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Millenial reign question...

Deadwing

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After the Second Coming and judgement Jesus will reign on Earth for a thousand years and Satan will be bound for that time, then loosed for a short time.

My question is a simple one: Why? If he is to lead a final rebellion, aren't those reigning with Christ in danger of falling again? Scary thought...
 

Covenant Heart

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Millennial Reign Answer:

In the theology of Revelation, the millennium is tied very closely with the parousia. This is shown by the fate of the devil, who finally shares the same fate as the beast and the false prophet – but only after a delay of a thousand years. The consequence of the parousia is the destruction of all evil, but the destruction of evil at its deepest level is portrayed NOT as an immediate consequence, but as one delayed a thousand years.

Before asking WHY this is, we should notice that another effect of the millennium is to separate one aspect of the last judgment (Re 20:4) by a thousand years from the last judgment itself (Re 20:11-13). Comparing Re 20 with one of its major sources, the vision of the divine judgment in Da 7:9, we see that the thrones of Re 20:4 come from Da 7:9, and the opening of the books in Re 20:11 from Da 7:10.

Dan 7 concerns the destruction of the beast that has persecuted the people of God, and the transference of his kingdom to the Son of Man and his people. THIS is what is depicted in Re 19:11-21 (the destruction of the beast) and Re 20:4-6 (the transference of the kingdom to the saints). The negative aspect of the final judgment (Re 19:11-21) requires as its positive counterpart that judgment be given in favor of the martyrs, who must be vindicated and rewarded.

In the contest between the beast and the witnesses of Jesus, the beast SEEMED to triumph, and the martyrs to be DEFEATED. When the heavenly perspective prevails on earth (let your kingdom come!) so that the truth of all things becomes evident, not only must the beast be seen to be defeated, but the martyrs must be seen to triumph. And just as the kings of the earth who shared the beast’s usurped rule are deprived of their kingdom, so the martyrs now reign with Christ.

If you read carefully, you will see that what is said about the martyrs in Re 20:4-6 is strictly limited to what contrasts with the fate of the beast. The martyrs’ evidence, with Christ's, has condemned him. But the divine court vindicates the martyrs. He has been thrown into the lake of fire (19:20) which is the second death (20:14), but they come to life and the second death has no power over them (20:4-6). The kingdom is taken from him, and it is given to them. Now the destroyers of the earth have been destroyed (Re 11:18), and the earth is given to Christ's people to rule with him (Re 20:4 cf. 5:10; Dan 7:18,27).

Life and rule – these two issues on which the contest between the martyrs and the beast focuses – are the SOLE themes of Re 20:4-6; they are merely stated without elaboration.

The theological point of the millennium is solely to demonstrate the triumph of the martyrs that those whom the beast put to death are those who will truly live (eschatologically) and that those who contested his right to rule and suffered for it are those who will in the end rule as universally as he -- and for much longer: a thousand years!

To show that the martyr's triumph in Christ's kingdom is NOT one which evil can again reverse (that it is God's last word for good against evil) the devil is given a last chance to deceive the nations again (Re 20:7-8). But this is no re-run of the rule of the beast. The citadel of the saints proves impregnable (Re 20:9).

John gives the image of the millennium a very specific function. He used it to depict an essential aspect of his concept of the martyrs' victory over the beast. Once the image is taken literally -- such as predicting an actual period in the future history of the world -- it becomes impossible to limit the function of the millennium as John does. Then we have to ask all the questions which interpreters of Revelation ask about the 'millennium,' but for which John gives NO ANSWER, since they are of no interest to the function for which he uses the 'millennium' in his symbolic universe.

Not recognizing that the 'millennium' is a literary device to contrast the ends of the beast and of the martyrs, people are left to ask whom the saints rule, whether they rule from heaven or earth, how eschatological life of resurrection is compatible with an un-renewed earth, who are the nations Satan deceives at the end of the millennium, and on, and on and on. The millennium becomes incomprehensible once we take the image literally.

But there is no more need to take it literally than to suppose that she sequences of judgments (seal openings, trumpets and bowls) are literal predictions. John no doubt expected there to be judgments; but his descriptions of them are imaginative schemes designed to depict the theological MEANING of God's judgments. John expected the martyrs to be vindicated. But the millennium depicts the meaning, rather than predicting the manner of their vindication.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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interpreter

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After the Second Coming and judgement Jesus will reign on Earth for a thousand years and Satan will be bound for that time, then loosed for a short time.

