Mid -Acts Dispensational Doctrine

[now faith]

Nothing you've said about Gentiles in Pentecost has any scriptural backing. If it doesn't say there were Gentiles there, then there weren't any Gentiles there. You cannot ASSUME otherwise. Concerning Gentiles at Pentecost, everything you said was an assumption. Standard protestant teaching incorrectly puts Gentiles everywhere in scripture, where, besides a few minor places, like with the woman at the well, the only places in scripture saved Gentiles truly exist in any numbers after Gen 11, are those few thousand (maybe) in Acts that were ALL grafted into Israel, starting with Cornelius, and the billions in the only true Gentile Church, Biblically, that started in Ac28:28 or 70AD - take your pick. As far as 2018 is concerned, I'm talking Protestant Church here. I'm still not sure that anyone that buys into the corrupt, non-Biblical Catholic doctrine is even saved. They believe in Jesus Christ, of course, but there are those non-Biblical salvation attachments that any Bible believer would be uncomfortable with.

Scripturally, it's well settled there were no Gentiles at Pentecost and the first Gentile in Acts was 8 years later. This pretty much destroys Darby's, Scofield's, and Larkin's Acts 2 dispensationalism. Not only was no Gentile church started in Acts 2, no truly Gentile Church was started until the very end of Acts. The fact that saved Gentiles during Acts were grafted into Israel and the fact that no one during Acts had a calling to be in Heaven pretty much wipes out mid-Acts dispensationalism. The Gentile church today started in Ac28:28, which is obvious to any true bible believer who rightly divides.

Those nations being Gentile nations is worthless information. Rome was Gentile but there were a lot of Jews there. Acts 2:5 is the clincher. Jews were in every country. There were ZERO Gentiles in Ac2 and ZERO Gentiles involved until Cornelius, 8 years later. Period.

Ac I could care less about Darby or Scofield, they did not write the Bible and like anyone else but Christ are subject to being wrong.

Acts 2 states their were Men from every nation.
You can clearly see the Gentiles being amazed at what was taking place.

Acts 2: 6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Notice Jews are mentioned singularly with other people.

You may not accept this but it is what it is, Jews were not in every nation nor were they the only people at Pentacost.
The Holy Ghost was poured out first on Jews, but others came to this great move of God.
The Gentiles were hearing the Jews speak in the Gentile native tongue.

Acts 2: 37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Verses 1 through 3 the Holy Ghost fell on the Jews.
Starting at verse 37 the witnesses that were onlookers repented and recieved the Holy Ghost.

The Gentile Churches were planted by Paul, but the Gospel and Holy Ghost were given by God.
There is only one Gospel, not two separated by race.
So even at the first Church founded by Peter their were Gentile people who had salvation.
If you don't believe me ask Paul here are his words:

Galatians 3: 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

What don't you get from this statement?
Why is this hard to grasp?
God Bless You, I hope you know the Lord like I do.
You call me a protestant, I was never Catholic so I have no need to protest.

 

[ac28]

There's really not much to debate. Just show me where in Acts the defining passage is where the church started. I asked an Acts 28 adherent the same thing and never received an answer. I do get replies but not answers.

Ac I could care less about Darby or Scofield, they did not write the Bible and like anyone else but Christ are subject to being wrong.

Acts 2 states their were Men from every nation.
You can clearly see the Gentiles being amazed at what was taking place.

Acts 2: 6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Notice Jews are mentioned singularly with other people.

You may not accept this but it is what it is, Jews were not in every nation nor were they the only people at Pentacost.
The Holy Ghost was poured out first on Jews, but others came to this great move of God.
The Gentiles were hearing the Jews speak in the Gentile native tongue.

Acts 2: 37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Verses 1 through 3 the Holy Ghost fell on the Jews.
Starting at verse 37 the witnesses that were onlookers repented and recieved the Holy Ghost.

The Gentile Churches were planted by Paul, but the Gospel and Holy Ghost were given by God.
There is only one Gospel, not two separated by race.
So even at the first Church founded by Peter their were Gentile people who had salvation.
If you don't believe me ask Paul here are his words:

Galatians 3: 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

What don't you get from this statement?
Why is this hard to grasp?
God Bless You, I hope you know the Lord like I do.
You call me a protestant, I was never Catholic so I have no need to protest.

In all the Acts verses you quoted, the fact that only Jews were involved fits perfectly. The only way a person could read Gentiles into them would be by private interpretation. The Gal verse has absolutely nothing to do with who was involved in Acts 2 - it has to do with individuals in the Jewish Acts church after Ac 10, made up of saved Jews and saved Gentiles grafted into Israel. In Acts 2, there are ZERO Gentiles mentioned. Your argument is extremely weak. Verse 5 shows that Jews were in every country under the sun and vs 10 shows that all involved were either Jews or proselytes, Gentiles who were circumcised and became Jews. The 1st Gentile in Acts was Cornelius in Acts 10, 8 years after Acts 2. Like so many, much of your doctrine seems to be based on assumptions, not scriptural facts. Been spending too much time listening to non-scriptural denominational preachers, like those that preach the existence of hell and that man has a soul. Do you buy into that garbage also?

