• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Millions of Years- a salvation issue?

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,717.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But it is the most well maintained, and as such is the most accurate,

In some cases the MT is superior, but in some cases the LXX is superior. In some cases the MT is not the most well maintained. And you didn't answer one of my pevious objections: what do we do about Luke's use the LXX genealogy?

It used to be the case that the MT was considered superior to the LXX in all instances where the texts differed. But that's not the case anymore thanks to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 
Upvote 0

ThisBrotherOfHis

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2013
1,444
115
On the cusp of the Border War
✟2,181.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In some cases the MT is superior, but in some cases the LXX is superior. In some cases the MT is not the most well maintained. And you didn't answer one of my pevious objections: what do we do about Luke's use the LXX genealogy?
Do you not understand that Luke's genealogy is Mary's, not Joseph's? Why? Because the line from David to Joseph was cut off because of the godlessness of Jehoiachin in the early 500s BC. Jeremiah cursed the main branch of the Solomonic line.
Jeremiah 22, NASB
30 "Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man down childless,
A man who will not prosper in his days;
For no man of his descendants will prosper
Sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.' "
This curse is considered by some Jewish commentators as the reason that Zerubbabel, the rightful Solomonic king during the time of Nehemiah, was not given a kingship under the Persian empire. Jeremiah's curse is the reason that the Solomonic genealogy in Matthew 1 is the genealogy of Jesus' adopted father, Joseph, while the genealogy in Luke 3, that of Mary, is from Solomon's brother Nathan. Both genealogies are correct.
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,717.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you not understand that Luke's genealogy is Mary's, not Joseph's?


This isn't even the issue at hand. I don't care about the different genealogies in the NT as I don't have a problem with them - but Luke's genealogy list is still from the LXX. I know this because of his inclusion of "Cainan" in his list as the son of Arphaxad.
 
Upvote 0

ThisBrotherOfHis

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2013
1,444
115
On the cusp of the Border War
✟2,181.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This isn't even the issue at hand. I don't care about the different genealogies in the NT as I don't have a problem with them - but Luke's genealogy list is still from the LXX. I know this because of his inclusion of "Cainan" in his list as the son of Arphaxad.
You're basing all our misconceptions on what is obviously a copyist's error? Good grief! Your objections were settled so long ago as to be small and insignificant footnotes in the history of biblical scholarship. And the citation of the "Cainan" non-issue is typical of those who strive to disprove inerrancy. So what exactly are your real objectives in this discussion?
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,717.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You're basing all our misconceptions on what is obviously a copyist's error? Good grief! Your objections were settled so long ago as to be small and insignificant footnotes in the history of biblical scholarship. And the citation of the "Cainan" non-issue is typical of those who strive to disprove inerrancy.

What on earth are you talking about? What "copyist error" are you talking about? What objections were settled long ago so as to be small and insignificant footnotes?

I'm not trying to use "Cainan" to argue against inerrancy. Are you capable of discussing things without flying off the rails? I didn't say the citation of "Cainan" was an issue of any sort. I don't think it is. I do think it shows that Luke is using the genealogies from the LXX, which I don't think should present a problem for anyone. I don't have a problem with this and don't think it's an issue of any sort. I'm probably going to have to repeat this again in a few posts aren't I?

Good grief.

I'm going to re-assert my primary argument against the idea in this thread that even though a young earth might not be a salvation issue, it means those who reject a young earth have a problem with biblical authority. My arguments are these:

(1) Neither a young earth or old earth point of view is supportable from the text. The reason is becuase the text makes no claim either way.
(2) A young earth point of view requires a literal, historical reading of the genealogies. However the genealogies are not intended to be literal, historical statements, rather they are intended to be theological statements about theologically significant events in Israel's history.
(2a) My first piece of evidence, that I can't seem to communicate well, is that the genealogies, specifically the numbers in the genealogies, are different across the existant OT manuscripts (the MT, LXX, SP...). The are different in ways that cannot be attributed to scribal mistakes. Why are they so different? If the genealogies were suppsed to be a literal historical account of the entire human family tree and eath's history, why did so many different scribes come up with so many different numbers? Why not just copy the numbers as you found them? I think the reason is becuase the numbers are not and never were meant/intended to be a literal timeline of earth's history. They are meant to be used to highlight the theologically significant events in Israel. Using the various timelines in the various manuscripts, important events in Israel's history always fall on significant numbers/dates (ie, they are easily divisible by things like 7, 10, 49, 50, 100, 1000, etc..). Regardless of the manuscript used, they all use this technique.

