Mis-conceptions about Patristic Universalism

[msmorality]

In the modern world today, there are many different forms of Universalism, just as their are many different denominations. All believe Christ is Savior, however, each denomination holds to many different views . For instance, Reformed Baptist believe that there is no free will. But Free will Baptist do teach and believe in free will.


We will discuss Patristic Universalism. It is important to note that this view differs from Unitarian Universalism. Unitarians do not believe in any form of punishment or hell. Patristic Universalists believed and taught in limited punishment , with the purpose to heal, transform and reform.

Patristic Universalism Does not teach.


• It does not teach there is no hell
• It does not teach there is no judgment for sin
• It does not teach pluralism
• It does not teach that people go straight to heaven
• It does not reject the Bible as God’s Word
• It does not teach you can be saved apart from faith in Christ


So, lets start with the basics of what the Early Church believed about universal salvation.

Patristic Universalism is the belief that God desires all men to be saved and achieves this desire through His son Jesus Christ. While some forms of Universalism have sprung up that teach there is no hell and that all truth is relative, this is not the universalism I’m defending. The form of universalism I’m advocating is that which was taught by some of the earliest and greatest church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Gregory of Nyssa. It adheres to all the traditional teachings with only a few areas of deviation such as the doctrine of post mortem evangelism and the doctrine of hell.

What Patristic Universalism Teaches:

1. God continues to evangelize to people even after they die (1 Chron 16:34; Rom 8:35-39; 1 Pet 4:6)

The main problem with the traditional view and one that has never been satisfactorily addressed is how can one “accept Christ” if they have never heard of Christ, or were unable to understand the message (i.e. too young, mentally handicapped, etc.). appalling when viewed from the balcony of Middle America where there is a church on nearly every corner and Bibles available in multiple translations. But this not the experience of most people in the world today. Many struggle from day-to-day just to get enough to eat. To suggest they will spend eternity in hell because they didn’t stop and “accept Christ” to me is not only ludicrous but highly arrogant and extremely uncaring. Given the environment most people live in throughout the world, a belief in post-mortem evangelism is the only thing that makes sense. After all, didn’t Paul tell us that Christ is the God of both the living and the dead (Rom 14:9)?

2. Everyone will be judged when they die (Matt 12:36; 16:27; Rom 2:16; 14:10-12; 1 Cor 3:10-15; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:12-13)
No honest believer would suggest they were perfect here on earth and if that’s true, how can we say any of us are ready for heaven? We will all come before God with much “wood, hay, and straw” (1 Cor 3:12) that will need to be “burned up” (v. 15) prior to entering through heaven’s gates. The problem I see with modern evangelism is the idea that once someone has said the “sinner’s prayer,” they are immune from all punishment. Unfortunately for many believers, this results in a lazy faith – the kind of faith that produces indifference to others and apathy about one’s own spiritual health. So contrary to the popular view that Universalism minimizes or completely eliminates judgment for sin it actually takes a stronger stance than the traditional view by taking the passages seriously that talk about the believer’s accountability to God. What this means to the believer in terms of the type of punishment nobody knows. All I can say for sure is that there will be a process of removing the dross from the silver for every person.

3.The purpose of hell is remedial not retributive (Prov 3:12; Heb 12:7-11; Rev 3:19)
Closely linked with the belief that all will be saved is the understanding that the purpose of hell is remedial. Rather than simply a place where non-believers are discarded and forgotten, hell actually serves the purpose of helping to bring about reconciliation with God. This means that even “believers” might spend some time in the purifying fires of hell to prepare them for heaven by removing any remaining “hay” or “straw” (1 Cor 3:10-15). Christ is our savior and we cannot be saved apart from Him, but that doesn’t mean that all who profess Him are ready for heaven. Think of believers you know of who “aren’t there yet.” If non-believer’s can’t live anyway they want to and be saved, why should we think believers can? Sometimes Christians abuse the grace of God by believing they’re already in heaven and so become more focused on worldly things. Christian Universalism reminds everyone that none of us are “there yet.”


4. The duration of hell is limited not eternal (Psalm 30:5; 77:7-9; Lam 3:31-32; Matt 6:14-45)
If the purpose of hell is to restore the sinner then obviously its duration cannot be eternal. I know the classic argument has always been that a crime committed against an eternal God must be punished with an eternal sentence but this concept completely breaks down when we remember that the Bible describes degrees of punishment for sinners. How can there be degrees of eternality? Is the lesser offender slapped in the face for all eternity while the more offensive sinner is burned for all eternity?