 

[redleghunter]

In all the Acts verses you quoted, the fact that only Jews were involved fits perfectly. The only way a person could read Gentiles into them would be by private interpretation. The Gal verse has absolutely nothing to do with who was involved in Acts 2 - it has to do with individuals in the Jewish Acts church after Ac 10, made up of saved Jews and saved Gentiles grafted into Israel. In Acts 2, there are ZERO Gentiles mentioned. Your argument is extremely weak. Verse 5 shows that Jews were in every country under the sun and vs 10 shows that all involved were either Jews or proselytes, Gentiles who were circumcised and became Jews. The 1st Gentile in Acts was Cornelius in Acts 10, 8 years after Acts 2. Like so many, much of your doctrine seems to be based on assumptions, not scriptural facts. Been spending too much time listening to non-scriptural denominational preachers, like those that preach the existence of hell and that man has a soul. Do you buy into that garbage also?

Again, where in Acts 28 do we find a definitive creation of a distinct Gentile church vs. Jewish church?

 

[ac28]

Again, where in Acts 28 do we find a definitive creation of a distinct Gentile church vs. Jewish church?

Hope always means resurrection. When the hope is different, everything is different. The hope in Paul's last 7 books is obviously to be resurrected in Heaven

Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Phil 3:20
For our conversation (=citizenship - see Strong's 4175) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Col 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

2Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
_____________________________________________

The only mention of Israel is that there is equality now, which there never was before the end of Acts

Rom 9:4 If these things belonged to Israel, that means they didn't belong to the Gentiles
"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises"

This was the Gentile's situation until the Salvation of God was given to the Gentiles. in Ac 28:28. There is some proof that "The Salvation of God" is Jesus Christ in that verse.

Eph 2:11-12
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

_________________________________________________

This post-Acts ministry is to the Gentiles.

Eph 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 3:1 Note: in
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Eph 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Col 1:27 - THE mystery below was hid in God since the world began. The mystery (of Christ) in Rom 16:25-26 was hidden in the scriptures of the prophets. Note: the hope (resurrection) is in Glory, which is said to be located above the heavens in Ps 8:1

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

_________________________________________

The New Church - The Church Which is Christ's body, where Christ is the Head

Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:24
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:"

I never liked the term "Church" because it's really a very generic word in the Greek, ekklesia, which means a group of people assembled for a specific purpose. It's best called an assembly. The group of pagan silversmiths were an ekklesia. translated assembly. The problem is that the "church" back then had no similarity with what we think of as a "church" today. Today, it's an emotional word. Back then, it didn't mean a building. It was purely a group of like-minded people.

Same with the word "gospel", which simply means "good news" or "glad tidings". We can find many different occurences of good news in the Bible and all are gospels. Usually, a gospel is further explained in it's name: The Gospel of the Kingdom; My Gospel (Paul); Gospel of Salvation (Paul).

_________________________________________

So, I have proven, beyond a doubt, that the Gentiles' hope (resurrection) in Paul's post-Acts epistles is in Heaven. That means that, if there is no one else in the Bible that has a hope of resurrection in Heaven, everything else in Paul's post-Acts epistles is different than any other calling in the Bible.

Therefore, it's your turn. In order to prove I'm wrong, you must find a definitive passage that shows that anyone, anywhere in the Bible, besides Paul's last 7 books - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon, has a hope of resurrection in Heaven. A forewarning: Everyone else in the Bible has a hope of either the Land of the New Jerusalem, period. The NJ is not heaven and it is not mentioned once in Paul's last 7 books.

It is interesting to note that the phrase, "it is written" appears 33 times in Paul's 7 Acts epistles, but not once in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Nothing concerning the church, hope, or calling of this new church is found elsewhere in scripture. Everything about it was hid in God since the world began. The word "Abraham" doesn't appear once. The word "Israel" appears twice: (1) talking about the Gentiles being aliens from the commonwealth during Acts and (2) Paul talking about himself, being of the stock of Israel. The nation Israel is a forgotten topic, a relic of the past, in Paul's last 7 books. The Acts church, with the Gentiles grafted in, as part of Israel, was Jewish. After Acts, the church is essentially all Gentile, with a few converted Jews in the mix. Different church, hope, calling, and a different ethnic group of people.

 

[redleghunter]

Hope always means resurrection. When the hope is different, everything is different. The hope in Paul's last 7 books is obviously to be resurrected in Heaven

Actually the resurrection was preached by Christ in Luke 24:44-49. He commanded to preach this to the Jews first and then the world.

