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MoNiCa4316

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:wave: btw here's what CS Lewis (a traditional Christian) says about faith and works:

"Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from despair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come. There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying: "Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over $10, 000 and we will see you through". The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations.

The other set were accused of saying, "Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn't matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end". The answer to that nonsense is that, if what you call 'faith' in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what He says, then it is not faith at all - not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory about Him.

The Bible really seems to clinch the matter when it puts the two things together into one amazing sentence. The first half is, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on, "For it is God who worketh in you" - which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid that is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into water-tight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, "he did this bit and I did that". But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside you as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it different Churches say diferent things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you you need faith; and even those who insist most strongly on faith tell you to do good actions. At any rate that is as far as I can go.

I think all Christians would agree with me if I said that though Christianity seems at the first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes. But this is near the stage where the road passes over the rim of our world. No one's eyes can see very far beyond that: lots of people's eyes can see further than mine". (Mere Christianity)

As always, Mr. Lewis addresses the issue with humility and clarity. I don't know about you but I can certainly learn from him in that, lol... I think we're all talking about something that we do not, and can not, yet understand.
 
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Thekla

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I respect history as it exposes the nicolaitane apostacy & crimes of the men you would empower by blind obedience & naive acceptance of their doctrines.
Love,
Rick

on reading further, I do have a question; if this group successfully corrupted the New Testament, how can the NT be used to determine anything ?

also, how does Babylonian worship end up in England ? How can these diverse practices and deities all be Babylonian ?
What is concretely known about Babylonian religion (are there sources which record the specifics of the practices) ?
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Theosis is something that I find a hard time explaining outside of saying that it is not only a state of being, but also being in Communion with God. A step up from Adam and Eve before the Fall (consult local Orthodox clergy or TAW for more information ;))

I agree :) lol I think I see what you're saying but I can't really put it into words.

I think what I am seeing here is the "Don't let good food go to waste" sort of thinking.
Did you ever see the movie Dangerous Minds with Michelle Pfeifer? She plays an English teacher at an LA high school. At the beginning of the movie, she says something to her students to the effect of this; "All of you will start with A's. But, here's the deal, you have to do your work to keep your A". Something like that.
LOL well that is part of it, but my second point was that it's important for this 'new life' to grow, not merely be preserved. Or rather..for us to grow into it...or...yea this is beyond my understanding ;)

Metaphor time: Think of our souls and overall spiritual well-being as a field. God gives us the tools, but it is up to us to cultivate it for there to be food grown. We have to plant the seeds to begin with and fertilize and water it to expect anything. We can't just let it all sit and hope for the rest; instead we have to sweat a little and earn it. Just like Michelle Pfeifer in Dangerous Minds: if we are given something, we not only have to use it, but also maintain it to keep it as such. Maybe one day make it better than how it was given to us.

hmm..yes maybe :) I'll also add that it's God who gives us the ability and the desire to do this..

Works helps, but above all the works and faith in the world, it is God's Grace.

Amen. :amen: I can't really describe this, but the way I see it our faith and works are the results of God's grace....so even us 'nurturing' our 'new life' (I don't know what to call it..) is all done by His power....all by His grace.

In the end it's completely true that we're saved by grace alone. I think we can ALL agree with that. The question is: does this happen through faith alone, or faith+works? I think the Bible is clear here...
 
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E.C.

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In the end it's completely true that we're saved by grace alone. I think we can ALL agree with that. The question is: does this happen through faith alone, or faith+works? I think the Bible is clear here...
Even the all agree part is asking a bit much. Especially when we consider that a number of Reformed bits of theology undermine God's Grace.

I agree on the faith+works. Faith only opens the possibility of living a hedonistic life. I think a few of us can agree this has already happened.
 
