Millenial reign question...

[B1inHim]

Did you ever consider a possibility that the Ezekiel temple is there for the false Messiah to come to and claim to be the Messiah?

The temple MUST be rebuilt!
http://www.christianforums.com/t7488184-9/#post56037596

I did not say this, it was a quote from another poster and after reviewing my post, you will notice that I removed my answer

 

[LastSeven]

Do you mean end-times before the first resurrection?

Or, do you mean end-times before the second resurrection?





.

I believe the "end times" refers to the time after the millennium, before the second resurrection. If there are 7,000 years then the years leading up to the 6,000th year can not be the times of the end.

 

[zeke37]

Let's simplify the argument a bit. We know that before the end of this world there will be one more millennium. As we call it "the millennium" or "the millennial reign". We also know that since Adam there have been approximately 6,000 years, so with the last millennium tacked onto the end that will make 7,000 years.

The last thousand years will be slightly different due to Satan being locked up, but nevertheless those thousand years still have to come and go. We can't just skip them or ignore them. People will live and die and new babies will be born during this time. There is no reason to think otherwise.

I disagree...
no babies or death in the Millennium.

one mis-translated prophetic hebraism (symbolic phrase) has led to that mis-conception.

[So, given a 7,000 year span, when would you say is the time of the end? After 6,000 years, or after 7,000? Sounds like a silly question to me, but I can't figure out why it's not obvious to everybody else.

the time of the end, or latter years, is just before the last day.

that last day, lasts 1000 years to us, and is called the Millennium.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

I disagree...
no babies or death in the Millennium.

one mis-translated prophetic hebraism (symbolic phrase) has led to that mis-conception.


the time of the end, or latter years, is just before the last day.

that last day, lasts 1000 years to us, and is called the Millennium.

Brother Zeke,

While your ability to quote Scripture in near perfect context impresses me to the utmost, i am however disappointed in your seeming lack of vision.

Please brother do not take this the wrong way. I envision us being able to bear children in the Kingdom. A child is of course the Lord's reward for our love for our spouse, and although our utmost love is directed at our Lord I have to believe He will allow for us to receive the blessings of more children.

Although I have no Scriptural proof of such, I cannot help but trust this feeling as inspired.

Your brother,
charles

 

[truthseekeratl]

Good explanation Covenantheart

 

[LastSeven]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7429462-16/#post56038011

You posted:

Revelation 20:7-9
Zephaniah 3:8
2 Peter 3:8-10

How do any of those verses tell us anything about the Sabbath millennium? I said "People will live and die and new babies will be born during this time." Are those scriptures supposed to disprove my statement?

 

[LastSeven]

I disagree...
no babies or death in the Millennium.

one mis-translated prophetic hebraism (symbolic phrase) has led to that mis-conception.

Where do you see any evidence that there will be no babies and no death in the millennium?

the time of the end, or latter years, is just before the last day.

that last day, lasts 1000 years to us, and is called the Millennium.

If you believe the millennium is the last day, then you must believe that we are all resurrected sometime during the millennium.

John 6:54
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”​

And you must believe that the time of judgment also occurs sometime during the millennium.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.​

 

[NightHawkeye]

I disagree...
no babies or death in the Millennium.

one mis-translated prophetic hebraism (symbolic phrase) has led to that mis-conception.

Sure seems to me like that contradicts Ezekiel 44, Zeke.

Ezekiel 44:22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before. 23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. 24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. 25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves. 26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days. 27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.
​

Ezekiel 44 doesn't talk about children, but it certainly talks about marriage and death. I'm inclined to believe that children are a part of that as well.

Also, given the numerous "ungodly" people who surround the camp of the saints at the end of the millennium, I'm not sure what the point of the millennium would be if there was no birth or death.

Am I missing something here, Zeke?

.

 

[zeke37]

Brother Zeke,

While your ability to quote Scripture in near perfect context impresses me to the utmost,

i am however disappointed in your seeming lack of vision.

:o well, I have reason to write what I do.

