Millenial reign question...

[vinsight4u]

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[Covenant Heart]

These Look Rather Similar!

...neither received his mark...and they lived and reigned with Christ ...Rev. 20

'...receive the abundance of grace and ... righteousness, and reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ' (Romans 5:17).

Am I just imagining things, or are there some similarities here?

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[Deadwing]

Happen To Know...



America, part of the lost tribes (i.e., through the British connection).

I do hold covenant theology, but in my understanding, it doesn't work tat way. The so-called 'Europe Christian Israel' of which I read reminds me of other pagan ideologies of blood, race and soil which wrought devastation in the Name of Christ.

On another note, God certainly doesn't cast off his promise; but my reading of Ro 9-11 points to the inclusion of Gentiles INTO the olive, so that they are sustained by the rich, nourishing sap that sustained believing Israel.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

I have no idea what you're talking about America being part of the lost tribes through Britain. This almost sounds Mormon. But I think I see where you're going and it's about the two tribes missing from the list about the 144,000. But all the tribes are Jews, not gentiles. We came from Judaism, as our Lord did; but unlike Him we are not Jewish (unless, of course, we are - if you follow me). You have to remember that the twelve tribes are not only a religion but a race.

Yes, we are included into the vine; but we have a different role to play. We are separate, but included. The Jews are still God's chosen people. I'm not saying that the Jews don't need salvation like John Hagee, for instance; but that the Jews will accept Jesus as Meschiach. Many are doing that even now and congregations are sprouting up all over Israel. The church I went to in Jerusalem when I lived there (the first Anglican church in the Middle East) is now a Messianic congregation which I think it wonderful. It's like it completed it's mission to ready the 144,000 tribulation evangelists.

As to the Euro-Christian-Israel thing; I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Deadwing]

Do you believe the martyrs were beheaded at Armageddon (the ch 19 battle) or after it?

Then so too was the timng for them to live before Armageddon.

All saints live before the armies come down from heaven in ch 19.

You need to say who you are addressing, if it is a particular poster.

I persoanlly believe Armageddon happens when Jesus returns. So, the martyrs must be martyred before as there will be no more martyrdom because Jesus then battles Antichrist and his armies and Antichrist and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, Satan is bound for a thousand years and Jesus reigns on the Earth.

 

[Jpark]

After the Second Coming and judgement Jesus will reign on Earth for a thousand years and Satan will be bound for that time, then loosed for a short time.

My question is a simple one: Why? If he is to lead a final rebellion, aren't those reigning with Christ in danger of falling again? Scary thought...

Here is the answer. Their conversion was not genuine.

Not everyone will accept Jesus as Lord. Some will do so without inner commitment. That is why they are susceptible to deception.

 

[Deadwing]

Here is the answer. Their conversion was not genuine.

Not everyone will accept Jesus as Lord. Some will do so without inner commitment. That is why they are susceptible to deception.

Any chance of backing that up with scripture or this an opinion? And are you talking about those born during the millennium?

by the way, this was just a passing inquiry - a small intellectual musing. It really doesn't matter that much. I believe whatever God ordains is good for those who accept His creation and His Son's achievement on the cross and resurrection.

 

[Super Kal]

These Look Rather Similar!

...neither received his mark...and they lived and reigned with Christ ...Rev. 20

'...receive the abundance of grace and ... righteousness, and reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ' (Romans 5:17).

Am I just imagining things, or are there some similarities here?

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

ok, this is taking the verses out of context to try and prove amillennialism.
that is NOT what Revelation 20:4 says. read both in COMPLETE context of one another.

Revelation 20:4
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Romans 5:17
For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.


Revelation 20:4 talks about the mark of the beast on the hand or forehead.
Romans 5:17 talks about salvation through Jesus Christ.
you're using both of these out of context to try and show that they are the same thing... they are not talking about the same thing.

 

[Jpark]

Any chance of backing that up with scripture or this an opinion? And are you talking about those born during the millennium?

by the way, this was just a passing inquiry - a small intellectual musing. It really doesn't matter that much. I believe whatever God ordains is good for those who accept His creation and His Son's achievement on the cross and resurrection.

It's actually from my study notes. Not exactly. I am talking about the remnants of the nations that opposed Christ. They were likely forced to surrender to Jesus, since the armies of the beast were defeated (Revelation 19:19-21).

 

[Deadwing]

It's actually from my study notes. Not exactly. I am talking about the remnants of the nations that opposed Christ. They were likely forced to surrender to Jesus, since the armies of the beast were defeated (Revelation 19:19-21).

