Mis-conceptions about Patristic Universalism

[cupid dave]

5.. Everyone will eventually be saved (John 1:29; Rom 11:25-26, 32; 1 Tim 4:10)
This is not to say there is no hell or that people are not held accountable for their sins, but only that after the proper punishments have been administered whether they be medicinal, pedagogical, or purificatory, then all will be reconciled to God.

I agree.
But everyone will also be changed in some way you do not explain.

The flood wiped out all men who were not saved.
It seems to me that what we look forward to is a Bible insight that all men will accept, even the atheist.

There must be some change in what we understand such that everyoene is "savable."

It is the proposal of us Theistic Evolution Buble people that thi new all encompassing insight is a marriage between Science and the Bible which weds the Truth of both together into one whole statement of fact that can not be ignored.

What we see is that sociology becomes a support to the prophecies the nations will fall one after the other if they do not behave sexually moral.

We see that America is 50% pagan now (Democrat/liberal), she will either change and be saved or representthe perfect example of Islam invading and destroying this magnificent technological heaven on earth.

 

[Huram Abi]

If you haven't noticed, the Quran is a holy book that already does a much better job at reconciling Science and Scripture than you will ever be able to do with the bible by the "insight" you keep claiming to have, yet atheists aren't scurryong to become Muslims.

How can you expect that pretending there is already a group of followers of your book or that being derogatory about over half of the people in the country (Democrats + women in general) is going to make your case?

 

[msmorality]

I agree.
But everyone will also be changed in some way you do not explain.

The flood wiped out all men who were not saved.
It seems to me that what we look forward to is a Bible insight that all men will accept, even the atheist.

There must be some change in what we understand such that everyoene is "savable."

It is the proposal of us Theistic Evolution Buble people that thi new all encompassing insight is a marriage between Science and the Bible which weds the Truth of both together into one whole statement of fact that can not be ignored.

What we see is that sociology becomes a support to the prophecies the nations will fall one after the other if they do not behave sexually moral.

We see that America is 50% pagan now (Democrat/liberal), she will either change and be saved or representthe perfect example of Islam invading and destroying this magnificent technological heaven on earth.

Are you blaming Islam for immorality ? I am confused .

 

[msmorality]

I know you asked Reine, but I'd like to share a little of my testimony.

I got my girlfriend pregnant and 'had to' marry her. But after a divorce at 19 as a Catholic, I was left with "keep coming to church but you can't take communion, you can't get remarried unless she dies....oh yeah be sure and put your money in the collection plate." With that image of God being presented to me, I pretty much decided that I would go to hell with the rest of my friends. And if I was going, then I was going to make sure I was worthy of it. For the next 4 years it was drinking, drugs (using/dealing), grand theft, sex, VD, and smuggling. IOW I went pretty wild. So I guess that 'threat of hell' was a big fat zero of a deterrent in my case.

Wow, thank you. What a great statement that the instilling of ' fear ' of punishment did nothing to transform your mind, heart and direction. May I ask what eventually ' saved' you from the self destruction ?

 

[Hillsage]

Wow, thank you. What a great statement that the instilling of ' fear ' of punishment did nothing to transform your mind, heart and direction. May I ask what eventually ' saved' you from the self destruction ?

The following was copied from my 'public profile'/'about me'/personal testimony.

I was selling pot, drawing unemployment and working at a bar for cash when a girl came in and invited me to her house to hear "some Jesus freak lay a rap on us". I went, and he gave his testimony. I left the house getting into my 57 Chevy and said "God I know you exist and I can 'know you' and not just 'know about you'...help me quit smoking cigarettes." Then I lit up a joint and drove off. My life started changing from that night. Theologically wrong I know, but experientially effectual.

Coming to 'know him' as He is that night (which really was just 'loving me' as I was) made me want to become, like HE IS. This was simply the cry of my spirit resonating/'becoming one' with His Spirit. Of course good old 'indoctrination' changed what 'He is like' for a number of years.