Peter did so on Pentecost as well:

Acts 2: NKJV

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Christ crucified, the Messiah, died and Risen. That's the gospel.

Then again in Acts 3:

Acts 3: NKJV

11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed. 12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretoldthese days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Christ suffered, died and Risen. Again. Faith in His name. That's the gospel.

Acts 4: NKJV

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Again, the very same Gospel message.

Acts 8: NKJV
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.

Isaiah 53 the suffering Servant is preached by Philip. Once again the Gospel.

Acts 10 we come to the first clear preaching of the Gospel to Gentiles:

Acts 10: NKJV

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Gentiles receive the Gospel.

Which of course all of the above lines up with:

1 Corinthians 15: NKJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Paul makes it clear all of apostles preached the same Gospel.

If the Jews did not receive the same Gospel then what did they receive?

The only mention of Israel is that there is equality now, which there never was before the end of Acts

Not accurate. The epistle to the Galatians is estimated to be written in 57 AD during Paul's third missionary tour (Acts 18). It was this letter to the Galatians which stated:

Galatians 3: NKJV
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul was not arrested in Jerusalem until 58 AD (Acts 21)

Acts 28 does not occur until 61 AD.

Time line of Acts: Acts and the Epistles Chronology

Evidence for date of Galatians: Scholars' Dates for Galatians

This was the Gentile's situation until the Salvation of God was given to the Gentiles in Ac 28:28

Acts 28: NKJV
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,

‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’

28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.

30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.

Did Peter preach a different Gospel to Cornelius and family? Did Paul misstate that Jews and Gentiles alike are saved in Ephesians years before this statement?

Or should you actually be for an Acts 13 church start as Paul says the same about the Jews in Acts 13:

Acts 13: NKJV

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, according to your reasoning you should hold to an Acts 13 church start. Which would be AD 47 and not AD 61.

Or should you be Acts 15? The Council of Jerusalem 50 AD:

Acts 15: NKJV

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Pretty clear right there the church was both Gentile and Jewish. And they believed the same Gospel. Peter states "a good while ago" the Gospel was accepted by the Gentiles. We saw such in Acts 10, then again in Acts 14:1 and again in Acts 13:48 and in Acts 11:28.

All of the above we see the Gentiles preached the Gospel and converting.

This post-Acts ministry is to the Gentiles.

It's to everyone Jew or Greek.

Acts 28: NKJV
30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.

So, I have proven that the Gentiles' hope (resurrection) in Paul's post-Acts epistles is in Heaven. That means that, if there is no one else in the Bible that has a hope of resurrection in Heaven, everything else in Paul's post-Acts epistles is different than any other calling in the Bible.

Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Philemon and the Pastoral epistles were written after Acts 28 (61 AD).

The question is "so what?" Galatians where we see no difference between Jew or Greek was written in 57 AD 4 years before Paul reaches Rome and we come to Acts 28.

So quoting prison epistles does not validate your assertion. Add to that all the Acts references above and your assertions of an Acts 28:28 church start is infeasible.

The resurrection was preached as far back as Luke 24 as I stated earlier.

Or is your assertion Peter and the 12 preached a different Gospel to the Jews? If that is your real point then the very same passages I quoted address this to be false as well.

Therefore, it's your turn. In order to prove I'm wrong, you must find a definitive passage that shows that anyone, anywhere in the Bible, besides Paul's last 7 books - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon, has a hope of resurrection in Heaven.

All answered above. What in the world do you think Peter and the apostles were preaching starting on Pentecost and following? Every passage I quoted starting with Acts 2, preached Christ suffered died, Risen and now seated at the Right Hand of God.

 

[redleghunter]

Hope always means resurrection. When the hope is different, everything is different. The hope in Paul's last 7 books is obviously to be resurrected in Heaven

The Hope throughout the NT starting with the Birth of Christ has always been the Resurrection. What other hope is there offered?

Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Exactly. Jesus Christ is sitting at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven right now .

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Phil 3:20
For our conversation (=citizenship - see Strong's 4175) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Col 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Yes all of the above is accurate because Heaven is where Jesus is now and He is our Hope.

2Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Where the King is there is the Kingdom.

 

[redleghunter]

I never liked the term "Church" because it's really a very generic word in the Greek, ekklesia, which means a group of people assembled for a specific purpose.

No ekklesia is specific as used in context of the NT. There is no doubt it refers to baptized believers in Christ as Lord and Savior.

We see church or ekkelsia literally meaning "called out ones" first used in the Byzantine or Majority Text (M) in Acts 2:47 but not in the Critical Text or Alexandrian manuscripts (NU).

However, ekklesia shows up again in Acts 5:11 in both the M and NU texts.