But surely the only people left would be those with the Beast's mark. And they have no chance of salvation. If they're fighting, they're fighting against Christ. There won't be any "undecided's" left, will there? Surely not.

Can you imagine the lunacy, arrogance and absolute rebelliousness of actually trying to physically make war on God? Insanity indeed.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Deadwing]

The next return of Jesus is not for Armageddon. Why?

Becuase Jesus must first come back and bring salvation for the church.

9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10: Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thess. 5


So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hebrews 9:28

Jesus is not appearing unto Armageddon. Jesus is first returning unto salvation. So what is said at the starting part of Rev. 19?

Rv:19:1: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Here is about when Jesus appears for the saints.
The wicked see Him too, and will later gather for battle against Him.
But for right then - after the salvation time comes - Jesus will take the saints to heaven, waiting on the time of the vials to begin and get to almost time for Armageddon.

Jesus already brought salvation when He came and died for humanity. If you are talking about a pre-trib rapture, that is a separate debate and there are lots of threads about it.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Covenant Heart]

I’ve Confused You --

by including several streams in my post.

First, when you offered that Dana’s post sounded like ‘JW speak,’ I suggested sounds more like ‘British-Israel speak.’ As BI folk have it, the very word, ‘Brit’ is just enough like ‘berith’ (Hebrew word for ‘covenant’) to suggest to them that the ‘Brits’ are in fact among the lost tribe(s), which makes them (the British) ‘Israelites.’ Hence, ‘British-Israelism.’ That’s why I wondered if Dana’s remark about US people might imply BI tendencies. You are of course correct that Mormons have claimed that Israelites lived on this land. But they did not see this as coming through the US’ historical ties with England (supposedly the people of the ‘berith’). I implied this but should perhaps make it clear that I hold to neither British-Israelism or Mormonism. And I don't know that Dana is BI either. That's more a guess.

Second, I’m neither dispensational nor pre-millennial, So the supposition of a two-track system within separate roles, including so-called ‘tribulation evangelists’ is lost on me. And as a blanket statement, ‘the Jews are still God’s chosen people’ says more than I can affirm from Scripture. Some maintain that so-called ‘Messianic congregations’ defected to Judaism from Christianity. But on that, I’m not sufficiently knowledgeable to argue this either way. Still, it seems odd that a growing ‘Messianic’ movement such as you describe thrives in the face of anti-conversion laws.

I have serious problems with Judaism as a race. I think that this fails to discern how covenant works, and that Abraham is the father of all who have the faith of Abraham. We are the true circumcision who worship Jesus and put on confidence in the flesh (including race). Paul affirms this immediately before discounting pedigree ‘in order to [purpose clause] to have Christ (Ph 3).

In Paul’s understanding, not all who descend from Israel are Israel. This is necessary to vindicate God’s fidelity to his own word (Ro 9:6). This cannot be sacrificed except for most compelling reasons and crushing weight of most exact and incisive exegesis, which is accepted by the church at large. Merely proffering that Jewish practitioners are both religion and race doesn’t cut it.

I appreciate the fact that dispensational believers are careful to guard the premise of grace alone by faith alone for the present age. But the supposition that race may play some part in what God is doing raises questions for some of us as to whether justification by grace alone through faith alone is really a doctrine that is universally applicable to all God’s people. Further to that, Ep 2 discloses that the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile has been broken down so that God might of the two make one, new man. To postulate that at some future time, that wall will be rebuilt and made higher and thicker than ever is also problematic. This raises questions for some of us as to whether other aspects of Christ’s work for us, justification included, might also be undone.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[Covenant Heart]

Hey Kal!

ok, this is taking the verses out of context to try and prove amillennialism.

Revelation 20:4 talks about the mark of the beast on the hand or forehead.

Romans 5:17 talks about salvation through Jesus Christ. you're using both of these out of context to try and show that they are the same thing... they are not talking about the same thing.

Can those who refuse the beast’s mark not also be those who receive grace and righteousness?

Some day, I've got to so study to see how those ideas are developed in these respective book, and on that basis whether there might be a better case for this than is supposed.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[Deadwing]

I’ve Confused You --

by including several streams in my post.

First, when you offered that Dana’s post sounded like ‘JW speak,’ I suggested sounds more like ‘British-Israel speak.’ As BI folk have it, the very word, ‘Brit’ is just enough like ‘berith’ (Hebrew word for ‘covenant’) to suggest to them that the ‘Brits’ are in fact among the lost tribe(s), which makes them (the British) ‘Israelites.’ Hence, ‘British-Israelism.’ That’s why I wondered if Dana’s remark about US people might imply BI tendencies. You are of course correct that Mormons have claimed that Israelites lived on this land. But they did not see this as coming through the US’ historical ties with England (supposedly the people of the ‘berith’). I implied this but should perhaps make it clear that I hold to neither British-Israelism or Mormonism. And I don't know that Dana is BI either. That's more a guess.

