Millenial reign question...

[LittleLambofJesus]

It seems pretty clear.

Now in terms of what we call "the great tribulation" I think there is some confusion. Clearly something happens prior to the thousand years, but it is not the great distress that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 24.

So whatever it is that plays out before the thousand years, however bad it may be, it is not the time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. It is not the tribulation.

So you are in essence calling Jesus and Daniel False Prophets

Daniel 12:1 And in that the time, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that.
[Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be a Great Tribulation, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming
[Dan 12:1/Rev 7:14]

Reve 7:14 And I have declared to Him "Lord! of me thou are aware". And He said to me "these are those coming out of the Great Tribulation and they plunge the stoles of them and they whiten [*stoles of] them in the blood of the lambkin
[Dan 12:1/Matt 24:21]

 

[LastSeven]

And there's more evidence to support this.

I think we all know the following passage from Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:15-18
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

This passage describes what most people would consider the tribulation. Scary stuff. But look at how Luke describes the same scene.

Luke 17:30-31
30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

Obviously he is describing the same scene, but he starts this paragraph very differently. Rather than using the abomination that causes desolation as a marker for this time, he says this will happen on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

When is the son of man revealed? Well, I guess this part is up for debate but the following verses seem to imply that we'll have to wait for judgment day.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.

Acts 3:21
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

He must remain in heaven until the time to restore all things. I believe the time to restore all things is the time when heaven and earth pass away and the new heaven and the new earth are created. That is truly the time to restore all things. It is also the time of judgment. And it is at this time that Jesus returns from heaven and is "revealed" as Luke talks about.

All of this of course happens after the thousand years are over.

And anyway, doesn't it make sense that when Jesus talks about the last days he talks about the days after the millennium? Why should we think that he's talking about the days in the sixth millennium when there are still so many more days to come? Wouldn't the last days of this earth be much more important for him to talk about?

Sure, it's more exciting to think that we're "living in the last days" but knowing that there are still at least a thousand years to come, how can we really believe that? These may be the last days before the millennium, but they're not the last days overall.

 

[LastSeven]

So you are in essence calling Jesus and Daniel False Prophets

No. I'm saying that the great tribulation they are talking about happens after the millennium not before.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No. I'm saying that the great tribulation they are talking about happens after the millennium not before.

So you are saying the 2nd Coming of Jesus happens after the Millenium
Sorry, but that doesn't make a lick of sense.... as that would be 2 comings!

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy parousiaV <3952> and the together-finish of the Age"
[Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End

Revelation 19:11 And I saw the heaven having be opened and behold! A horse, white and the One sitting on him being called faithful and true. And in righteousness He is judging and battling.

 

[Justme]

Hi LastSeven;

Now in terms of what we call "the great tribulation" I think there is some confusion. Clearly something happens prior to the thousand years, but it is not the great distress that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 24.

I'm not following here. I'm wondering if you are having trouble fitting a literal 1000 years into your belief system. If the 1000 years was symbolic as is mentioned in 2 Peter 3 would that fit for you?

I can't think of any verses off hand that would give us any clues about before the 1000 year reign.. I'll keep an eye open for anything that may pertain to this.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi LastSeven;

And anyway, doesn't it make sense that when Jesus talks about the last days he talks about the days after the millennium? Why should we think that he's talking about the days in the sixth millennium when there are still so many more days to come? Wouldn't the last days of this earth be much more important for him to talk about?

This is where Rev 14:13 comes in.

Sure, it's more exciting to think that we're "living in the last days" but knowing that there are still at least a thousand years to come, how can we really believe that? These may be the last days before the millennium, but they're not the last days overall.

OR we may not be in any 'last days' at all.

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi LittleLambofJesus;

So you are saying the 2nd Coming of Jesus happens after the Millenium
Sorry, but that doesn't make a lick of sense.... as that would be 2 comings!

If the first resurrection takes place in Heaven where Jesus is, then the great trib/parousia would be after the 1000 year reign with Christ. The resurrectees of the first resurrection would be the 'elect' He brings with Him at the coming, perhaps?

Justme

 

[zeke37]

Hi zeke37;



The resurrectees of the FIRST resurrection of Rev 20:4 and 6 have to be in heaven because before the great trib/parousia that is where Jesus is.

that is where the dead believers are before the 2nd Coming... in heaven with Christ.

they come with Him, to be ressurected back here, in their incorruptible angelic/heavenly bodies

They can't reign WITH Christ if they aren't where He is.

I agree, and He is Coming here

Rev 20:5
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

The first resurrection and the ensuing 1000 year reign has to be OVER ....ended.... before any others can come to life. (be resurrected)

the first ressurection is of the firstfruits alive on earth,
and the dead believers who qualify in heaven.
and that happens at the beginning of the Millennium, right here on earth.

The first resurrection is 1000 years before the next can come to life. Daniel and Matthew tell us that there is a resurrection at the time of distress/coming. There can be NO wicked in the first resurrection and Daniel can NOT be in that first because Daniel would not qualify. Daniell was NOT killed for his estimony of Christ and Daniel had zero connection with resisting the mark or the beast of the tribulation. That lays out the first and second resurrections of the dead and nowhere does the bible talk of THREE resurrections of the dead of mankind or 'other than Jesus.'

we are agreed

I'll gladly go thru the verses you quoted one at a time later, but first let's go thru the verses I put forth.