I think some people may have a problem with what the author intends to say vs what we think they ought to be saying and how we think they should say it.


Let me also start a list of things I have not said:
(a) The bible is in error
(b) The genealogies in the NT are a problem
(c) Luke is using Joseph's genealogy
 
Upvote 0

ThisBrotherOfHis

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2013
1,444
115
On the cusp of the Border War
✟2,181.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Are you capable of discussing things without flying off the rails?
Funny, I was thinking the same thing of you. I haven't seen anything remotely resembling consistency from you since we started talking.
 
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟262,717.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

Ringo84

Separation of Church and State expert
Jul 31, 2006
19,228
5,252
A Cylon Basestar
Visit site
✟121,289.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The Bible is not a science textbook and wasn't written as one. If you think that God set the process of evolution into motion, you're not going to hell.

It may come as a shock to some, but when we get to heaven, there's not going to be a doctrinal checklist on which our entry into heaven will be based.
Ringo
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
49
Pa
✟6,506.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The Bible is not a science textbook and wasn't written as one. If you think that God set the process of evolution into motion, you're not going to hell.

It may come as a shock to some, but when we get to heaven, there's not going to be a doctrinal checklist on which our entry into heaven will be based.
Ringo

It is adding to the Bible and shows a lack of faith. It show one preferred the answer of men to that of God, which is a salvation issue. What else did not happen the way the Bible says? Did Jesus really die at all, maybe he was beaten and taken down before death. Now we see the dangers of adding. If you can not trust creation "from dust man came" then you can not trust any of it.
 
Upvote 0

Ringo84

Separation of Church and State expert
Jul 31, 2006
19,228
5,252
A Cylon Basestar
Visit site
✟121,289.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's pretty clear that there is literal history in the Bible (such as the Crucifixion, events of Chronicles, etc), and there is poetry and allegory. The creation story in Genesis is an example of the latter. It was not written as a science lesson for how the world began, but a story handed down through the ages about God creating the universe.

Not taking such a story absolutely literally does not show a lack of faith.
Ringo
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
49
Pa
✟6,506.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It's pretty clear that there is literal history in the Bible (such as the Crucifixion, events of Chronicles, etc), and there is poetry and allegory. The creation story in Genesis is an example of the latter. It was not written as a science lesson for how the world began, but a story handed down through the ages about God creating the universe.

Not taking such a story absolutely literally does not show a lack of faith.
Ringo

Man cam from dust and to dust he will return. poetry right. and the woman come from the mans rib more poetry. but people coming from apes that is believable :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
49
Pa
✟6,506.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Man didn't "come from" ape. They have a common ancestor.
Ringo

you say that as fact,however, it is theory a best guess, not fact. Where is your faith In what men say or what God says? Seems people who preach evolution instead of creation or along side it have their faith divided between men and God.
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
49
Pa
✟6,506.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It is a fact.

Nobody "preaches" evolution. It is a scientific theory that happens to fit the facts.
Ringo

No it is not a fact there is no evidence, It would appear you put your faith in men, saying something is a fact that even people in the field admit is theory and there is no proof.
 
Upvote 0

ThisBrotherOfHis

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2013
1,444
115
On the cusp of the Border War
✟2,181.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No. Unlike you, I trust established fact and scientific evidence:

Gorilla genome analysis reveals new human links | Science | theguardian.com
Ringo
th_ROFL.gif


Although chimps and humans are indeed closest kin, 15% of the human genome more closely matches the gorilla's. We share more in common with a pig than we do a gorilla. "Science" of this ilk sees what it wants to see, not the truth.
 
Upvote 0