Please brother do not take this the wrong way. I envision us being able to bear children in the Kingdom. A child is of course the Lord's reward for our love for our spouse, and although our utmost love is directed at our Lord I have to believe He will allow for us to receive the blessings of more children.

Although I have no Scriptural proof of such, I cannot help but trust this feeling as inspired.

Your brother,
charles

I respect you Bro...no offense taken

When the Lord lands on Earth, at the beginning of the Millennium
all flesh is changed incorruptible.
they are changed to be like the angels.
angels do not marry or have children with each other.
and they do not die. (at least not until the lake of fire!)

Flesh and blood cannot stand in the Lord's presence, in His Glorified form.
and the Lord is reigning and ruling here in the Millennium.
everyone is changed...good bad and inbetween.

that said, I do indeed think that the firstfruits will have children in the Millennium,
but spiritual ones, not physical...not babies

iow, anyone that they help get to the good side in the Millennium,
becomes their child, spiritually speaking.

 

[zeke37]

Where do you see any evidence that there will be no babies and no death in the millennium?

Luk20:34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
39Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.

1Cor15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If you believe the millennium is the last day, then you must believe that we are all resurrected sometime during the millennium.

John 6:54
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
​

I believe that the ressurection happens at death...as Luk20 teaches
we put on a new body at death...a heavenly/spiritual one.....
or, if we are alive at His Coming, we are changed to be like them in heaven

Now, those spiritual bodies in heaven are "raised" here at His Coming...
hence the term.

the firstfruits and the marked ones at the beginning of the day,
and the rest of the dead at the end.

And you must believe that the time of judgment also occurs sometime during the millennium.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
​

for the firstfruits, at the beginning,
for the rest, at the end.

 

[zeke37]

Sure seems to me like that contradicts Ezekiel 44, Zeke.

Ezekiel 44:22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before. 23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. 24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. 25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves. 26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days. 27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.
​

Ezekiel 44 doesn't talk about children, but it certainly talks about marriage and death. I'm inclined to believe that children are a part of that as well.

perhaps I should not have implied that there was only one prophetic OT prophet
who used NOW mis-interpreted hebreaisms and symbolic figures of speech.

Ez44 is one of my favorite scriptures...
it gives the sons of the Zadok their roles...
(that is who I believe is the 144,000 and the firstfruits that return with the Lord)


I really do not think that the 1st passage you highlighted is literal at all.
it certainly is relevant, but not literal....
i don't pretend to know everything, a thought...maidens are virgins...
and this is specifically talking about the firstfruits, many of which are already literally married in this world.


the dead....well, I believe that means the spiritually dead fooled ones of the last generation...
the Zadok are only allowed to go personally and help their spiritually dead family members during the Millennium...
IMO as a reward for their service.

but for that, they have to leave the presence of the Lord in the Millennial temple....
and then be cleansed for a week!

i'm sure, a very hard thing to do!

Also, given the numerous "ungodly" people who surround the camp of the saints at the end of the millennium, I'm not sure what the point of the millennium would be if there was no birth or death.

Am I missing something here, Zeke?

.

there is plenty of ungodly people here now hawk!
it is those same very ungodly people (alive today) that I believe will surround the camp at Millennium's end,
since I believe all flesh is changed incorruptible at the last/7th/Godly trump at Christ's Coming....

the firstfruits (sons of Zadok) teach the rest the truth...reign and rule...(immortal)

 

[LastSeven]

Luk20:34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
39Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.

1Cor15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How do you know any of that refers to the millennium? Aren't you just making an assumption?

The earthly Kingdom of God begins on the new Earth, after the millennium. The following verses describe the scene on the new earth.

Revelation 21:3 "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Revelation 22:3 "The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city"

When Rev 20 says "they reigned with Christ a thousand years" it doesn't tell us where they will reign. If they are physically with Christ during this time, then we know their reign is in heaven because Christ will stay in heaven until the time to renew all things (Acts 3:21). If they are on earth, then they reign with Christ in their hearts, again because Christ will stay in heaven until the time to renew all things. Either way, Jesus stays in heaven until the time to renew all things.