 

[msmorality]

The following was copied from my 'public profile'/'about me'/personal testimony.
Coming to 'know him' as He is that night (which really was just 'loving me' as I was) made me want to become, like HE IS. This was simply the cry of my spirit resonating/'becoming one' with His Spirit. Of course good old 'indoctrination' changed what 'He is like' for a number of years.

Thank you. You have an amazing testimony.

 

[IndieVisible]

Most interesting and civil thread, I will be subscribing to it. I'm 56 years old and started out very young (7) in my journey. I've always had difficulty with reconciling a loving God with eternal punishment, but equally had difficulty with the main doctrines of Universalism. Of course this is no where near as hard to grasp as Calvinism and St Augustin theology. Certainly God is just and there must be a Just solution.

There is problems with any "model" we use, so it's possible it could be some thing else all together or a little of each? Or none of the above. The Bible is not as clear cut as many would like to believe it is, again it depends on what ever your main model of belief is and you interpret the rest accordingly. Thank God for free thinkers that keep all of us thinking

 

[msmorality]

Most interesting and civil thread, I will be subscribing to it. I'm 56 years old and started out very young (7) in my journey. I've always had difficulty with reconciling a loving God with eternal punishment, but equally had difficulty with the main doctrines of Universalism. Of course this is no where near as hard to grasp as Calvinism and St Augustin theology. Certainly God is just and there must be a Just solution.

There is problems with any "model" we use, so it's possible it could be some thing else all together or a little of each? Or none of the above. The Bible is not as clear cut as many would like to believe it is, again it depends on what ever your main model of belief is and you interpret the rest accordingly. Thank God for free thinkers that keep all of us thinking

Absolutely. I found that between Armenian and Augustinian Theology. Patristic Universal-ism brings balance to both.

I think it was Thomas Talbott who said.:

The free will model teaches God is very loving, but is not powerful enough to save everyone.

The Calvinism Model teaches God is very powerful, but lacks enough love to save everyone.

In the Universal model God is both loving and powerful. And accomplishes victory for salvation for everyone..

I like another quote from an unknown Author.

If believing God is both loving enough and powerful enough to save everyone makes me a heretic so be it..,

 

[cupid dave]

Hello Phil.

I replied earlier today on the thread on second chances..

It all depends upon the model you subscribe. And for 22 years, I was a Southern Baptist and believed the traditional model. That is until I was convicted of a certain situation I was personally involved . When I took a step back and saw how my theology promoted exclusive , controlling , manipulative interpretations of the bible, it was life changing, and most important Faith changing.

So based on that model, any other view is going to appear as ' wrong '. We all are swayed through the model we believe is correct and view scripture through that lens. So, really, not one of us, unless we are God can claim to be without error. We are fallible humans. All we can do is the best we can and follow the path that helps us Love God and love our neighbor as yourself.

When I took a good hard look at 22 years in the ' traditional ' model I saw that I did not love God ( I loved a book and enjoyed bashing people with the book we call the bible ). I saw my error as the same as teachers of the law. ' Loving the letter, and missing the spirit'...

I understand where you are coming from and if you are opposed to other views, I have no intention of changing your view. I have no interest in bickering for the sake of remaining exactly where I am, and where you are..

I agree with your analysis of te bible debaters and the denominatinal environment.
It is impossible to dicuss the bibe on a level where the people involved are unbiased and open to new points of view, just because they are really defending a view they already are faithful to, instead of faithful to The Truth.

They forget that Christ IS The Truth and the way to the light into a saved life.
They are faithful to their churches dogma and teachings, which is carried to the extreme when it concerns interpretations of the Bible.

They forget that the Bible is a closed book, and that we await the one to come who can open it.

 

[The Gnostic]

I did the same thing msmorality ... peiople begin to worship their 'religion' instead of God. I had vision in my dream last night that we were playing jump rope over the pit of Hell. A messanger appeared to us and told us not to do this, because we would become contaminated. I looked at the jump rope we were holding, and it had this black, tiny, gross, evil things crawling from the pit ont to the jump rope.

I looked at the messanger, and I instantly understood that the Hell was dogmatic, brainwashed. bashing that you described that occurs within religions.