My question is a simple one: Why? If he is to lead a final rebellion, aren't those reigning with Christ in danger of falling again? Scary thought...
The earth is destroyed by fire from heaven. Then a new earth appears but it has no sea. Probably Mars. Anyhow the good guys get to live there for eternity, and the bad guys are cast into the fire.
 
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Deadwing

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The earth is destroyed by fire from heaven. Then a new earth appears but it has no sea. Probably Mars. Anyhow the good guys get to live there for eternity, and the bad guys are cast into the fire.

A new heaven and earth will be created. Therefore Mars goes too. If the bible meant Mars it would have said it. The earth probably had no oceans before the flood - they were caused by God letting the waters inside the earth be released, It says so in Genesis.

The new earth will be a complete new creation. Just because Mars has no oceans doesn't make it a candidate. God is quite able to create a completely new universe.
 
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Deadwing

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Millennial Reign Answer:

In the theology of Revelation, the millennium is tied very closely with the parousia. This is shown by the fate of the devil, who finally shares the same fate as the beast and the false prophet – but only after a delay of a thousand years. The consequence of the parousia is the destruction of all evil, but the destruction of evil at its deepest level is portrayed NOT as an immediate consequence, but as one delayed a thousand years.

Before asking WHY this is, we should notice that another effect of the millennium is to separate one aspect of the last judgment (Re 20:4) by a thousand years from the last judgment itself (Re 20:11-13). Comparing Re 20 with one of its major sources, the vision of the divine judgment in Da 7:9, we see that the thrones of Re 20:4 come from Da 7:9, and the opening of the books in Re 20:11 from Da 7:10.

Dan 7 concerns the destruction of the beast that has persecuted the people of God, and the transference of his kingdom to the Son of Man and his people. THIS is what is depicted in Re 19:11-21 (the destruction of the beast) and Re 20:4-6 (the transference of the kingdom to the saints). The negative aspect of the final judgment (Re 19:11-21) requires as its positive counterpart that judgment be given in favor of the martyrs, who must be vindicated and rewarded.

In the contest between the beast and the witnesses of Jesus, the beast SEEMED to triumph, and the martyrs to be DEFEATED. When the heavenly perspective prevails on earth (let your kingdom come!) so that the truth of all things becomes evident, not only must the beast be seen to be defeated, but the martyrs must be seen to triumph. And just as the kings of the earth who shared the beast’s usurped rule are deprived of their kingdom, so the martyrs now reign with Christ.

If you read carefully, you will see that what is said about the martyrs in Re 20:4-6 is strictly limited to what contrasts with the fate of the beast. The martyrs’ evidence, with Christ's, has condemned him. But the divine court vindicates the martyrs. He has been thrown into the lake of fire (19:20) which is the second death (20:14), but they come to life and the second death has no power over them (20:4-6). The kingdom is taken from him, and it is given to them. Now the destroyers of the earth have been destroyed (Re 11:18), and the earth is given to Christ's people to rule with him (Re 20:4 cf. 5:10; Dan 7:18,27).

Life and rule – these two issues on which the contest between the martyrs and the beast focuses – are the SOLE themes of Re 20:4-6; they are merely stated without elaboration.

The theological point of the millennium is solely to demonstrate the triumph of the martyrs that those whom the beast put to death are those who will truly live (eschatologically) and that those who contested his right to rule and suffered for it are those who will in the end rule as universally as he -- and for much longer: a thousand years!

To show that the martyr's triumph in Christ's kingdom is NOT one which evil can again reverse (that it is God's last word for good against evil) the devil is given a last chance to deceive the nations again (Re 20:7-8). But this is no re-run of the rule of the beast. The citadel of the saints proves impregnable (Re 20:9).

John gives the image of the millennium a very specific function. He used it to depict an essential aspect of his concept of the martyrs' victory over the beast. Once the image is taken literally -- such as predicting an actual period in the future history of the world -- it becomes impossible to limit the function of the millennium as John does. Then we have to ask all the questions which interpreters of Revelation ask about the 'millennium,' but for which John gives NO ANSWER, since they are of no interest to the function for which he uses the 'millennium' in his symbolic universe.

Not recognizing that the 'millennium' is a literary device to contrast the ends of the beast and of the martyrs, people are left to ask whom the saints rule, whether they rule from heaven or earth, how eschatological life of resurrection is compatible with an un-renewed earth, who are the nations Satan deceives at the end of the millennium, and on, and on and on. The millennium becomes incomprehensible once we take the image literally.