Strong’s Definitions
ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.​

It is used multiple times in the book of Acts to clearly there was a church or assembly of called out ones. What unified the use is those who were called out received the Holy Spirit. In Acts 11 the church at Antioch was the first to be called Christian.

Act 11:26 - And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, G1577 and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.​

In Acts 15 after the Council of Jerusalem, Paul travels to confirm the churches:

Act 15:41 - And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches. G1577​

So there was certainly called out ones assembled (churches) throughout the Levant since Pentecost.
Paul calls the Church the Body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 11.

It's best called an assembly. The group of pagan silversmiths were an ekklesia. translated assembly. The problem is that the "church" back then had no similarity with what we think of as a "church" today. Today, it's an emotional word. Back then, it didn't mean a building. It was purely a group of like-minded people.

Same with the word "gospel", which simply means "good news" or "glad tidings". We can find many different occurences of good news in the Bible and all are gospels. Usually, a gospel is further explained in it's name: The Gospel of the Kingdom; My Gospel (Paul); Gospel of Salvation (Paul).

 

[ac28]

Actually the resurrection was preached by Christ in Luke 24:44-49. He commanded to preach this to the Jews first and then the world.

Peter did so on Pentecost as well:

Acts 2: NKJV

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Christ crucified, the Messiah, died and Risen. That's the gospel.

Then again in Acts 3:

Acts 3: NKJV

11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed. 12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretoldthese days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Christ suffered, died and Risen. Again. Faith in His name. That's the gospel.

Acts 4: NKJV

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Again, the very same Gospel message.

Acts 8: NKJV
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.

Isaiah 53 the suffering Servant is preached by Philip. Once again the Gospel.

Acts 10 we come to the first clear preaching of the Gospel to Gentiles:

Acts 10: NKJV

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Gentiles receive the Gospel.

Which of course all of the above lines up with:

1 Corinthians 15: NKJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Paul makes it clear all of apostles preached the same Gospel.

If the Jews did not receive the same Gospel then what did they receive?


Not accurate. The epistle to the Galatians is estimated to be written in 57 AD during Paul's third missionary tour (Acts 18). It was this letter to the Galatians which stated:

Galatians 3: NKJV
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul was not arrested in Jerusalem until 58 AD (Acts 21)

Acts 28 does not occur until 61 AD.

Time line of Acts: Acts and the Epistles Chronology

Evidence for date of Galatians: Scholars' Dates for Galatians



Acts 28: NKJV
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,

‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;
27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”’

28 “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.

30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.

Did Peter preach a different Gospel to Cornelius and family? Did Paul misstate that Jews and Gentiles alike are saved in Ephesians years before this statement?

Or should you actually be for an Acts 13 church start as Paul says the same about the Jews in Acts 13:

Acts 13: NKJV

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, according to your reasoning you should hold to an Acts 13 church start. Which would be AD 47 and not AD 61.

Or should you be Acts 15? The Council of Jerusalem 50 AD:

Acts 15: NKJV

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Pretty clear right there the church was both Gentile and Jewish. And they believed the same Gospel. Peter states "a good while ago" the Gospel was accepted by the Gentiles. We saw such in Acts 10, then again in Acts 14:1 and again in Acts 13:48 and in Acts 11:28.

All of the above we see the Gentiles preached the Gospel and converting.


It's to everyone Jew or Greek.

Acts 28: NKJV
30 Then Paul dwelt two whole years in his own rented house, and received all who came to him, 31 preaching the kingdom of God and teaching the things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no one forbidding him.




Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Philemon and the Pastoral epistles were written after Acts 28 (61 AD).

The question is "so what?" Galatians where we see no difference between Jew or Greek was written in 57 AD 4 years before Paul reaches Rome and we come to Acts 28.

So quoting prison epistles does not validate your assertion. Add to that all the Acts references above and your assertions of an Acts 28:28 church start is infeasible.

The resurrection was preached as far back as Luke 24 as I stated earlier.

Or is your assertion Peter and the 12 preached a different Gospel to the Jews? If that is your real point then the very same passages I quoted address this to be false as well.



All answered above. What in the world do you think Peter and the apostles were preaching starting on Pentecost and following? Every passage I quoted starting with Acts 2, preached Christ suffered died, Risen and now seated at the Right Hand of God.

NOTHING was answered. Here was what I asked. I have proven, without a doubt, with scripture, that the Gentile church after Acts has a calling of heaven and a hope of being resurrected to Heaven. I say that no one before Ac 28:28, in the entire Bible, ever had a calling of heaven and a hope of being resurrected in heaven. Plus, the church after Acts is a Gentile church, where the church during Acts was a Jewish church, since all saved Gentiles were grafted into Israel. Therefore, everything after Acts is different than before Acts, different hopes, callings, and different people in the Church. The only way you can dispute this is to show me, specifically, in the Bible where anyone before Acts 28:28 had a hope of going to heaven.