5.. Everyone will eventually be saved (John 1:29; Rom 11:25-26, 32; 1 Tim 4:10)
This is not to say there is no hell or that people are not held accountable for their sins, but only that after the proper punishments have been administered whether they be medicinal, pedagogical, or purificatory, then all will be reconciled to God.

 

[LaSpino3]

Msmorality, Respectfully, your comments do not line up with the Scriptures. I had recently posted an article concerning "Second chance." If you have a moment, examine it.

Man's Conscience, and God's creation.

The following does not speak of the Mosaic law, but the law of right and wrong, the laws of morality.

For those who have never had any direct Divine revelation, are given some light concerning the Creator. A measure of light burns in each man's conscience. Their conscience posses a sense of right and wrong.

Rom.2:14-15, "When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness."

A community having no direct revelation from God is now a community that is a law unto themselves. Not accountable to any other law outside their community. They are not to be judged by any dispensation other than that which they live. Their conduct within the community in which they live, will be that which they are judged by.

A community having a natural justice in their debates, in their written laws, their courts, their duties, and in their morals. This is the light that God has given to them. Discerning correctly between right and wrong. Accountable only to the Lord for their moral conduct concerning these matters.

Concerning the creation.

Rom.1:19, "That which may be known of God is manifest = (evident) in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

Those who live in the jungles of Africa, waste-lands of the Artic, can see with his eye the creation: its order, beauty, function, each part working within the whole.

A creation perfect in beauty, in design, in operation. No one will be able to cop a plea of, Not guilty! when presented with the evidence of Supreme God, the evidence of his existence, is the world we live in.

Rom.1:20, "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Scientist, nature worshippers, all giving the glory of God to another.
Nature itself, is the demonstrator of the Creators power, and majesty.

The invisible, things unseen, made know to us by God's visible works, and therefore should be understood by our senses. Can only be perceived as coming from a Divine Creator.

Rom.2:15, "The work of the law written in their heart = (man's heart,)" their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean = (or between the two,) while accusing or else excusing one another."

A native in Africa, can look at something as simple as a bow, and its arrows, and tell you these did not grow in the forest, they had a maker.

By a persons conscience, and the creation is how God will deal out His judgements to those who never were exposed to the Gospel.

If one had an outright knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ, as so many Americans have, then reject, and trample under foot the Son of God, that would be a grave error.

To overturn one's conscience, in that they call the good things of God evil, and evil, good, will also be fatal. And lastly to worship the creature, and not the Creator, will bring the wrath of God upon a man's head.

Rahab is a good example. She had no formal knowledge of the God of Israel. Rahab said to the two men who went to spy out the land,

Joshua 2:9, "I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faith because of you For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you, and when y came out of Egypt."

What is important concerning this verse is, what Rahab just said had happened 40 years before they came to her home. Yet she knew, and feared.

And James 2:25, said of Rahab, "Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

God is a just God, and His judgements are just. No man will be judged unjustly.

Also the verses you quoted in your article, are totally out of context concerning this subject.

Phil LaSpino

 

[msmorality]

Msmorality, Respectfully, your comments do not line up with the Scriptures. I had recently posted an article concerning "Second chance." If you have a moment, examine it.

Man's Conscience, and God's creation.

The following does not speak of the Mosaic law, but the law of right and wrong, the laws of morality.

For those who have never had any direct Divine revelation, are given some light concerning the Creator. A measure of light burns in each man's conscience. Their conscience posses a sense of right and wrong.

Rom.2:14-15, "When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness."

A community having no direct revelation from God is now a community that is a law unto themselves. Not accountable to any other law outside their community. They are not to be judged by any dispensation other than that which they live. Their conduct within the community in which they live, will be that which they are judged by.

A community having a natural justice in their debates, in their written laws, their courts, their duties, and in their morals. This is the light that God has given to them. Discerning correctly between right and wrong. Accountable only to the Lord for their moral conduct concerning these matters.

Concerning the creation.

Rom.1:19, "That which may be known of God is manifest = (evident) in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

Those who live in the jungles of Africa, waste-lands of the Artic, can see with his eye the creation: its order, beauty, function, each part working within the whole.