But there is no more need to take it literally than to suppose that she sequences of judgments (seal openings, trumpets and bowls) are literal predictions. John no doubt expected there to be judgments; but his descriptions of them are imaginative schemes designed to depict the theological MEANING of God's judgments. John expected the martyrs to be vindicated. But the millennium depicts the meaning, rather than predicting the manner of their vindication.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

Sorry, I believe a thousand years means a thousand years. The book of Revelation isn't a puzzle for theologians to solve. Why not just say the Second Coming instead of parousia. Revelation was written for ordinary people to be able to understand what is to come, to recognise it and be encouraged to stand strong.

Too often people try to make it too complicated, so only people with theological degrees are allowed to comment and understand it. The suffering Church of today understands it better than most undergraduates and bible scholars. Even the Greek in this book is "street" Greek. Some commentators even said it couldn't have been written by John because the grammar and punctuation are poor and he wrote and spoke very good Greek. The fact is he's writing these things down as he sees them and is being told "Write this down..." I think if it had been me it would have been unintelligible - and my handwriting's appalling anyway.

And also there's that verse at the end with the curse in it about adding or taking anything away from it. I don't think John would have dared edit it, do you?
 
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Covenant Heart

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Thanks For The Reply!

I didn’t say the thousand years isn’t a thousand years. True, I do regard this as a symbolic number; but I didn’t make that case on this thread. Why not say ‘Second Coming?’ Done! As for ordinary people understanding what is written and standing firm? We are agreed.

As a Hebrew prophet in the Christian apostolic tradition, John is a canonical writer. So that shouldn’t be at issue here, unless you presume the divine dictation theory of inspiration.

Education may not be the answer, but neither is ignorance. Of that, we have plenty; nor is it confined to the ivory towers of academia. Moreover, the riches of the Revelation will not be exhausted on the first, seventh or seventieth reading. New believer or accomplished scholar, there is more in this book than a lifetime will disclose.

I’m humored that you use the word ‘puzzle;’ I have very often pointed out that the Bible is NOT a jigsaw puzzle, as some may suppose. But I am sure that the structure of the Revelation is very bound up with the meaning of the book. Consider this parallelism:

à The chaste bride, the wife of the Lamb VS the harlot who fornicates with earth’s kings.

à The splendor of God’s glory, VS Babylon’s splendor based on imperial exploitation.

à The water of life and tree of life for the nations VS Babylon’s wine that maddens nations.

à The exclusion of uncleanness and falsehood VS Babylon’s impurities and deceptions.

à The seal of God VS the mark of the beast.

à The wedding feast of the Lamb VS the carrion call to feast on the flesh of man and beasts.

There are other parallels as well. My post showed that much. John uses the thousand years to show a great reversal in how things end. Mr. Beast burns, and we win. Rule is taken from him and is given to the martyrs. As I said, Satan’s release shows that he CAN’T reverse his defeat. The assault fails utterly (Re 20:9), which shows that the martyrs’ life and reign will not be removed. And THERE is the encouragement which, as you say, God’s people need.

Re 20 is based in large part on Da 7; and the kingdom of Da 7:27 (as well as the growing stone of Da 2:44) is an eternal kingdom. If the thousand years is a symbolic number (i.e. ‘the Lord owns the cattle of a thousand hills), then the eternality of the kingdom is no issue. But if the thousand years is EXACTLY a thousand years, then John seems indeed to have done some sanctified editing, since Da 7 on which John’s work is based clearly references NOT a thousand year reign, but an eternal kingdom. That’s literally quite different!

Blessing!

Covenant Heart
 
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Deadwing

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Thanks For The Reply!

I didn’t say the thousand years isn’t a thousand years. True, I do regard this as a symbolic number; but I didn’t make that case on this thread. Why not say ‘Second Coming?’ Done! As for ordinary people understanding what is written and standing firm? We are agreed.

As a Hebrew prophet in the Christian apostolic tradition, John is a canonical writer. So that shouldn’t be at issue here, unless you presume the divine dictation theory of inspiration.

Education may not be the answer, but neither is ignorance. Of that, we have plenty; nor is it confined to the ivory towers of academia. Moreover, the riches of the Revelation will not be exhausted on the first, seventh or seventieth reading. New believer or accomplished scholar, there is more in this book than a lifetime will disclose.

I’m humored that you use the word ‘puzzle;’ I have very often pointed out that the Bible is NOT a jigsaw puzzle, as some may suppose. But I am sure that the structure of the Revelation is very bound up with the meaning of the book. Consider this parallelism:

à The chaste bride, the wife of the Lamb VS the harlot who fornicates with earth’s kings.

à The splendor of God’s glory, VS Babylon’s splendor based on imperial exploitation.

à The water of life and tree of life for the nations VS Babylon’s wine that maddens nations.