You're assuming the Kingdom promised to Israel is in Heaven, but you have no proof. The Kingdom is an earthly Kingdom. It's what was promised to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The King will be on the New Earth, the New Jerusalem, and Heaven. The Kingdom that actually is in Heaven is called The Kingdom of His Dear Son. Show me where any descendant of Abraham ever had a promise of anything except the land on Earth or the NJ that is attached to the New Earth.

One of the best proofs that the earthly Kingdom of Heaven or God is Acts 1:6, where the apostles asked, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" Christ didn't rebuke them for asking this. He basically says that they won't know when this will happen. The Apostles knew exactly what they were asking, since they had just received a 40 day Bible study from the Lord concerning the Kingdom.

I repeat, Show me in scripture where is says, definitively, so there are no doubts, that anyone in the Bible, except for those Gentiles after Acts in Paul's last 7 books, had a hope of going to Heaven. You've beat around the bush, but you've never come close to showing this. Actually, since you or no one else can do this, this is absolute proof that the church after Acts is different than the church during Acts. When the hope and calling are different, everything is different. Except for we Gentiles in Heaven, ALL the rest of saved mankind, who are all Israelites or Gentiles grafted into Israel or those saved during the White Throne Judgement, will either be on the New Earth or the New Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven and docks on the New Earth.

 

[redleghunter]

NOTHING was answered. Here was what I asked. I have proven, without a doubt, with scripture, that the Gentile church after Acts has a calling of heaven and a hope of being resurrected to Heaven. I say that no one before Ac 28:28, in the entire Bible, ever had a calling of heaven and a hope of being resurrected in heaven.

Where the confusion may be is we find the Promise in the Gospel. I have already demonstrated exhaustively the Gospel commanded in Luke 24:44-50 is the very same Gospel preached in Acts 2, Acts 3, Acts 4, Acts 8, Acts 10 (to Gentiles), confirmed as the same way to salvation and promise declared by Peter for Jews and Gentiles in Acts 15. Each one of the passages I quoted has Christ suffered (crucified) died, buried and raised 3 days later. That is the Gospel, that is the Hope the Resurrection preached throughout Acts and in all the apostolic epistles including Peter's epistles.

I then showed that 1 Corinthians confirms this gospel message as for all and not Jews or not only Gentiles. I Corinthians 15 lays out the very same Gospel in all the Acts quotes I already quoted at least twice to you with no response to the content.

I then pointed out 1 Corinthians and Galatians were written historically before Acts 28:28. Galatians showed there is no difference Jew of Gentile. I then showed that 'church' or called out ones, ekklesia was used to describe those who responded to the Gospel, filled with the Holy Spirit and baptized. This ekklesia in context occurs starting in Acts 2 and is used again in Acts 5 and throughout Acts.

Back to 1 Corinthians. The epistle was written in 57 AD. Acts 28 with Paul in Rome is 61 AD

Acts and the Epistles Chronology

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul goes into detail on what our Hope is and what our faith is in:

1 Corinthians 15: NKJV
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

[...]

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

The above written to Jewish and Gentile believers at Corinth AD 57. Acts 28 was AD 61. Paul clearly indicates the one true Gospel earlier in the chapter, and above goes into detail those who believe will "bear the image of the heavenly Man."

All before the magical Acts 28:28 which I showed much earlier is no different than Acts 13 in Paul rejecting the Diaspora Jews at a different location than Rome:

Acts 13: NKJV

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, according to your reasoning you should hold to an Acts 13 church start. Which would be AD 47 and not AD 61.

Plus, the church after Acts is a Gentile church, where the church during Acts was a Jewish church, since all saved Gentiles were grafted into Israel.

I don't know where you get this as the pre-prison epistles address both Jews and Gentiles and as I pointed out in 1 Corinthians above they had the same promise "we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man."
Again, 1 Corinthians and Galatians (no distinction between Jew or Greek) were written BEFORE Acts 28.

Therefore, everything after Acts is different than before Acts, different hopes, callings, and different people in the Church. The only way you can dispute this is to show me, specifically, in the Bible where anyone before Acts 28:28 had a hope of going to heaven.

No this is a false premise for two reasons:

1. You never established the church was different before and then after Acts 28:28. You are operating out of the erroneous assumption the Pauline epistles were all written after Acts 28 as if the NT canon is in chronological order. It is not. I showed you the two historical and scholarly references putting Galatians and 1 Corinthians well before Acts 28 and Paul's journey and imprisonment at Rome.

A Chronological Order of The New Testament Books
Acts and the Epistles Chronology​

2. You hinge your entire argument on Acts 28:28-29: “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves.
All this meant is the Jews in Rome rejected the Gospel message (AD 61 circa), and because of that, Paul shakes the dust off his feet and concentrates on the Gentiles. Again, now three times I showed you the same thing happened in Acts 13 but to a different audience of Jews in Antioch in Pisidia circa AD 48, thirteen years before Paul arrives in Rome:

Acts 13: NKJV
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
​

Notice the Gentiles get the message of 'everlasting life' along with the Jews in Acts 13 and this is still 13 years before the Acts 28:28 claim.