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Rick Otto

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on reading further, I do have a question; if this group successfully corrupted the New Testament, how can the NT be used to determine anything ?
Also, if the NT was corrupted, how would one know if it was "returned" to its original and uncorrupted state if there was nothing "pure" to compare it to?
"Precept upon precept" is the rule.
Start with what you know is true & venture forth from there. Corruption will appeal to vain imagination, fear, vainglory, and excite the flesh to embrace what isn't true.
 
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Thekla

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"Precept upon precept" is the rule.
Start with what you know is true & venture forth from there. Corruption will appeal to vain imagination, fear, vainglory, and excite the flesh to embrace what isn't true.
can ya be a bit plainer ?

the article does not say how much was corrupted, so potentially the whole thing is corrupt.

so, more detail in your description would help
 
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Philothei

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Even the all agree part is asking a bit much. Especially when we consider that a number of Reformed bits of theology undermine God's Grace.

I agree on the faith+works. Faith only opens the possibility of living a hedonistic life. I think a few of us can agree this has already happened.
works are a command ...from Christ... thus they come into the picture as a "fruits" ....you will know "them" by their fruits... it is not in the meritiological sense... I am a Christian thus I am a good giver rather I am a Christian thus... presupposes giving alms...

It has nothing to do with merit... it has to do with our disposition of who we are ... our very essence of keeping the commandment of God and "imitating" Him that is by becoming like Him... thus we care about His creation and our fellow man.....This good works do not presuppose salvation... Just because a man gives his money away it does not buy him salvation if he does not have the right disposition with God... If he does not do it from the heart (disposition)and for only rather a utilitarian cause... to earn God's favor...

That is the reason why Christ makes the distincition about the poor widow... that it is not the quantity that matters but ...rather the disposition and attitute one has with his relationship with his material possesions...We also see that with the rich young man who he denies to separate himself from his money... and riches... Christ uses these examples to teach us that merely giving alms... is not the aim...for even the Hypocrites did....

Hope that makes sense... a bit.

Philothei
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Even the all agree part is asking a bit much. Especially when we consider that a number of Reformed bits of theology undermine God's Grace.

:wave: lol I don't know anything about that...there are soo many theologies out there :swoon: I'm *hoping* that everyone here agrees with "grace alone".

I agree on the faith+works. Faith only opens the possibility of living a hedonistic life. I think a few of us can agree this has already happened.

Well I wouldn't say that Protestants live a hedonistic life, I mean many of them are better Christians than I am and I believe in faith+works. I think we all know deep down we need both :) But I don't agree with 'faith alone' because the Bible says that's not the truth..(James)
 
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E.C.

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:wave: lol I don't know anything about that...there are soo many theologies out there :swoon: I'm *hoping* that everyone here agrees with "grace alone".
You'd be surprised.
Many times in many forums, like this, I've brought up God's Grace only to have it brushed under the rug.

Well I wouldn't say that Protestants live a hedonistic life, I mean many of them are better Christians than I am and I believe in faith+works. I think we all know deep down we need both :) But I don't agree with 'faith alone' because the Bible says that's not the truth..(James)
There are many that do. Not all, but many.
 
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Philothei

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http://www.antiochian.org/1454

Got to go to bed you guys and thank you for your ... reps and good words. St Basil is the person responsible for my post... and Glory be to God no man....

God bless, and have a restful night.

Philothei


edit: if that is not the right link look up St. basil on alms giving .... sorry it is kind of late...
 
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simonthezealot

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Look at Ephesians 2:8-10 works are the result of salvation...Not the aid or cause.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (New International Version)

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What is your view of faith? Faith and belief are not even close to the same.

But the difference is that in your theology you consider that work a requirement unto salvation.
The theology of the bible says works are a result of salvation as noted above.

Here's what faith is...
Hebrews 11

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Luther defines this beautifully...Thanks Mel!
"Faith is a divine work in us that transforms us and begets us anew from God, kills the Old Adam, makes us entirely different people in heart, spirit, mind, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. Oh, faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good. Likewise faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before one can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active… Faith is a vital, deliberate trust in God’s grace, so certain that it would die a thousand times for it. And such confidence and knowledge of divine grace makes us joyous, mettlesome, and merry toward God and all creatures."