A creation perfect in beauty, in design, in operation. No one will be able to cop a plea of, Not guilty! when presented with the evidence of Supreme God, the evidence of his existence, is the world we live in.

Rom.1:20, "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Scientist, nature worshippers, all giving the glory of God to another.
Nature itself, is the demonstrator of the Creators power, and majesty.

The invisible, things unseen, made know to us by God's visible works, and therefore should be understood by our senses. Can only be perceived as coming from a Divine Creator.

Rom.2:15, "The work of the law written in their heart = (man's heart,)" their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean = (or between the two,) while accusing or else excusing one another."

A native in Africa, can look at something as simple as a bow, and its arrows, and tell you these did not grow in the forest, they had a maker.

By a persons conscience, and the creation is how God will deal out His judgements to those who never were exposed to the Gospel.

If one had an outright knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ, as so many Americans have, then reject, and trample under foot the Son of God, that would be a grave error.

To overturn one's conscience, in that they call the good things of God evil, and evil, good, will also be fatal. And lastly to worship the creature, and not the Creator, will bring the wrath of God upon a man's head.

Rahab is a good example. She had no formal knowledge of the God of Israel. Rahab said to the two men who went to spy out the land,

Joshua 2:9, "I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faith because of you For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you, and when y came out of Egypt."

What is important concerning this verse is, what Rahab just said had happened 40 years before they came to her home. Yet she knew, and feared.

And James 2:25, said of Rahab, "Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

God is a just God, and His judgements are just. No man will be judged unjustly.

Also the verses you quoted in your article, are totally out of context concerning this subject.

Phil LaSpino

Hello Phil.

I replied earlier today on the thread on second chances..

It all depends upon the model you subscribe. And for 22 years, I was a Southern Baptist and believed the traditional model. That is until I was convicted of a certain situation I was personally involved . When I took a step back and saw how my theology promoted exclusive , controlling , manipulative interpretations of the bible, it was life changing, and most important Faith changing.

So based on that model, any other view is going to appear as ' wrong '. We all are swayed through the model we believe is correct and view scripture through that lens. So, really, not one of us, unless we are God can claim to be without error. We are fallible humans. All we can do is the best we can and follow the path that helps us Love God and love our neighbor as yourself.

When I took a good hard look at 22 years in the ' traditional ' model I saw that I did not love God ( I loved a book and enjoyed bashing people with the book we call the bible ). I saw my error as the same as teachers of the law. ' Loving the letter, and missing the spirit'...

I understand where you are coming from and if you are opposed to other views, I have no intention of changing your view. I have no interest in bickering for the sake of remaining exactly where I am, and where you are..

 

[NEW SONG]

I disagree.


1 Corinthians 2 14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

Msmorality, Respectfully, your comments do not line up with the Scriptures. I had recently posted an article concerning "Second chance." If you have a moment, examine it.

Man's Conscience, and God's creation.

The following does not speak of the Mosaic law, but the law of right and wrong, the laws of morality.

For those who have never had any direct Divine revelation, are given some light concerning the Creator. A measure of light burns in each man's conscience. Their conscience posses a sense of right and wrong.

Rom.2:14-15, "When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness."

A community having no direct revelation from God is now a community that is a law unto themselves. Not accountable to any other law outside their community. They are not to be judged by any dispensation other than that which they live. Their conduct within the community in which they live, will be that which they are judged by.

A community having a natural justice in their debates, in their written laws, their courts, their duties, and in their morals. This is the light that God has given to them. Discerning correctly between right and wrong. Accountable only to the Lord for their moral conduct concerning these matters.

Concerning the creation.

Rom.1:19, "That which may be known of God is manifest = (evident) in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

Those who live in the jungles of Africa, waste-lands of the Artic, can see with his eye the creation: its order, beauty, function, each part working within the whole.

A creation perfect in beauty, in design, in operation. No one will be able to cop a plea of, Not guilty! when presented with the evidence of Supreme God, the evidence of his existence, is the world we live in.

Rom.1:20, "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Scientist, nature worshippers, all giving the glory of God to another.
Nature itself, is the demonstrator of the Creators power, and majesty.

The invisible, things unseen, made know to us by God's visible works, and therefore should be understood by our senses. Can only be perceived as coming from a Divine Creator.

Rom.2:15, "The work of the law written in their heart = (man's heart,)" their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean = (or between the two,) while accusing or else excusing one another."