You're assuming the Kingdom promised to Israel is in Heaven, but you have no proof.

See above, they were promised "everlasting life" in Acts 13:46 but the specific Jews in Antioch of Pisidia rejected it.

The Kingdom is an earthly Kingdom.

Yes, the 1,000 year Reign of Christ (Revelation 20) will be an earthly reign with those coming out of the tribulation alive serving Christ. Then after the 1,000 years comes the Great White Throne (GWT) judgement later in Revelation 20. Then in Revelation 21 we see the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven (v.2) and “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

Not seeing a salient or relevant point here from you. Jesus is present in the millennial Kingdom on earth and again God is present in the New Jerusalem. Our Hope is present at all times with resurrected believers.

It's what was promised to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The King will be on the New Earth, the New Jerusalem, and Heaven.

Yes and in Galatians (written ca. 47 AD) Paul says thus concerning both Jew and Gentile:

Galatians 3: NKJV
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Kingdom that actually is in Heaven is called The Kingdom of His Dear Son.

Show me.

Show me where any descendant of Abraham ever had a promise of anything except the land on Earth or the NJ that is attached to the New Earth.

You mean the promise of everlasting or eternal life? Where do you want to start? I'll start in the OT, then go to the Gospels and then the pre-Acts 28 epistles.

Israelite/Jewish Audience prior to the First Advent of Christ:

Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jewish Audience NT:

Mat 19:29
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jewish and Samaritan audience:

Jhn 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Jhn 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jewish and Gentile audience:

Act 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


Rom 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Gal 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

One of the best proofs that the earthly Kingdom of Heaven or God is Acts 1:6, where the apostles asked, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" Christ didn't rebuke them for asking this. He basically says that they won't know when this will happen. The Apostles knew exactly what they were asking, since they had just received a 40 day Bible study from the Lord concerning the Kingdom.

You mean the very same Apostles who heard throughout all 4 Gospels Jesus preaching life everlasting or eternal life? See above Gospel quotes.

I repeat, Show me in scripture where is says, definitively, so there are no doubts, that anyone in the Bible, except for those Gentiles after Acts in Paul's last 7 books, had a hope of going to Heaven. You've beat around the bush, but you've never come close to showing this. Actually, since you or no one else can do this, this is absolute proof that the church after Acts is different than the church during Acts. When the hope and calling are different, everything is different. Except for we Gentiles in Heaven, ALL the rest of saved mankind, who are all Israelites or Gentiles grafted into Israel or those saved during the White Throne Judgement, will either be on the New Earth or the New Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven and docks on the New Earth.

The disciples/apostles were Jewish right? Didn't Jesus promise to come get them and bring them to His mansions in Heaven?

John 14: NKJV
14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

I don't know where you are getting the distinctions from as you have provided no Scriptural proof texts to support your assertions. It is clear throughout the entire NT that anyone who is in Christ will be with Him whether on earth, New Jerusalem or Heaven.

The Promise is always connected to those in or of Christ regardless of national origin Jew or Gentile.

 

[redleghunter]

Same with the word "gospel", which simply means "good news" or "glad tidings". We can find many different occurences of good news in the Bible and all are gospels. Usually, a gospel is further explained in it's name: The Gospel of the Kingdom; My Gospel (Paul); Gospel of Salvation (Paul).

Ok, I think we are getting somewhere.

Is there more than one Gospel which saves?

Is Paul's Gospel different than what he says IS the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15?

Is the Gospel in 1 Corinthians 15 different than the Gospel preached by Peter in Acts?

Didn't Paul preach the Kingdom after Acts 28:28?

 

[ortho]

Just show me where in Acts the defining passage is where the church started. I asked an Acts 28 adherent the same thing and never received an answer. I do get replies but not answers.

You can't get a one verse reply for the same reason you can't get a one verse reply that will satisfy everybody that Christ is God and the trinity is true. There is no one single verse of the Bible that will do it for everyone especially when they have their mind made up the trinity is false. But here is your answer to study out on your own if you are serious in asking. "Church" according to Paul is talking about the Body of Christ. It is made up of Jews and Gentiles who aren't really counted as either anymore, as both are united as one in Christ. That couldnt happen prior to Jews and Gentiles being saved on the same ground of grace through faith without works of the law. That doesn't happen at least until Paul is saved in Acts 9. That means the church of this dispensation, the body of Christ, couldnt have started until Acts 9 at the earliest.