2 Timothy 4:1
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:

This tells us that judgment, his appearing and his kingdom all come at the same time. We know that judgment happens after the millennium (Rev 20) and we know that Jesus will not appear until the time for the new earth (Act 3:21) therefore we can surmise that his kingdom also does not come until that time.

I believe that the ressurection happens at death...as Luk20 teaches
we put on a new body at death...a heavenly/spiritual one.....
or, if we are alive at His Coming, we are changed to be like them in heaven

Luke 20:34-37
Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels

Again, you are assuming that he is talking about the millennium. Jesus talks about the age to come but is there any scriptural evidence that "the age to come" refers to the millennium? I don't think so.

And even if he is talking about the millennium, he is only saying that those who are resurrected from the dead (which would be the martyrs who did not take the mark of the beast) will become like the angels. He doesn't say that all the people living during that time will become like the angels.

If this is indeed talking about the millennium (which I doubt, because I think he's talking about the second and most important resurrection here) and the resurrected martyrs rule during this time, then who are they ruling over? They would be ruling over regular folks who have babies, grow old and die.

the firstfruits and the marked ones at the beginning of the day,
and the rest of the dead at the end.

for the firstfruits, at the beginning,
for the rest, at the end.

You keep talking about the firstfruits being part of the first resurrection. Who do you consider to be "firstfruits" and what biblical evidence is there that they will be part of the first resurrection?

My Bible says that only those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ and did not take the mark of the beast are part of the first resurrection. Why should we believe that this description is not complete?

Also, I don't understand why people think there are two judgments. There is absolutely zero evidence of that in the Bible. It only talks about a judgment day at the end, not two judgment days. I think that entire concept is something that people want to believe so they try very hard to cling to that belief regardless of any scriptural evidence.

 

[B1inHim]

My Bible says that only those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ and did not take the mark of the beast are part of the first resurrection. Why should we believe that this description is not complete?

Also, I don't understand why people think there are two judgments. There is absolutely zero evidence of that in the Bible. It only talks about a judgment day at the end, not two judgment days. I think that entire concept is something that people want to believe so they try very hard to cling to that belief regardless of any scriptural evidence.

You are correct, that is exactly what the bible says...

and I could not agree with you any more about this agenda that some have taken up that is not sound doctrine.
Many of them and one for sure will not even reveal who they are following, like it should be some kind of special secret. I am not talking about following Lord Jesus but who they are mentored by.

His servant

 

[zeke37]

How do you know any of that refers to the millennium? Aren't you just making an assumption?

Hi
let's try to converse without making judgements or trying to belittle each other, ok? even subtle ones

assumptions? no

the ressurection of the dead firstfruits happens at His Coming at the beginning of the Millennium.

the 7th trump...

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


the judgements and wrath lasts 1000 years to us,
or a day to God

The earthly Kingdom of God begins on the new Earth, after the millennium.

the Millennium is a different time....no flesh....
it is the lead up to the eternity, where God weans out all evil.

I'm sure you have some pretty strong opinions...and reasons for them,
however, I just do not agree with them all...

The following verses describe the scene on the new earth.

Revelation 21:3 "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."

Revelation 22:3 "The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city"

I agree, but that does not show my position incorrect.

When Rev 20 says "they reigned with Christ a thousand years" it doesn't tell us where they will reign. If they are physically with Christ during this time, then we know their reign is in heaven because Christ will stay in heaven until the time to renew all things (Acts 3:21). If they are on earth, then they reign with Christ in their hearts, again because Christ will stay in heaven until the time to renew all things. Either way, Jesus stays in heaven until the time to renew all things.

well, He stays in heaven until the final trump/last trump/7th trump.
after that, He is here.....forever!


