Misconceptions

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you an infallible teacher of the Roman religion now?

If not, then it may be good for you to actually find out what your religion really teaches, because that sacerdotal sacramentalism I stated above is exactly what your religion has taught since the dark ages.

Oh, is that what it is called now?

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
Rome made them as formal declarations of dogma, ie-divine truth and must be believed in order to be saved. So, let them formally renounce them as not true. Then there is some basis for real discussion.



You may consider some to be "false doctrines", and ther are some who pose as "Protestants" that indeed do teach false doctrines, which I oppose as stridently as any other.

However, Rome makes astounding, incredible claims, which must be scrutinized for validity.

Do you think it absolutely neccessary to be subject to the pope in order to be saved?

Reformists have not changed their contempt for Rome or contempt for anything liturgical either.

Where did you get the idea that the Reformed have any contempt for liturgical worship?

You could not be further from the truth.

Pope of Rome? Nah. I'll stick with local bishops and my jurisdiction's primate.

That wasn't the question.

When Rome proclaimed it absolutely neccessary to be subject to the pope of Rome in order to be saved, was the pope of Rome speaking "Divine truth" as Rome claimed, or not?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Here is what the Orthodox church believes about salvation, etc. It's very similar to what other 'traditional' Christian churches believe.


"SALVATION is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal kingdom. Those who heard St. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three steps: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, to turn from our sin and to commit ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit Who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, to be nurtured in the Church, and to be conformed to God's image.

Salvation demands faith in Jesus Christ. People cannot save themselves by their own good works. Salvation is "faith working through love". It is an ongoing, life-long process. Salvation is past tense in that, through the death and Resurrection of Christ, we have been saved. It is present tense, for we are "being saved" by our active participation through faith in our union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is also future, for we must yet be saved at His glorious Second Coming.

BAPTISM is the way in which a person is actually united to Christ. The experience of salvation is initiated in the waters of baptism. The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 6: 1-6 that in baptism we experience Christ's death and resurrection. In it our sins are truly forgiven and we are energized by our union with Christ to live a holy life. The Orthodox Church practices baptism by full immersion.

Currently, some consider baptism to be only an "outward sign" of belief in Christ. This innovation has no historical or biblical precedent. Others reduce it to a mere perfunctory obedience to Christ's command (cf. Matthew 28:19, 20). Still others, ignoring the Bible completely, reject baptism as a vital factor in salvation. Orthodoxy maintains that these contemporary innovations rob sincere people of the most important assurances that baptism provides -- namely that they have been united to Christ and are part of His Church.

NEW BIRTH is receipt of new life. It is how we gain entrance into God's kingdom and His Church. Jesus said, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). From its beginning, the Church has taught that the "water" is the baptismal water and the "Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. The new birth occurs in baptism where we die with Christ, are buried with Him, and are raised with Him in the newness of His resurrection, being joined into union with Him in His glorified humanity (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3, 4). The idea that being "born again" is a religious experience disassociated from baptism is a recent one and has no biblical basis whatsoever.

JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living. Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement guaranteeing eternal salvation, regardless of how wickedly a person might live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ. The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power of God granted to all who continue to believe in Him.

SANCTIFICATION is being set apart for God. It involves us in the process of being cleansed and made holy by Christ in the Holy Spirit. We are called to be saints and to grow into the likeness of God. Having been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, we actively participate in sanctification. We cooperate with God, we work together with Him, that we may know Him, becoming by grace what He is by nature.

[my note: the EO often call all this 'theosis' and make no distinction between sanctification and justification]

THE BIBLE is the divinely inspired Word of God (II Timothy 3:16), and is a crucial part of God's self-revelation to the human race. The Old Testament tells the history of that revelation from Creation through the Age of the Prophets. The New Testament records the birth and life of Jesus as well as the writings of His Apostles. It also includes some of the history of the early Church and especially sets forth the Church's apostolic doctrine. Though these writings were read in the Churches from the time they first appeared, the earliest listings of all the New Testament books exactly as we know them today, is found in the 33rd Canon of a local council held at Carthage in 318, and in a fragment of St. Athanasius of Alexandria's Festal Letter in 367. Both sources list all of the books of the New Testament without exception. A local council, probably held at Rome in 382, set forth a complete list of the canonical books of both the Old and New Testaments. The Scriptures are at the very heart of Orthodox worship and devotion.

WORSHIP is to render praise, glory, and thanksgiving to God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All humanity is called to worship God. Worship is more than being in the "great-out-of-doors", or listening to a sermon, or singing a hymn. God can be known in His creation, but that doesn't constitute worship. And as helpful as sermons may be, they can never offer a proper substitute for worship. Most prominent in Orthodox worship is the corporate praise, thanksgiving, and glory given to God by the Church. This worship is consummated in intimate communion with God at His Holy Table.
As is said in the Liturgy, "To Thee is due all glory, honor, and worship, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen." In that worship we touch and experience His eternal kingdom, the age to come, and we join in adoration with the heavenly hosts. We experience the glory of fulfillment of all things in Christ, as truly all in all.

