"Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls."

I've asked myself that often as I've encountered it, and I'm not sure I have come up with good answers. I read a book this week, though, (Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? ) which gives the best account that I've come across. Basically, his argument runs that if you've been raised in an environment, since before you were old enough to understand or remember, that tells you you're better than others and are entitled to be above them/control them, you will believe that message and be honestly wounded and feel cheated when, later in life, your experience doesn't match that. (When you encounter women as equals, or even in some contexts as your superiors, and are not able to control them etc).

There's the link between patriarchy and misogyny; patriarchy provides the context which tells men women ought to behave as men's subordinates, and then misogyny comes as those men believe that message.

 

[Kylie]

That doesn't answer my question.

What evidence can you present that misogyny (as defined) is a widespread problem?

Def: Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls.

Gender pay gaps.

And if you hear that a person was sexually assaulted, the victim is usually a woman, and the attacker is usually a man.

 

[Kylie]

I agree.

I think many mistakenly believe that anger against women translates to misogyny.

When the anger against a woman is directed at her precisely because she is a woman, why shouldn't it be called misogyny?

 

[muichimotsu]

What would cause men to look down on women this way?

"Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls."

Hmm...maybe the whole Eve being blamed for the fall of humanity into sin for one of several examples where women are regarded as temptresses, overly hysterical or otherwise not worthy to do much unless a "man" (including father figure God) approves

 

[JackRT]

Hmm...maybe the whole Eve being blamed for the fall of humanity into sin for one of several examples where women are regarded as temptresses, overly hysterical or otherwise not worthy to do much unless a "man" (including father figure God) approves

This is the essence of patriarchy.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Most men have no problem with treating other men as equals. Some men, particularly as women have gained rights and job access, are threatened in their sense of entitlement. That and their societal conditioning can lead to anger. Carried to an extreme we have misogyny.

God built that sense of entitlement into us. Hard to overcome.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hmm...maybe the whole Eve being blamed for the fall of humanity into sin for one of several examples where women are regarded as temptresses, overly hysterical or otherwise not worthy to do much unless a "man" (including father figure God) approves

You have stumbled upon one of the greatest truths in the universe.