9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

side note, the Lord is on the Throne, but the bible does not say that the Lamb is...
infact it distinguishes between them

the same can be seen in Rev14,
which shows the Lord landed on Mt Zion
with His gathered election,
before the Wrath is poured out

making it before the end of the 1000 years and before the final judgement

2 Timothy 4:1
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:

This tells us that judgment, his appearing and his kingdom all come at the same time.

i have no problem with that at all. no contradiction.
that final day is a long time.....1000 years

We know that judgment happens after the millennium (Rev 20)

no....we do not....


we know that FINAL JUDGEMENT happens after the Millennium

where the elect are not subject to the second death,

that means they are NOT judged then

that is the Final Judgement, (second death)

and the firstfruits get that judgement, the promise of not being subject to it,
at the beginning of the Lord's Day, not the end.


rewards...that's another story

and we know that Jesus will not appear until the time for the new earth (Act 3:21) therefore we can surmise that his kingdom also does not come until that time.

no we do not know that.
He arrives 1000 years before the New earth

the restitution of all things begins at the beginning of the Millennium

Luke 20:34-37
Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels

Again, you are assuming that he is talking about the millennium. Jesus talks about the age to come but is there any scriptural evidence that "the age to come" refers to the millennium? I don't think so.

please stop infering that I "assume"...
we all should learn how to converse with others properly....

if I "assume" i'll let ya know! ok?


when is the ressurection? it is at the 7th trump.
the 7th trump begins the Millennium.

Rev11:18....

And even if he is talking about the millennium, he is only saying that those who are resurrected from the dead (which would be the martyrs who did not take the mark of the beast) will become like the angels. He doesn't say that all the people living during that time will become like the angels.

actually IMO you err...
the martyrs are only part of the group...and they are martyrs of the past, like the beheaded John the Baptist, used for an example


the other part of the group is the ones that did not take the mark during the trib...
and are going to be alive, to be gathered to Christ without dying as per 1Cor15/1Thes4



many folks like to wrap them all together into one group,
but that is incorrect.

Rev20:4 speaks of those who died for their faith,
AND
the alive ones who go through the trib and do not take the mark.
(they are gathered to Christ AT THE CHANGING OF 1COR15/SIEZING of 1Thes4)

The bible does not teach that they died in the trib.
the left behind series teaches that

If this is indeed talking about the millennium (which I doubt, because I think he's talking about the second and most important resurrection here) and the resurrected martyrs rule during this time, then who are they ruling over? They would be ruling over regular folks who have babies, grow old and die.

nope...they are ruling over all the ones that were alive at Christ's Coming, but were not gathered to Him...

they will be changed as all flesh is to be changed at Christ's Coming.


the non firstfruits

the ones that took the mark

and many of those, God Himself blinded (2Thes2) so he could save them later in the Lord's Day (Millennium). 1Cor5

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

You keep talking about the firstfruits being part of the first resurrection. Who do you consider to be "firstfruits" and what biblical evidence is there that they will be part of the first resurrection?

well, do a simple word study on firstfruits...7-8 passages I think...
They are defined in Rev5/20

the alive portion of the firstfruits are the 144,000 and witnessing elect.
the dead part is in heaven waiting to come back with Christ as per 1Thes4

the gathering together of elect from heaven and earth of Mar13

that is not an end of Millennium event, but rather an end of tribulation event

My Bible says that only those who were beheaded for their testimony of Christ and did not take the mark of the beast are part of the first resurrection.

mine doesn't

Why should we believe that this description is not complete?

you are free to believe what ever you want.
I think it has a lot to do with the bible versionS that we use...
most are doctrinally driven...

that is why I stick to the KJV and a Strong's Concordance

my bible has the word, "AND", as a seperator...
it is called a polyscendendant, and is used in Gen1 as well, very easy to see...

the word AND seperates the groups.....

the specific mentioning of "beheaded" is meant to IMO draw us to John the Baptist, and other martyred early Christians

the beheaded ones are of the past...possibly right up to t6he trib, but not in the trib.

Satan and his locust army have restrictions....
one of those is killing anyone literally in the trib....Rev9

and protection to God's witnessing elect is promised in Luk21

Also, I don't understand why people think there are two judgments. There is absolutely zero evidence of that in the Bible. It only talks about a judgment day at the end, not two judgment days. I think that entire concept is something that people want to believe so they try very hard to cling to that belief regardless of any scriptural evidence.

the firstfruits are JUDGED before the 1000 years end...
the second death has no bearing on them...
meaning simply that they are not Judged at Millennium's end...as the others are.

they were chosen for their role before the foundations of this age were even set up


but for everyone else that is NOT a firstfruit....
the second death is a possibility, (that of the soul in hell)
depending on what The Father Judges at Millennium's end.
based on what happens in the Millennium

after all, if there is a first death, and a second death...

and there is first fruits...what makes ya think there will not be second fruits

after all , the Saviour is here with His elected teachers....