Second, I’m neither dispensational nor pre-millennial, So the supposition of a two-track system within separate roles, including so-called ‘tribulation evangelists’ is lost on me. And as a blanket statement, ‘the Jews are still God’s chosen people’ says more than I can affirm from Scripture. Some maintain that so-called ‘Messianic congregations’ defected to Judaism from Christianity. But on that, I’m not sufficiently knowledgeable to argue this either way. Still, it seems odd that a growing ‘Messianic’ movement such as you describe thrives in the face of anti-conversion laws.

I have serious problems with Judaism as a race. I think that this fails to discern how covenant works, and that Abraham is the father of all who have the faith of Abraham. We are the true circumcision who worship Jesus and put on confidence in the flesh (including race). Paul affirms this immediately before discounting pedigree ‘in order to [purpose clause] to have Christ (Ph 3).

In Paul’s understanding, not all who descend from Israel are Israel. This is necessary to vindicate God’s fidelity to his own word (Ro 9:6). This cannot be sacrificed except for most compelling reasons and crushing weight of most exact and incisive exegesis, which is accepted by the church at large. Merely proffering that Jewish practitioners are both religion and race doesn’t cut it.

I appreciate the fact that dispensational believers are careful to guard the premise of grace alone by faith alone for the present age. But the supposition that race may play some part in what God is doing raises questions for some of us as to whether justification by grace alone through faith alone is really a doctrine that is universally applicable to all God’s people. Further to that, Ep 2 discloses that the dividing wall of hostility between Jew and Gentile has been broken down so that God might of the two make one, new man. To postulate that at some future time, that wall will be rebuilt and made higher and thicker than ever is also problematic. This raises questions for some of us as to whether other aspects of Christ’s work for us, justification included, might also be undone.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

Tov meod. I see what you mean now. I thought it was some weird theological term or something. Now ani mevin.

I understand what you're saying about issues with Judaism as a race as well as a faith; but as I understand it, Jews are the only race/religion in one. Yes, I understand what Paul said and I certainly believe that the only way the God is through Jesus Christ.

It gets a bit hard to follow these post when there are so many weird ones; they all roll into one: Mars, 1000 years for each empire (Constantine etc). I only asked a simple question... Never mind.

It's been a slice. Now I'm going to have a Mars bar and read some more of Wendy Alec's Chronicle Of Brothers: The First Judgement or perhaps I'll watch something mindless on DVD.

Have a good day. Thanks for your posts.

DW

 

[dana b]

So, what happened, I posted late last night and I wake up this morning and youve all been talking all night? Well I'm in B.C. Canada. Anyway first I must clear this up. I know about the JWs and about the Bitish Isreal guys. I don't and never have associated with them.

The constant reoccurance of the term Israel in the New Testament such as James 1;1 shows that they are the chosen people not just the "tribe of Judah." But the Tribe of Judah has an important part to play like Jesus's disiple Judus of Judah and today the Lion of Judah on the British coat of arms. This all needs to be understood from the beginning.

Salvation shall, as the Bible shows come to the "Israel of the Law of Moses" which is only the Tribe of Judah today, and to the other 11 lost tribes to whom Jesus sent his diciples.Matt.10;5,6 Matt.15;24 So who became the Christians. Europe.

God has made two communications with mankind through Covenants. The first was by "works" and so we had to earn it. The second was given freely to those who love righteousness. It is by "faith". Rm.2;13-16
The following verse shows this clearly. Two groups- "And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb.."Rev.15;3
In Matt. 27;11 Jesus is asked if he was the "King of the Jews? " He then answered " thou sayest." He didn't say yes. Because he's not that but the King of Israel not just the one tribe.

I too, was once in Jerusalem, checking if the east gate was still closed. That was in 1990. European Christian Israel is Jesus's Christian kindom today. British Israel is just the Tribe of Joseph the son that brings together the re-generation. Rev.19;28 Recently Britain sent the foreign minister to the E.U. But I could't understand this either before I began at the beginning and followed the Bible and history. If you want to see the truth then have patience and continue studying. Since the year 2000AD the mystery has been reavealed for the believers. The mixup of Jews and Israelites is an antichrist plot I suspect. But with vigilance it's easy to see through his misting. dan b