Justme

which one? Rev20:5

 

[Justme]

Hi zeke37

that is where the dead believers are before the 2nd Coming... in heaven with Christ.

they come with Him, to be ressurected back here, in their incorruptible angelic/heavenly bodies

Let's look again. Before the great trib/parousia resurrection of the dead which is mentioned in Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is still in Heaven according to all Christian denominational doctrine that comes to mind, would that be correct?


Justme

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

After the Second Coming and judgement Jesus will reign on Earth for a thousand years and Satan will be bound for that time, then loosed for a short time.

My question is a simple one: Why? If he is to lead a final rebellion, aren't those reigning with Christ in danger of falling again? Scary thought...

This is somewhat, but not directly Biblical.

Those who received the mob, the dead unbelievers, and the lukewarm will offered a second chance at salvation during this short period. Then they will choose to try and retake the earth with satan, or rejoin the family with Jesus.

 

[LastSeven]

So you are saying the 2nd Coming of Jesus happens after the Millenium
Sorry, but that doesn't make a lick of sense.... as that would be 2 comings!

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy parousiaV <3952> and the together-finish of the Age"
[Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End

Revelation 19:11 And I saw the heaven having be opened and behold! A horse, white and the One sitting on him being called faithful and true. And in righteousness He is judging and battling.

It makes perfect sense. Look at the scripture you quoted. 1 Cor 15:23 "thereafter the end". It clearly says that the rapture will occur just before the end. The end comes not before the millennium, but after.

He does not come before the millennium, only after. So there are not two returns, only one. We just disagree on the timing, that's all.

 

[LastSeven]

Hi LastSeven;



I'm not following here. I'm wondering if you are having trouble fitting a literal 1000 years into your belief system. If the 1000 years was symbolic as is mentioned in 2 Peter 3 would that fit for you?

I can't think of any verses off hand that would give us any clues about before the 1000 year reign.. I'll keep an eye open for anything that may pertain to this.

Justme

I do believe in a literal 1000 years. When I say something happens before the thousand years, I am referring to the mark of the beast. I'm not sure what that is exactly, but it has nothing to do with the great tribulation that Jesus warns us about, because that comes after the thousand years.

We know the mark of the beast exists before the millennium because the martyrs that reign during it, refused the mark.

I am starting to think that the mark of the beast is simply representative of who you follow. You either have the mark of God or the mark of the beast. It's not a micro-chip or anything like that.

The beast is a kingdom, not a man. But is it a man made kingdom, or is it the kingdom of Satan that covers the whole world? I'm leaning towards the latter.

 

[LastSeven]

Hi LittleLambofJesus;



If the first resurrection takes place in Heaven where Jesus is, then the great trib/parousia would be after the 1000 year reign with Christ. The resurrectees of the first resurrection would be the 'elect' He brings with Him at the coming, perhaps?

Justme

That makes sense to me.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Justme Hi LittleLambofJesus;

If the first resurrection takes place in Heaven where Jesus is, then the great trib/parousia would be after the 1000 year reign with Christ. The resurrectees of the first resurrection would be the 'elect' He brings with Him at the coming, perhaps?
Justme

That makes sense to me.

Why wouldn't the resurrection of those 2 witnesses be considered a "first resurrction"
Just curious

Reve 11:11 And after the three days and half-equal, a spirit/breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand/esthsan <2476> (5627) on their feet
and great fear falls upon the ones observing them.

Reve 20:5 The rest of the dead-ones not live until should be being finished the thousand years.
This the Resurrection/ana-stasiV <386>, the First

 

[B1inHim]

Why wouldn't the resurrection of those 2 witnesses be considered a "first resurrction"
Just curious

Rev. 11:12 (KJV)
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

[FONT=&quot]anabaino,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]an-ab-ah'ee-no[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; from Greek 303 (ana) and the base of Greek 939 (basis); to go up (literal or figurative) :- arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

The second ascension maybe...

I mean that is what they did after being told to "come up here", right.

Just a thought, please let's not any of us make this into some kind of federal case OK.

Love,
His servant
[/FONT]

 

[Justme]

Hi LittleLambofJesus;

Why wouldn't the resurrection of those 2 witnesses be considered a "first resurrction"
Just curious

As John is taken thru his vision he sees the SOULS of the potential first resurrectees. It seems to me that the two witnesses would be 'alive' already. Simply put, the bible just plain doesn't clearly reveal who the witnesses are so we are left with our educated guesses.......????

Justme

 

[LastSeven]

Yes, clearly there are some pieces of the puzzle we still have to find places for. Other pieces are much easier to place.

 

[B1inHim]

He does not come before the millennium, only after. So there are not two returns, only one. We just disagree on the timing, that's all.

Twice, for sure.

One time in the air among the clouds;
Rev. 14:14-16 (KJV)
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Which is the same thing as;
1 Thes. 4:16-17 (KJV)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

AND then again, when He actually returns to the surface of the planet.

Rev. 19:11-16 (KJV)
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Which is the same thing as;
Zech. 14:3-4 (KJV)
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Which is most likely this also;
Rev. 14:17-20 (KJV)
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. [18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

TWICE for sure.

Love,
His servant

 

[zeke37]

Hi zeke37

Let's look again. Before the great trib/parousia resurrection of the dead which is mentioned in Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus is still in Heaven according to all Christian denominational doctrine that comes to mind, would that be correct?


Justme

Yes, I agree...

I think we also agree that the first ressurection includes faithfull Christian believers,
and the second would include the likes of Daniel etc.

 

[zeke37]

Zechariah 14


1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Rev 5

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.