à The exclusion of uncleanness and falsehood VS Babylon’s impurities and deceptions.

à The seal of God VS the mark of the beast.

à The wedding feast of the Lamb VS the carrion call to feast on the flesh of man and beasts.

There are other parallels as well. My post showed that much. John uses the thousand years to show a great reversal in how things end. Mr. Beast burns, and we win. Rule is taken from him and is given to the martyrs. As I said, Satan’s release shows that he CAN’T reverse his defeat. The assault fails utterly (Re 20:9), which shows that the martyrs’ life and reign will not be removed. And THERE is the encouragement which, as you say, God’s people need.

Re 20 is based in large part on Da 7; and the kingdom of Da 7:27 (as well as the growing stone of Da 2:44) is an eternal kingdom. If the thousand years is a symbolic number (i.e. ‘the Lord owns the cattle of a thousand hills), then the eternality of the kingdom is no issue. But if the thousand years is EXACTLY a thousand years, then John seems indeed to have done some sanctified editing, since Da 7 on which John’s work is based clearly references NOT a thousand year reign, but an eternal kingdom. That’s literally quite different!

Blessing!

Covenant Heart

I personally take the view that if something is symbolic the bible makes it plain. For example in Rev 1, Jesus' eyes are as flames... This is obviously a simile. Yes, there are certain symbols throughout the bible and all those in Rev can be found elsewhere in the bible and explained. After all, John was steeped in the scriptures. Oh to be like him!

I don't believe John's writing of Revelation is "based" on Daniel, although they are obviously writing about the same things and it wouldn't have been lost on John. This is an unveiling given to John himself, by Jesus himself. And interestingly both Daniel and John are called "Beloved".

I agree with you about the parallels. Read the book of Joshua and see the parallels to Revelation there(seven trumpets, 1/2 hour silence in Heaven etc etc). The book of Ruth is the Gospel itself. The bible is full of puns, hidden codes (the gospel in the names of Adam's sons when you use their Hebrew meanings, for example). The bible has depth that no other secular book or religious text could achieve which shows its authenticity as the word of God (it had to come from an author outside time itself to be able to tell the end from the beginning).

Anyway, back to why isn't Satan just cast into the Lake of Fire after the battle of Armageddon?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The earth is destroyed by fire from heaven. Then a new earth appears but it has no sea. Probably Mars. Anyhow the good guys get to live there for eternity, and the bad guys are cast into the fire.
:angel::angel::angel:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Mars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mars is the fourth planet from the Sun in the Solar System. The planet is named after Mars, the Roman god of war. It is also referred to as the "Red Planet" because of its reddish appearance, due to iron oxide[6] prevalent on its surface.

Mars is a terrestrial planet with a thin atmosphere, having surface features reminiscent both of the impact craters of the Moon and the volcanoes, valleys, deserts and polar ice caps of Earth.
 
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interpreter

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I hold the historicist view, that all 5 Christian horsemen reign for 1000 years. The first 2 have already reigned 1000 years: (1) The Byzantine Empire, founded by St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow, and (2)The Holy Roman Empire, founded by Charles the Great, who rode a red horse and conquered with a great sword.
 
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dana b

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Are you in the millennium kingdom? Well, where do you live. In Christiandom, then your in, outside of European Christian Israel and your out. The Serpent(Dragon, Devil) is today roaming around the rest of the world but he's not allowed back into Christiandom. The millennial kingdom was promiced to those who followed Jesus. So today, after 2000AD we're in it here in Europe. The rest of the world is not.(sad!) Even though America is part of the lost tribes who became Christians, it's Ephraim. And as Rev.7 shows us, Ephraim and Dan arn't sealed. So America fights with the rest. But the other 12 tribes are sealed. Here's a brief analysis of the end of Rev.
Rev.18 - Babylon burns with black smoke for all to see. All the merchants stand and look.
Rev. 19.1 - The people in heaven are the ones in European Christian Israel which is the E.U. With the year 2000AD they breath a sigh of relief.
Rev. 19;7 - says means the "lost sheep of Israel"(Christians) are after their 2000 years of preparation, ready to marry Christ.
Rev. 19.11-14 - The armies of Christiandom have overcome the enemy, Now we in re-generated European Christian Israel will be ruled/will rule with Christ for 1000 years.
Rev.19;20 - The Beast(bad government) and the False Prophet(false profit) are cast out forever from the entire world. Only the Serpent is left as "survival of the fittest", and hes only in the would, not in Christiandom. This is the millennium that was forcast as "thy kingdom come on earth."Matt.6;10
Rev. 20;1 - The Serpent is cast into the world of nonChristians, Asia, South America, Africa ect. But hes out of Christiandom.
Rev. 20;4 - The Christian cultures that developed following Christ over the 2000 years have finally attained their millennium kingdom.
Rev. 20;7 - When the 1000 years are over "survival of the fittest" will try to make one last ploy to take over again, but alas he'll quickly be taken and cast away with the beast and false prophet.
Rev.20;12 - God will revive all the people of all ages and Judge them by their works from the Book of their deeds. Jesus also has a book of those who believed in him which he will save.(the books)
Rev.21 - Describes the millennial kingdom in which we in Eurpean Christian Israel are now living. Theres nothing magic or supernatual about all of this. Everything will still be physically the same but without any trouble for Christiandom. Sound to easy, theres proof available now.
 