A native in Africa, can look at something as simple as a bow, and its arrows, and tell you these did not grow in the forest, they had a maker.

By a persons conscience, and the creation is how God will deal out His judgements to those who never were exposed to the Gospel.

If one had an outright knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ, as so many Americans have, then reject, and trample under foot the Son of God, that would be a grave error.

To overturn one's conscience, in that they call the good things of God evil, and evil, good, will also be fatal. And lastly to worship the creature, and not the Creator, will bring the wrath of God upon a man's head.

Rahab is a good example. She had no formal knowledge of the God of Israel. Rahab said to the two men who went to spy out the land,

Joshua 2:9, "I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faith because of you For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you, and when y came out of Egypt."

What is important concerning this verse is, what Rahab just said had happened 40 years before they came to her home. Yet she knew, and feared.

And James 2:25, said of Rahab, "Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

God is a just God, and His judgements are just. No man will be judged unjustly.

Also the verses you quoted in your article, are totally out of context concerning this subject.

Phil LaSpino

 

[Reine]

When I took a good hard look at 22 years in the ' traditional ' model I saw that I did not love God ( I loved a book and enjoyed bashing people with the book we call the bible ). I saw my error as the same as teachers of the law. ' Loving the letter, and missing the spirit'...

I did the same thing msmorality ... peiople begin to worship their 'religion' instead of God. I had vision in my dream last night that we were playing jump rope over the pit of Hell. A messanger appeared to us and told us not to do this, because we would become contaminated. I looked at the jump rope we were holding, and it had this black, tiny, gross, evil things crawling from the pit ont to the jump rope.

I looked at the messanger, and I instantly understood that the Hell was dogmatic, brainwashed. bashing that you described that occurs within religions.

It is important to note, that in this vision the pit contianed no people. It was crusty, gooey, black. charred remenants of evil.

 

[Reine]

Also, I hate to keep posting this, but these are evidences of peiple who have been there... and it seems to support what you are saying msmoralilty:

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

 

[msmorality]

I did the same thing msmorality ... peiople begin to worship their 'religion' instead of God. I had vision in my dream last night that we were playing jump rope over the pit of Hell. A messanger appeared to us and told us not to do this, because we would become contaminated. I looked at the jump rope we were holding, and it had this black, tiny, gross, evil things crawling from the pit ont to the jump rope.

I looked at the messanger, and I instantly understood that the Hell was dogmatic, brainwashed. bashing that you described that occurs within religions.

It is important to note, that in this vision the pit contianed no people. It was crusty, gooey, black. charred remenants of evil.

Wow !

Karen , after having this shown to you, how do you feel about those who think if you don't hold the fear of ' hell ' over people they will increase in rebellion ?

I see the threat of ' hell' as being na invitation to rebel..

What are your thoughts ?

 

[msmorality]

Also, I hate to keep posting this, but these are evidences of peiple who have been there... and it seems to support what you are saying msmoralilty:

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

You know, a lot of people blow off this type of ' evidence'. And I was one of them, but you know what, a very well respected Orthodox Christian Scholar has used this information in his Apologetic Ministry to provide evidence that we are more than physical bodies. The evidence supports an after life.

Having studied NDE for 30 plus years, each account has a common theme, unconditional love of God. I also noticed that very dogmatic people who ' believed ' end up having negative NDE..Like Kennith Hagin..Did you read about his ?

And one of my Favorites is Howard Storm and Angie Fenimore.

You should take a look at this , it reminds me of what you have learned in your investigative studies.
www.whatthehellbook.com/2011/08/16/where-did-hell-come-from/

 

[Reine]

Wow !

Karen , after having this shown to you, how do you feel about those who think if you don't hold the fear of ' hell ' over people they will increase in rebellion ?

I see the threat of ' hell' as being na invitation to rebel..

What are your thoughts ?

Oh, I completely agree. Threatening people with anything, incuding the threat of 'Hell' is an invitation to rebellion. This kind of dictator like attitute of telling people they are going to Hell, makes them resist that which under normal functional conversation would spark someone's interest. My own interactions with people are proof of this, as I have approached people from both ends. I also find that being free to choose, and not being condemned makes people want to be bettter and leads to a path of true spirituality that Jesus was trying to teach. The message of Jesus is being applied because it is lost in convestions that are only about being damned and other dogma. My vision was a clearly telling me not to rub elbows with Christians that are diseased with dogma and think they know everything. Their minds are closed. The message is to go to the people who are lost or have been abused by religion. The message is a living example of love.