 

[zeke37]

You are correct, that is exactly what the bible says...

and I could not agree with you any more about this agenda that some have taken up that is not sound doctrine.
Many of them and one for sure will not even reveal who they are following, like it should be some kind of special secret. I am not talking about following Lord Jesus but who they are mentored by.

His servant

why not just say what you mean, instead of infering...

i have never held secretive who my bible teacher is.

 

[B1inHim]

why not just say what you mean, instead of infering...

i have never held secretive who my bible teacher is.

OK, who is it?

 

[NightHawkeye]

OK, who is it?

ROTFL.

I'll take correction in scripture from any man willing to show me the verse.

Oops ...

... I meant any person ...

... show me the verse ... show me the verse ... show me the verse ...

 

[LastSeven]

Zeke, I do not mean to belittle. Sometimes people are offended when I speak but please put on a thicker skin when reading my posts. When it comes to arguing theology, the harder I push, the harder people push back and that forces all of us to thoroughly examine our own beliefs. So I don't like to beat around the bush, but believe me there is no harm intended. You are my brother.

Let's continue.

you said:
the firstfruits are JUDGED before the 1000 years end...
the second death has no bearing on them...
meaning simply that they are not Judged at Millennium's end...as the others are.

IMO this is the root of the problem right here. If you think judgment = death then everything else in Bible prophecy gets distorted. Because then you have to look for a reason why Christians are not present on judgment day, and that just leads to all kinds of things that are not supported by scripture. Again, not trying to belittle, just being up front and honest about this.

And honestly for the life of me I can't figure out why people think death and judgment are the same thing because they are clearly different words with different meanings.

Furthermore the Bible clearly tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. It does not say that judgment is the second death. It only says that for some people the lake of fire is the result of judgment.

If we can not agree on this one thing then it's no wonder we are miles apart. Well, maybe not miles apart. There are some things we agree on. Just can't think of any right now.

 

[LastSeven]

This one's for you Zeke.

Daniel 7:22
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Judgment was given to the saints. Can this really be the second death?

 

[zeke37]

Zeke, I do not mean to belittle. Sometimes people are offended when I speak but please put on a thicker skin when reading my posts. When it comes to arguing theology, the harder I push, the harder people push back and that forces all of us to thoroughly examine our own beliefs. So I don't like to beat around the bush, but believe me there is no harm intended. You are my brother.

no problem...

Let's continue.

you said:
the firstfruits are JUDGED before the 1000 years end...
the second death has no bearing on them...
meaning simply that they are not Judged at Millennium's end...as the others are.


IMO this is the root of the problem right here. If you think judgment = death then everything else in Bible prophecy gets distorted. Because then you have to look for a reason why Christians are not present on judgment day, and that just leads to all kinds of things that are not supported by scripture. Again, not trying to belittle, just being up front and honest about this.

And honestly for the life of me I can't figure out why people think death and judgment are the same thing because they are clearly different words with different meanings.

Judgement day is the second death for those that do not qualify for eternity,
and Reward day for those that do.

Furthermore the Bible clearly tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. It does not say that judgment is the second death. It only says that for some people the lake of fire is the result of judgment.

i agree

If we can not agree on this one thing then it's no wonder we are miles apart. Well, maybe not miles apart. There are some things we agree on. Just can't think of any right now.

we're not that far apart

This one's for you Zeke.

Daniel 7:22
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Judgment was given to the saints. Can this really be the second death?

nope, and i did not think that i infered that it was.

the scripture you posted meaning of judgement
is the same asthe ones that reign and rule with Christ in the Millennium...on earth....
seen also in Ez44 as the sons of the Zadok