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Deadwing

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Are you in the millennium kingdom? Well, where do you live. In Christiandom, then your in, outside of European Christian Israel and your out. The Serpent(Dragon, Devil) is today roaming around the rest of the world but he's not allowed back into Christiandom. The millennial kingdom was promiced to those who followed Jesus. So today, after 2000AD we're in it here in Europe. The rest of the world is not.(sad!) Even though America is part of the lost tribes who became Christians, it's Ephraim. And as Rev.7 shows us, Ephraim and Dan arn't sealed. So America fights with the rest. But the other 12 tribes are sealed. Here's a brief analysis of the end of Rev.
Rev.18 - Babylon burns with black smoke for all to see. All the merchants stand and look.
Rev. 19.1 - The people in heaven are the ones in European Christian Israel which is the E.U. With the year 2000AD they breath a sigh of relief.
Rev. 19;7 - says means the "lost sheep of Israel"(Christians) are after their 2000 years of preparation, ready to marry Christ.
Rev. 19.11-14 - The armies of Christiandom have overcome the enemy, Now we in re-generated European Christian Israel will be ruled/will rule with Christ for 1000 years.
Rev.19;20 - The Beast(bad government) and the False Prophet(false profit) are cast out forever from the entire world. Only the Serpent is left as "survival of the fittest", and hes only in the would, not in Christiandom. This is the millennium that was forcast as "thy kingdom come on earth."Matt.6;10
Rev. 20;1 - The Serpent is cast into the world of nonChristians, Asia, South America, Africa ect. But hes out of Christiandom.
Rev. 20;4 - The Christian cultures that developed following Christ over the 2000 years have finally attained their millennium kingdom.
Rev. 20;7 - When the 1000 years are over "survival of the fittest" will try to make one last ploy to take over again, but alas he'll quickly be taken and cast away with the beast and false prophet.
Rev.20;12 - God will revive all the people of all ages and Judge them by their works from the Book of their deeds. Jesus also has a book of those who believed in him which he will save.(the books)
Rev.21 - Describes the millennial kingdom in which we in Eurpean Christian Israel are now living. Theres nothing magic or supernatual about all of this. Everything will still be physically the same but without any trouble for Christiandom. Sound to easy, theres proof available now.

Sounds like JW speak to me. The twelve tribes are all Jews and that's an end to this replacement theology nonsense. You are not part of any tribe unless you are a Jew. Read Romans 9-11 if you think God tore up his covenant with the Jewish people and made it with Christians instead. God delights in keeping his promises and the one with Abraham was unconditional (he made Abraham sleep and walked it himself, so Abraham doesn't have to do anything to keep in the covenant). If you believe that God tore up His covenant with the Jews, then you are calling Him a liar. The 144,000 will be messianic Jews who will preach the gospel and will be sealed. God is far from finished with the Jewish people.
 
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Deadwing

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This is not the millennial kingdom. I mean really, how could it be? That time has Jesus ruling the Earth and peace. Where is the peace? The world is getting more and more corrupt and depraved. It's still Satan's world until Jesus returns to settle it. He hasn't come yet and that's obvious.
 
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Covenant Heart

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Happen To Know...

Who are you asking that of?

America, part of the lost tribes (i.e., through the British connection).

I do hold covenant theology, but in my understanding, it doesn't work tat way. The so-called 'Europe Christian Israel' of which I read reminds me of other pagan ideologies of blood, race and soil which wrought devastation in the Name of Christ.

On another note, God certainly doesn't cast off his promise; but my reading of Ro 9-11 points to the inclusion of Gentiles INTO the olive, so that they are sustained by the rich, nourishing sap that sustained believing Israel.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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Covenant Heart

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Get It?

...neither had received his mark...and they lived and reigned with Christ ...Rev. 20

'...receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ' (Romans 5:17).

;)

Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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