Martin Luther on faith

living faith = belief + works done by the power of the Holy Spirit
I've shown from scripture how works were prepared in advance for His Glory, i've shown a simple and clear passage that defines faith and have enclosed Mels post from Luther for a clearer (scriptural) understanding.

NOW i'd like you to show me where in scripture it says that belief plus works = a living faith, which in turn leads to salvation...From what i've shown all scripture points to works as a result of a saving faith in Christ.


read Phillipians 3...
2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
 
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Catholic Christian

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Face it, the Catholics basically believe the same thing the Methodists do, which is simply -- we are not working our way into Heaven, we are working along the way to Heaven.
I like that. I'm not sure it is theologically precise, but it is essentialy correct.

I would add this:
Many people quote Romans, where it says you are saved by faith.
Others quote James, who says you are justified by works.

I believe the correct notion of a saving faith, is a working faith, which Paul sums up in Galatians 5:6 - "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlcinxP56AE
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by EmperorConstantine
As do I. Philothei is from the "we know what we're talking about" crowd.

Some of us have a rough idea, as well as a long list of emergency references!:D
:cool: Rough it is.
Btw, how do the Greek Orthodox interpret that greek name "destroyer" in reve 19:11? :wave:

http://christianforums.com/t6823406-question-on-reve-1911.html

1 Corin 1:18 For the Word, the of the cross/starou, to those men perishing/apollumenoiV <622> (5730), foolisness is.
To those yet being saved, to us power of God is.

Reve 9:11 and they are having on them a king, the messenger of the abyss, name to him to-Hebrew, Abaddon/abaddwn <3>, and in the greecian name he is having Destroyer/Ruiner/apolluwn <623>.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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NOW i'd like you to show me where in scripture it says that belief plus works = a living faith, which in turn leads to salvation...From what i've shown all scripture points to works as a result of a saving faith in Christ.

I never said that works are not the result of faith, and I never said that they don't come from grace. Please go back a couple of pages to where I said that our good works come from the "new life" that's already in us. I just disagreed with you on the function that these works have in our salvation, not on their origin. I was saying that faith, obedience, love, good works, sacraments, etc, all help us to keep our salvation, because it's possible to lose it (I'm not OSAS).

But..oki.

Belief + works = living faith

"faith without works is dead" ..???
Hence..faith + works = is alive.

Also: "You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did"

And this leads to salvation because:

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

But all these "good works" are done because of God's grace, and apart from grace they are completely useless, because we can not save ourselves.

Also there's "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..for it is God who works in you.." this implies that salvation is not a one time guaranteed event, but that we have to "work it out". This doesn't mean that we earn our salvation or that we save ourselves...we ARE saved by grace alone, all because of Christ... I just disagree with you on how it happens. I'm sorry but most of Christianity disagrees with you too. I can't say that I understand it perfectly, of course I don't, but I think many people ignore James 2 and focus too much on Paul's letters...Paul's letters are excellent but all parts of the Bible are useful and true.

peace

monica
 
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Rhamiel

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10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
yes Simon, God prepared everything in advance, now all we have to do is go and do it, the Bible verse you are pointing to does not clearly negate the idea of free will
 
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TraderJack

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Quote:
That's right, man must access that grace through the Roman sacraments.


you are wrong
There is true and real grace in the sacrements, but God is sovereign and can give His grace in a more individual and less formal way, it is traditionaly called a "mystical" experiance, but in modern english mystical has come to mean occult, when you pray and you feel the Holy Spirit move you this is a form of grace, when you are strenghened by the power of God or when He gives you understanding of His Bible, all of this is from grace and not always a sacremental grace


Are you an infallible teacher of the Roman religion now?

If not, then it may be good for you to actually find out what your religion really teaches, because that sacerdotal sacramentalism I stated above is exactly what your religion has taught since the dark ages.
 
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