It is important to note, that in this vision the pit contianed no people. It was crusty, gooey, black. charred remenants of evil.

I like to give you a slight different view on what the black crusty gooey stuff is.In one simple word I believe it represents ignorance whereas any light seen in your dreams may represent Wisdom.

 

[cupid dave]

Are you blaming Islam for immorality ? I am confused .

?

I did not see Islqam mmentioned in the quote above.

What I see is pagan liberal America full with one half of all families raising fatherless children.
I do not see thatsocial behavior in Islam, which is actually setting a good example in that regard.

What I do see is the same vise about sexual immorality today and what happened in 1960.

That vise was between Malcolm X on one side and the Rev christian Martin Luther King on the other side of Civil Rights changes in America.

I see the Truth about promiscuous feminist women and liberal immoral dwemocrats like Bill Mahr coming face toface with Christians on the facts of social problems, or else sword to sword with muslims.

 

[msmorality]

?

I did not see Islqam mmentioned in the quote above.

What I see is pagan liberal America full with one half of all families raising fatherless children.
I do not see thatsocial behavior in Islam, which is actually setting a good example in that regard.

What I do see is the same vise about sexual immorality today and what happened in 1960.

That vise was between Malcolm X on one side and the Rev christian Martin Luther King on the other side of Civil Rights changes in America.

I see the Truth about promiscuous feminist women and liberal immoral dwemocrats like Bill Mahr coming face toface with Christians on the facts of social problems, or else sword to sword with muslims.

Thank you for expanding . I am passionate about this topic as well, and believe that the feminist movement has had a lot of influence , unfortunately on immorality. But.... this would make a good topic in another thread..

 

[cupid dave]

Thank you for expanding . I am passionate about this topic as well, and believe that the feminist movement has had a lot of influence , unfortunately on immorality. But.... this would make a good topic in another thread..

Yes, it ought be a new thread especially today when the churches have their heads in the sand as their own children are actually responsible ofr 2/3 of the 1.5 million annual abortions today.

They need a revival that starts with admiting that the Torah is the focus of love god and neighbor, Christ is Truth.

 

[msmorality]

Yes, it ought be a new thread especially today when the churches have their heads in the sand as their own children are actually responsible ofr 2/3 of the 1.5 million annual abortions today.

They need a revival that starts with admiting that the Torah is the focus of love god and neighbor, Christ is Truth.

Good points, let me know if you start a thread..

 

[cupid dave]

Good points, let me know if you start a thread..

Well what I havebeen doing is interjecting these ideas and statistical observations into discussion especially with atheists and non believers in order to explain hy the bible is so biased against straight and homosexual pressures to make promiscuous sex a more and more liberal and common behavioral practice in America.

The liberal feminist pressure for Gay Marriage, and out of the closet aggressive sexual behaviors, skin bare dress codes, and abortions, coupled to the acceptance of No Fault Divorce, and multiple marriages and pre-maritlal sex are the reasons people like Billaher ridiculae the Bible as archaic and out of touch.

So, I focus on responding to those forums and discussions which ignore or do not know that the Single Mother Family is 50% in America and the children represent 75% of all social problems in the Nation.

This says nothing about the tremendous public expense in so many areas due to this behavior we INTENTIONALLY teach the next generation to duplicate.

 

[msmorality]

Well what I havebeen doing is interjecting these ideas and statistical observations into discussion especially with atheists and non believers in order to explain hy the bible is so biased against straight and homosexual pressures to make promiscuous sex a more and more liberal and common behavioral practice in America.

The liberal feminist pressure for Gay Marriage, and out of the closet aggressive sexual behaviors, skin bare dress codes, and abortions, coupled to the acceptance of No Fault Divorce, and multiple marriages and pre-maritlal sex are the reasons people like Billaher ridiculae the Bible as archaic and out of touch.

So, I focus on responding to those forums and discussions which ignore or do not know that the Single Mother Family is 50% in America and the children represent 75% of all social problems in the Nation.