 

[redleghunter]

You can't get a one verse reply for the same reason you can't get a one verse reply that will satisfy everybody that Christ is God and the trinity is true. There is no one single verse of the Bible that will do it for everyone especially when they have their mind made up the trinity is false. But here is your answer to study out on your own if you are serious in asking. "Church" according to Paul is talking about the Body of Christ. It is made up of Jews and Gentiles who aren't really counted as either anymore, as both are united as one in Christ. That couldnt happen prior to Jews and Gentiles being saved on the same ground of grace through faith without works of the law. That doesn't happen at least until Paul is saved in Acts 9. That means the church of this dispensation, the body of Christ, couldnt have started until Acts 9 at the earliest.

Thanks for the reply.

What precludes the Christian church from beginning in Acts 2 where 3,000 souls put on Christ and were baptized into the New Covenant?

 

[ortho]

Thanks for the reply.

What precludes the Christian church from beginning in Acts 2 where 3,000 souls put on Christ and were baptized into the New Covenant?

Good question, please consider these Bible points.

1 In Acts 2, everything was still according to prophecy just as Peter said it was, and the Kingdom gospel is what had been preached in the four gospels. But the previously hidden secret gospel, Paul's gospel, gospel of the grace of God, was still hid. No one yet knew what God did at the cross for the whole world.

2 Also still hid was even the idea of a Jew/gentile body in Christ where there was no more distinction or favor of Jew over gentile.

3 In early Acts, God's dealings are still to the Jew first. No gentiles get right with God unless they're a proselyte at which point they are no longer considerd a gentile, as has it had been for hundreds of years. No change there.

4 That church was Jews only - no gentiles were approached until Cornelius, and even then Peter had to be ORDERED to go, he still had a problem with going, couldn't really explain why he went and the other disciples had a problem with him because he went.

5 For some time afterward, converts of that church preached to no one but other Jews, Acts 11:19. That makes no sense if there was no distinction between Jews and everybody else, as we later learn from Paul.

6 Well into Acts you had true Messianic Jews still zealous for the Law and they received no rebuke from anyone for it. Try to balance that with Paul teling his reader in Galatians that members of the Body have no need or use for the CURSE of the law. Both can't be true UNLESS it is two different groups.

7 Water baptism goes back to Moses and Israel being God's nation of priests. Gentiles were not baptized unless they converted to Israel, and ceased to be genteils.

8. The new covenant was not intended for ANYONE BUT ISRAEL. That is what it SAYS. It was not made with the body of Christ. The body is under grace through faith, not covenant by works.

Take all that together and if you have an open mind you will start to see that there was a church at Pentecost but that was a purely messianic Jew church, right in line with what had been foretold, who's members did not stop being Jews, and observed the law, and who did not preach to anyone BUT Jews, Acts 11:19. That is not the body of Christ!

The church which Paul called the body of Christ HAD to be a separate organism that had not begun to be formed yet. Too many things about what Paul says the body of Christ is not were still in force in the Kingdom chruch or early Acts.

If you are saved you are part of that church, Paul's church, not the Acts 2 messianic church, and you are better off for it. Thank you for your question.

 

[Danoh]

Good question, please consider these Bible points.

1 In Acts 2, everything was still according to prophecy just as Peter said it was, and the Kingdom gospel is what had been preached in the four gospels. But the previously hidden secret gospel, Paul's gospel, gospel of the grace of God, was still hid. No one yet knew what God did at the cross for the whole world.

2 Also still hid was even the idea of a Jew/gentile body in Christ where there was no more distinction or favor of Jew over gentile.

3 In early Acts, God's dealings are still to the Jew first. No gentiles get right with God unless they're a proselyte at which point they are no longer considerd a gentile, as has it had been for hundreds of years. No change there.

4 That church was Jews only - no gentiles were approached until Cornelius, and even then Peter had to be ORDERED to go, he still had a problem with going, couldn't really explain why he went and the other disciples had a problem with him because he went.

5 For some time afterward, converts of that church preached to no one but other Jews, Acts 11:19. That makes no sense if there was no distinction between Jews and everybody else, as we later learn from Paul.

6 Well into Acts you had true Messianic Jews still zealous for the Law and they received no rebuke from anyone for it. Try to balance that with Paul teling his reader in Galatians that members of the Body have no need or use for the CURSE of the law. Both can't be true UNLESS it is two different groups.

7 Water baptism goes back to Moses and Israel being God's nation of priests. Gentiles were not baptized unless they converted to Israel, and ceased to be genteils.

8. The new covenant was not intended for ANYONE BUT ISRAEL. That is what it SAYS. It was not made with the body of Christ. The body is under grace through faith, not covenant by works.

Take all that together and if you have an open mind you will start to see that there was a church at Pentecost but that was a purely messianic Jew church, right in line with what had been foretold, who's members did not stop being Jews, and observed the law, and who did not preach to anyone BUT Jews, Acts 11:19. That is not the body of Christ!