EUCHARIST means "thanksgiving" and early became a synonym for Holy Communion. The Eucharist is the center of worship in the Orthodox Church. Because Jesus said of the bread and wine at the Last Supper, "This is my body", "This is my blood", and "Do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22: 19,20), His followers believe -- and do -- nothing less. In the Eucharist, we partake mystically of Christ's Body and Blood, which impart His life and strength to us. The celebration of the Eucharist was a regular part of the Church's life from its beginning. Early Christians began calling the Eucharist "the medicine of immortality" because they recognized the great grace of God that was received in it.

(by the way, the early Church Fathers had the same view about the Eucharist and Baptism as traditional Christians today. Just look at what St. Justin Martyr said as early as the 2nd century (we can assume that's what the Apostles believed as well):

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST. And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here is what the Orthodox church believes about salvation, etc. It's very similar to what other 'traditional' Christian churches believe.

So what are the major differences between the Orthodox, Roman catholicism and Reformed Protestism? Just curious and I started a thread on that here:

http://christianforums.com/t6825875-what-are-major-differences-between-orthodox-and-catholicism.html

 

[MoNiCa4316]

If not, then it may be good for you to actually find out what your religion really teaches, because that sacerdotal sacramentalism I stated above is exactly what your religion has taught since the dark ages.

St. Justin Martyr also believed in this "sacramentalism" and he lived 100-165 AD.

But Rhamiel is right, we don't believe that grace is ONLY present in the Sacraments.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

So what are the major differences between the Orthodox, Roman catholicism and Reformed Protestism? Just curious and I started a thread on that here:

http://christianforums.com/t6825875-what-are-major-differences-between-orthodox-and-catholicism.html

lol that's way too complex for me Interesting thread though, I'll check it out

 

[simonthezealot]

St. Justin Martyr also believed in this "sacramentalism"

Whatever you say monica...

 

[TraderJack]

Here is what the Orthodox church believes about salvation, etc. It's very similar to what other 'traditional' Christian churches believe.


JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living.

And by living a righteous life, God can then allow them into heaven.

Romans 3;

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 4;

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Man born of Adam cannot become actually righteous, but is positionally righteous on account of Christ and faith in Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Whatever you say monica...

Well, she is just quoting from the early ECF's, of which I really do not have that much knowledge of.

 

[Rhamiel]

If not, then it may be good for you to actually find out what your religion really teaches, because that sacerdotal sacramentalism I stated above is exactly what your religion has taught since the dark ages.

the Church has honored great christian mystics throught the ages.
I love it when protestants think they know more about the Roman Catholic Church then Catholics

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack

If not, then it may be good for you to actually find out what your religion really teaches, because that sacerdotal sacramentalism I stated above is exactly what your religion has taught since the dark ages.

St. Justin Martyr also believed in this "sacramentalism" and he lived 100-165 AD.

Not on your life.

Justin Martyr did not believe that you can be justified, then lose that justification as soon as sinning again, and have to atone for your sins yourself through penance in order to be put back into a state of justification again.

Please try not to misrepresent Justin Martyr.

But Rhamiel is right, we don't believe that grace is ONLY present in the Sacraments.

Are you Roman Catholic?

Then why are you speaking for Roman Catholics?

You and Rhamiel both need to learn what Rome actually teaches, dogmatically, not the private teachings, but what Rome actually teaches as "Divine truth", as it claims, but we know is not.

 

[simonthezealot]

Well, she is just quoting from the early ECF's, of which I really do not have that much knowledge of.

Jusin Martyr did NOT believe in infant baptism rather believers baptism, he did NOT believe in the sacrificial nature of the eucharist as is promoted by Rome...And his writing prove he did NOT believe in purgatory.
So sacraments attached to that false doctrine should be disallowed.

 

[TraderJack]

Faith and Deeds

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

The BIBLE James 2

Yes it is, and we uphold it's truth. Which when read in context is James speaking about a specific kind of faith, being a "said faith".


The context of that passage is laid out at the very start:

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

James is describing one who claims to have faith to other men, but demonstrates that his faith is not genuine through his actions and behaviors.

So, James is right, one who tells other men that he has faith, but his deeds prove otherwise, such a profession cannot save him.

James is not talking about how one is justified before God at all. James is talking about how one justifies himself before other men.

