Miracles in the Bible...when do they become believable?

[steve78]

Is that what the Salvation Army teaches these days? I have been involved in a number of churches for many years and I have never witnessed anything like that at all.

No that's not what they teach at all. The Salvation Army is very moderate and that's why i feel so comfortable there. My faith is at an all time low at the moment due to two traumatic life events in the past two years. I generally don't feel comfortable in most other churches.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No that's not what they teach at all. The Salvation Army is very moderate and that's why i feel so comfortable there. My faith is at an all time low at the moment due to two traumatic life events in the past two years. I generally don't feel comfortable in most other churches.

I didn't want to be facetious. I want just to understand where you are coming from. I believe that there is a vast difference between religion and genuine Christianity. Up to 50% of church members (including the Salvation Army, by the way) have just religion instead of being genuinely converted to Christ. This is why there are very low standards of Christian conduct in many of our churches. The characteristic of a genuinely converted Christian is that there is no fear at all in them, they don't feel controlled, and are not motivated by obligation, fear of hell or punishment, or sense of duty in their faith toward God.

Good pastors and ministers will relate to their people on the basis of grace and power, not condemnation and judgment. This can be the difference between religious hypocrites and genuine believers. The hypocrites trade on fear and control through judgment and condemnation to try to get "bums on seats" in their churches. Although it is right to warn people that there is a hell for those who reject Christ, they also have to be told that God is a good God and His way of getting people to repent of their sins and be saved is through kindness, mercy, grace, and gentleness. The Scripture says that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.

Judgment and condemnation says that if we sin we will go to hell. Grace and power says that if we sin and confess it to God, He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us. Genuine believers are not sin, judgment, or hell conscious. They are Jesus conscious. They love and walk with Jesus. If all churches stood by that, preached and practiced it, you would find going to other churches a much more pleasant and fulfilling experience.

 

[FireDragon76]

Is that what the Salvation Army teaches these days? I have been involved in a number of churches for many years and I have never witnessed anything like that at all.

I think that notion has some merit, though it can be taken too far. Religion has often been used by those in power to control other people, this is plainly obvious just studying history.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think that notion has some merit, though it can be taken too far. Religion has often been used by those in power to control other people, this is plainly obvious just studying history.

There are just as many professing Christians who are religious hypocrites in our churches as there are genuine believers.

 

[steve78]

Judgment and condemnation says that if we sin we will go to hell. Grace and power says that if we sin and confess it to God, He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse us. Genuine believers are not sin, judgment, or hell conscious. They are Jesus conscious. They love and walk with Jesus. If all churches stood by that, preached and practiced it, you would find going to other churches a much more pleasant and fulfilling experience.

I would find going to other churches more fulfilling if i was not expected to leave all intelligent reasoning and science behind once i walked through the doors and believe in a flat earth that was 6000 years old, that dinosaurs were on Noah's ark and the earth was made in seven 24 hour days, Aliens don't exist, all nonsense that can be disproved by science yet it must be true cause the bible, which i will point out was written by sinful men, says so.

Lets not forget i am expected to hate gay people and adopt sexist attitudes towards women.

Not forgetting that too many Christians vote for and support some really vile scumbag politicians.

It's little wonder that at times that i feel like leaving the faith. If it was not for the Salvation Army and also wanting to dip into progressive christianity i would have done so.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would find going to other churches more fulfilling if i was not expected to leave all intelligent reasoning and science behind once i walked through the doors and believe in a flat earth that was 6000 years old, that dinosaurs were on Noah's ark and the earth was made in seven 24 hour days, Aliens don't exist, all nonsense that can be disproved by science yet it must be true cause the bible, which i will point out was written by sinful men, says so.

Lets not forget i am expected to hate gay people and adopt sexist attitudes towards women.

Not forgetting that too many Christians vote for and support some really vile scumbag politicians.

It's little wonder that at times that i feel like leaving the faith. If it was not for the Salvation Army and also wanting to dip into progressive christianity i would have done so.

I think that you should forget about all that and concentrate on getting your relationship with Christ on a sound foundational footing, and once that has happened, all the other stuff will sort itself out.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've encountered quite a mixed bag of held beliefs on this subject. Some track from the NT onwards, some from Genesis 1:1 (my view) and there are various views in-between.

So what say you fellow Christian? Do you have some 'cut off' or 'start point' where the Miracles recorded in the Bible are believable or unbelievable to you?

And for purposes of the OP so we are all on the same sheet of paper...

Miracle
A miracle, broadly defined, is any action in time where the normal operation of nature is suspended by the agency of a supernatural action.

Further definitions
An interference with Nature by supernatural power. -- C. S. Lewis

An event in which God temporarily makes an exception to the natural order of things, to show that God is acting. -- Richard Purtill

A miracle is an event which is not producible by the natural causes that are operative at the time and place that the event occurs. -- William Lane Craig
​

https://www.theopedia.com/miracle

Edit added a quote from @Tree of Life which elaborates on the definition of Miracle:

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And please let's avoid semantics. I think the above outlines what we are talking about that is Miracles.

The Poll will have some definition which can drive the discussion. If someone wants to recommend adding a response please do and I will consider it.

God Bless you all!

What's wrong with admiting that miracles in the Bible are unbelievable, and that we rely upon God's grace for the faith we have? Why must everything fit into a rationalistic system where human reason becomes the measure of all things?

 

[steve78]

I think that you should forget about all that and concentrate on getting your relationship with Christ on a sound foundational footing, and once that has happened, all the other stuff will sort itself out.

That's difficult at the moment. I am no longer the man i was. I am fighting a war against a very dangerous and cunning earthly enemy (not a real war with guns and bombs, this is a different kind) battle scarred, broken and tired of life. I need peace but its hard to find that in God that when many in my church are working against me.