 

[Reine]

You know, a lot of people blow off this type of ' evidence'. And I was one of them, but you know what, a very well respected Orthodox Christian Scholar has used this information in his Apologetic Ministry to provide evidence that we are more than physical bodies. The evidence supports an after life.

Having studied NDE for 30 plus years, each account has a common theme, unconditional love of God. I also noticed that very dogmatic people who ' believed ' end up having negative NDE..Like Kennith Hagin..Did you read about his ?

And one of my Favorites is Howard Storm and Angie Fenimore.

You should take a look at this , it reminds me of what you have learned in your investigative studies.
www.whatthehellbook.com/2011/08/16/where-did-hell-come-from/

Thanks for the link, I'm going to read it... in my reading of the Near Death website, I have found them saying things that I have found to be true, that God has presented to me in one way or another. It also says that your position that you take on earth is what you will find in your Heaven. It reminds me of Jesus saying that what standard you use to measure will be measured back to you.

 

[msmorality]

Oh, I completely agree. Threatening people with anything, incuding the threat of 'Hell' is an invitation to rebellion. This kind of dictator like attitute of telling people they are going to Hell, makes them resist that which under normal functional conversation would spark someone's interest. My own interactions with people are proof of this, as I have approached people from both ends. I also find that being free to choose, and not being condemned makes people want to be bettter and leads to a path of true spirituality that Jesus was trying to teach. The message of Jesus is being applied because it is lost in convestions that are only about being damned and other dogma. My vision was a clearly telling me not to rub elbows with Christians that are diseased with dogma and think they know everything. Their minds are closed. The message is to go to the people who are lost or have been abused by religion. The message is a living example of love.

This puts everything in prescriptive on what is the most important..LOVE and just simple love. It always impressed me that when Jesus was at the well, getting water from the Samaritan women , He didn't expect her to get to His level, He was loving and kind . No mention of believing him or going to hell. And those He did talk to more stern were the believers..

 

[msmorality]

Thanks for the link, I'm going to read it... in my reading of the Near Death website, I have found them saying things that I have found to be true, that God has presented to me in one way or another. It also says that your position that you take on earth is what you will find in your Heaven. It reminds me of Jesus saying that what standard you use to measure will be measured back to you.

Yes. And it reminds me of if you show no mercy none will be shown to you..So many things, and it is easier to focus on others faults, rather than our own. And when I held to a more traditional view, my focus was more on others faults, not my own. So how often did I work on my own short comings..not very much. I have a lot to work on, but now I have more freedom to do so, before I was too wrapped up in saving people from hell. It scared me.. Now, I am learning to love more judge less...

 

[Reine]

Yes. And it reminds me of if you show no mercy none will be shown to you..So many things, and it is easier to focus on others faults, rather than our own. And when I held to a more traditional view, my focus was more on others faults, not my own. So how often did I work on my own short comings..not very much. I have a lot to work on, but now I have more freedom to do so, before I was too wrapped up in saving people from hell. It scared me.. Now, I am learning to love more judge less...

I agree, I also find so much freedom in 'not having Hell looming over my head.' I can breath now, and focus on becomming who God created me to be. This person is so much better than the Old one, who was so critical of others and always felt oppressed. This oppression led to a need to continually justify myself due to that type of doctrine that was used to pick people apart. It was negative and fault finding.... and I felt like it was my job or something to do the same. I am glad God rescued me from that.

 

[Jpark]

Also, I hate to keep posting this, but these are evidences of peiple who have been there... and it seems to support what you are saying msmoralilty:

Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife

So every NDE is from God?

 

[Reine]

So every NDE is from God?

No, that would be like saying 'So every poop someone takes is from God? ... When it is the result of eating. NDE's are the result of dying.

 

[Jpark]

NDE's are the result of dying.

Then how can they be reliable?

Surely even death is from God.

 

[Reine]

Then how can they be reliable?

Surely even death is from God.

Wouldn't that mean that if death is from God, Experiences of being dead for a time would also be reliable? The only thing that would make them unreliable is if the people themselves were lying. I have read through the information and concluded that not every person on there is lying.... some of them and most likely most of them are telling the truth IMO.