 

[Rhamiel]

You and Rhamiel both need to learn what Rome actually teaches, dogmatically, not the private teachings, but what Rome actually teaches as "Divine truth", as it claims, but we know is not

The Church is transparent in her teachings, you seem to take more pleasure from going through 2,000 years of history looking for an odd quote or a decadent pope then to learn what the Church really teacher

 

[TraderJack]

And which of the reformed has the right ..... truth? Calvin, Luther.... ??? who is your Pope?

ah.... Christ did not mentioned anything about Luther or Calvin been the reformers to the scripture anywhere last time I looked.... only about Apostles and leaders of the local community..... never about interpreters of the scripture... the term "reformation" is not even in the Bible.....

And also what about scriptural and historical together? or historicity is not of value because it uncovers the true meaning of the Bible in its right context?

And also what about scriptural and historical together?

Ask that of the Romans. Rome needs no Scriptural or historical proof in order to proclaim infallible dogma.

Rome takes license to proclaim whatever it pleases, because it says it can.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Church is transparent in her teachings, you seem to take more pleasure from going through 2,000 years of history looking for an odd quote or a decadent pope then to learn what the Church really teacher

What does that mean?

 

[Trento]

Quote:
That's right, man must access that grace through the Roman sacraments.





Are you an infallible teacher of the Roman religion now?

If not, then it may be good for you to actually find out what your religion really teaches, because that sacerdotal sacramentalism I stated above is exactly what your religion has taught since the dark ages.

Dark ages HUMMM. Last time i was in the Catacombs an Egyptian archaeolgist translated an epigraph for us cut on the sarcophagus of the couple Flavius Julius Catervius and Septimia Severina. Besides references to Baptism and Confirmation and the Euchrist, there is added one to the Sacrament of Matrimony Confered by a Priest which is couched in poetic terms full of shining hope in the resurrection.

The Lord Almighty who with equal merit has joined you in the sweet bonds of Matrimony looks forever after your sepulchre, O Catervius. Severina is happy to be united with you forever. May you be raised together, with the grace of Christ, O you blessed ones, whom Probianus, the whom Probianus, the priest of the Lord washed with Baptism and anointed with sacred chrism ."

In the Basilica of San Lorenzo fuori le mura near Rome was uncovered an epitaph (12) which affirms that verus in altari cruor est vinum (the wine on the altar is authentic blood) showing an explicit allusion to the teaching of Transubstantiation (Theol) Conversion of whole substance of eucharistic bread and wine into body and blood respectively of Christ.

This all in the 2nd century.

 

[TraderJack]

The Church is transparent in her teachings, you seem to take more pleasure from going through 2,000 years of history looking for an odd quote or a decadent pope then to learn what the Church really teacher

Which could not be further from the truth.

That's a pretty good misrepresentation. Try not to use hyperbolic melodrama from now on.

You do understand what formal dogma is, right?

You do understand that in the Roman religion, an "infallible" proclamation cannot be changed(so the theory goes), no matter what century it comes from, right?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rhamiel
The Church is transparent in her teachings, you seem to take more pleasure from going through 2,000 years of history looking for an odd quote or a decadent pope then to learn what the Church really teacher

Which could not be further from the truth.

That's a pretty good misrepresentation. Try not to use hyperbolic melodrama from now on.

You do understand what formal dogma is, right?

You do understand that in the Roman religion, an "infallible" proclamation cannot be changed(so the theory goes), no matter what century it comes from, right?

I suppose the teachings are so transparent they can only be revealed through the Roman Catechism

 

[TraderJack]

Originally Posted by TraderJack
Quote:
That's right, man must access that grace through the Roman sacraments.





Are you an infallible teacher of the Roman religion now?

If not, then it may be good for you to actually find out what your religion really teaches, because that sacerdotal sacramentalism I stated above is exactly what your religion has taught since the dark ages.

Dark ages HUMMM. Last time i was in the Catacombs an Egyptian archaeolgist translated an epigraph for us cut on the sarcophagus of the couple Flavius Julius Catervius and Septimia Severina. Besides references to Baptism and Confirmation and the Euchrist, there is added one to the Sacrament of Matrimony Confered by a Priest which is couched in poetic terms full of shining hope in the resurrection.

I see, another fallacy of the Romans is to see words like, "priest" or "sacrament" and immediately assume it is speaking of the Roman system of sacerdotal sacramentalism that developed during the dark ages, when in fact the two have nothing to do with each other.

In the Basilica of San Lorenzo fuori le mura near Rome was uncovered an epitaph (12) which affirms that verus in altari cruor est vinum (the wine on the altar is authentic blood) showing an explicit allusion to the teaching of Transubstantiation (Theol) Conversion of whole substance of eucharistic bread and wine into body and blood respectively of Christ.

This all in the 2nd century.

Well, scratchings on a wall does not constitute "divine truth".

Odd that the Greeks do not hold to "transubstantiation" as Rome does, and the Greek churches have been around much longer than Rome.