This says nothing about the tremendous public expense in so many areas due to this behavior we INTENTIONALLY teach the next generation to duplicate.

Keep up the good work..

 

[agape101]

Msmorality, Respectfully, your comments do not line up with the Scriptures. I had recently posted an article concerning "Second chance." If you have a moment, examine it.

Man's Conscience, and God's creation.

The following does not speak of the Mosaic law, but the law of right and wrong, the laws of morality.

For those who have never had any direct Divine revelation, are given some light concerning the Creator. A measure of light burns in each man's conscience. Their conscience posses a sense of right and wrong.

Rom.2:14-15, "When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness."

A community having no direct revelation from God is now a community that is a law unto themselves. Not accountable to any other law outside their community. They are not to be judged by any dispensation other than that which they live. Their conduct within the community in which they live, will be that which they are judged by.

A community having a natural justice in their debates, in their written laws, their courts, their duties, and in their morals. This is the light that God has given to them. Discerning correctly between right and wrong. Accountable only to the Lord for their moral conduct concerning these matters.

Concerning the creation.

Rom.1:19, "That which may be known of God is manifest = (evident) in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

Those who live in the jungles of Africa, waste-lands of the Artic, can see with his eye the creation: its order, beauty, function, each part working within the whole.

A creation perfect in beauty, in design, in operation. No one will be able to cop a plea of, Not guilty! when presented with the evidence of Supreme God, the evidence of his existence, is the world we live in.

Rom.1:20, "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Scientist, nature worshippers, all giving the glory of God to another.
Nature itself, is the demonstrator of the Creators power, and majesty.

The invisible, things unseen, made know to us by God's visible works, and therefore should be understood by our senses. Can only be perceived as coming from a Divine Creator.

Rom.2:15, "The work of the law written in their heart = (man's heart,)" their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean = (or between the two,) while accusing or else excusing one another."

A native in Africa, can look at something as simple as a bow, and its arrows, and tell you these did not grow in the forest, they had a maker.

By a persons conscience, and the creation is how God will deal out His judgements to those who never were exposed to the Gospel.

If one had an outright knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ, as so many Americans have, then reject, and trample under foot the Son of God, that would be a grave error.

To overturn one's conscience, in that they call the good things of God evil, and evil, good, will also be fatal. And lastly to worship the creature, and not the Creator, will bring the wrath of God upon a man's head.

Rahab is a good example. She had no formal knowledge of the God of Israel. Rahab said to the two men who went to spy out the land,

Joshua 2:9, "I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faith because of you For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you, and when y came out of Egypt."

What is important concerning this verse is, what Rahab just said had happened 40 years before they came to her home. Yet she knew, and feared.

And James 2:25, said of Rahab, "Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

God is a just God, and His judgements are just. No man will be judged unjustly.

Also the verses you quoted in your article, are totally out of context concerning this subject.

Phil LaSpino

knowing right from wrong and having to believe in a person named Jesus whom you've never met, are irrespective of one another.....

 

[agape101]

I did the same thing msmorality ... peiople begin to worship their 'religion' instead of God. I had vision in my dream last night that we were playing jump rope over the pit of Hell. A messanger appeared to us and told us not to do this, because we would become contaminated. I looked at the jump rope we were holding, and it had this black, tiny, gross, evil things crawling from the pit ont to the jump rope.

I looked at the messanger, and I instantly understood that the Hell was dogmatic, brainwashed. bashing that you described that occurs within religions.

It is important to note, that in this vision the pit contianed no people. It was crusty, gooey, black. charred remenants of evil.

it is not important to note. it was a dream. last night i dreamt that my brother had killed someone.

 

[agape101]

No, that would be like saying 'So every poop someone takes is from God? ... When it is the result of eating. NDE's are the result of dying.

in a round about sort of way, poop comes from God, sure.

 

[plmarquette]

one life, then judgement.....>>> up or <<<<<< down...end story

God of ... yes, on earth as it is in heaven, He is the boss, here and there, everywhere

revelation .... Jesus..... judge the quick and the dead, second death, sins unto death, to everlasting torment....