 

[glen55]

Msmorality, Respectfully, your comments do not line up with the Scriptures. I had recently posted an article concerning "Second chance." If you have a moment, examine it.

Man's Conscience, and God's creation.

The following does not speak of the Mosaic law, but the law of right and wrong, the laws of morality.

For those who have never had any direct Divine revelation, are given some light concerning the Creator. A measure of light burns in each man's conscience. Their conscience posses a sense of right and wrong.

Rom.2:14-15, "When the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness."

A community having no direct revelation from God is now a community that is a law unto themselves. Not accountable to any other law outside their community. They are not to be judged by any dispensation other than that which they live. Their conduct within the community in which they live, will be that which they are judged by.

A community having a natural justice in their debates, in their written laws, their courts, their duties, and in their morals. This is the light that God has given to them. Discerning correctly between right and wrong. Accountable only to the Lord for their moral conduct concerning these matters.

Concerning the creation.

Rom.1:19, "That which may be known of God is manifest = (evident) in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

Those who live in the jungles of Africa, waste-lands of the Artic, can see with his eye the creation: its order, beauty, function, each part working within the whole.

A creation perfect in beauty, in design, in operation. No one will be able to cop a plea of, Not guilty! when presented with the evidence of Supreme God, the evidence of his existence, is the world we live in.

Rom.1:20, "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Scientist, nature worshippers, all giving the glory of God to another.
Nature itself, is the demonstrator of the Creators power, and majesty.

The invisible, things unseen, made know to us by God's visible works, and therefore should be understood by our senses. Can only be perceived as coming from a Divine Creator.

Rom.2:15, "The work of the law written in their heart = (man's heart,)" their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean = (or between the two,) while accusing or else excusing one another."

A native in Africa, can look at something as simple as a bow, and its arrows, and tell you these did not grow in the forest, they had a maker.

By a persons conscience, and the creation is how God will deal out His judgements to those who never were exposed to the Gospel.

If one had an outright knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ, as so many Americans have, then reject, and trample under foot the Son of God, that would be a grave error.

To overturn one's conscience, in that they call the good things of God evil, and evil, good, will also be fatal. And lastly to worship the creature, and not the Creator, will bring the wrath of God upon a man's head.

Rahab is a good example. She had no formal knowledge of the God of Israel. Rahab said to the two men who went to spy out the land,

Joshua 2:9, "I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faith because of you For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you, and when y came out of Egypt."

What is important concerning this verse is, what Rahab just said had happened 40 years before they came to her home. Yet she knew, and feared.

And James 2:25, said of Rahab, "Was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

God is a just God, and His judgements are just. No man will be judged unjustly.

Also the verses you quoted in your article, are totally out of context concerning this subject.

Phil LaSpino

Romans 11 is a good chapter to discern what happens to those considered enemies of the gospel, it seems to match with the christian religion being the ones blinded today, who think God paid for all sin but not for all sinners.
All the same lump molded by the potter, who will be victorious over all sin in due time.

Grace, Glen.

 

[Hillsage]

how do you feel about those who think if you don't hold the fear of ' hell ' over people they will increase in rebellion ?

I see the threat of ' hell' as being na invitation to rebel..

What are your thoughts ?

I know you asked Reine, but I'd like to share a little of my testimony.

I got my girlfriend pregnant and 'had to' marry her. But after a divorce at 19 as a Catholic, I was left with "keep coming to church but you can't take communion, you can't get remarried unless she dies....oh yeah be sure and put your money in the collection plate." With that image of God being presented to me, I pretty much decided that I would go to hell with the rest of my friends. And if I was going, then I was going to make sure I was worthy of it. For the next 4 years it was drinking, drugs (using/dealing), grand theft, sex, VD, and smuggling. IOW I went pretty wild. So I guess that 'threat of hell' was a big fat zero of a deterrent in my case.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Dogmatic people often don't want there to be any possibility to experientialy test and verify if the dogma they proclaim is true ( i.e. aligns with actual after death experience) or false. NDEs provide a possibility of testing and the experimental results don't always lead one to the conclusions that people might hold to based on blind belief in dogma. I would argue that out of body experiences or OBEs can also provide the same and for that reason are also held to be dangerous, heretical , or misleading.

Some say "no need for experience I have my interpretation of a book... that's all I need." Others test and verify.