The church which Paul called the body of Christ HAD to be a separate organism that had not begun to be formed yet. Too many things about what Paul says the body of Christ is not were still in force in the Kingdom chruch or early Acts.

If you are saved you are part of that church, Paul's church, not the Acts 2 messianic church, and you are better off for it. Thank you for your question.

You certainly earned the name "ortho" - your post was spot on.

Things that differ...simply do.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[redleghunter]

If you are saved you are part of that church, Paul's church, not the Acts 2 messianic church, and you are better off for it. Thank you for your questi

Thank you for a well outlined response.

What I see from your post is:

1. Until Paul it was only the Kingdom Gospel preached and souls were entering into a Messianic society until the Gospel of Grace was preached. Then both Jew and Gentile entered into the New Covenant of God's Grace.

2. After the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul and Barnabas to both Jews and Greeks was revealed then they ceased to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and only the Gospel of Grace.

Did I summarize the main points accurately?

God Bless .

 

[Danoh]

Thank you for a well outlined response.

What I see from your post is:

1. Until Paul it was only the Kingdom Gospel preached and souls were entering into a Messianic society until the Gospel of Grace was preached. Then both Jew and Gentile entered into the New Covenant of God's Grace.

2. After the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul and Barnabas to both Jews and Greeks was revealed then they ceased to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and only the Gospel of Grace.

Did I summarize the main points accurately?

God Bless .

My understanding is that there was for a time on this Earth both groups - the Israel of God (Believing Remnant of Israel: James, Peter and John and their converts, Gal. 2:7-9) as one group, and formerly lost Jews and Gentiles saved into the Body of Christ (Paul and his converts, with Paul as the pattern, 1 Tim. 1:16) as another group, AFTER Unbelieving Israel was concluded having continued in the Uncircumcision of their forefathers, or having fallen, at the end of Acts 7 per Christ's warning TO ISRAEL in Matthew 12: 30-32.

Acts 17:11,12

 

[ortho]

Thank you for a well outlined response.

You are welcome, is this really the first time somebody has answerd your questions? I am really not telling you anything you can't read for yourself in your own Bible, it's all right there but I am happy to help you.

1. Until Paul it was only the Kingdom Gospel preached and souls were entering into a Messianic society until the Gospel of Grace was preached.

Yes that point can't be argued by anyone who believes the Bible. Paul said the gospel he preached, his gospel, was revealed directly to him and not known to anybody before him. He had to go tell the circumcision apostles what it was! That means Paul's "new" gospel of grace to ALL can not be the "old" gospel of the Kingdom to Jews FIRST.

Then both Jew and Gentile entered into the New Covenant of God's Grace.

No. I am not angry but I meet so many Christians who have been told they can't be saved without being part of that new covenant but YOUR Bible, read it for yourself, says God meant the new covenant for the house of Israel ONLY. Read Jeremiah for yourself and believe it.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt—a covenant they broke even though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD

That means Jews ONLY. Can't make a NEW covenant with people who didn't have an OLD covenant right? But since God does not see Jew and gentile today (only Lost or Saved, in Christ or not in Christ) that covenant is ON HOLD and NOBODY has it today. Paul says in Rom 9 through 11 that God has set the nation of Israel aside temporarily. No Israel, no covenant. So since me and you are not Israel or Judah, that covenant is not ours to claim and we don't need it. Do you believe that is just my opinion? It isnt, that is what YOUR Bible says. Do you believe your Bible, meaning do you believe what He sais in Jeremiah? If not why not?

If a grace age person, saved or not, claims Israel's new covenant that is THEFT of something God never said we can have, and it means they think God's word is a LIE in Jeremaih. No two ways about that - claim the new covenant, make God a liar. I am not shouting, just frustrated so please excuse me.

Also, a new creation (the body) doesn't need any covenant. Paul says everyone in Christ is COMPLETE in Him. Do you believe that? If you do then you have to believe the new covenant can't do anyhting for believers that being in Christ doesn't already do (besides the fact that it aint yours anyway).

2. After the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul and Barnabas to both Jews and Greeks was revealed then they ceased to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and only the Gospel of Grace.

Who is "they" your asking about there

 

[redleghunter]

You are welcome, is this really the first time somebody has answerd your questions? I am really not telling you anything you can't read for yourself in your own Bible, it's all right there but I am happy to help you.

You are the first person from this point of view to engage me patiently and in a loving manner. I thank you for that.

Yes that point can't be argued by anyone who believes the Bible. Paul said the gospel he preached, his gospel, was revealed directly to him and not known to anybody before him. He had to go tell the circumcision apostles what it was! That means Paul's "new" gospel of grace to ALL can not be the "old" gospel of the Kingdom to Jews FIRST.

I read not only the above but the following paragraphs and think we can boil down the conversation to defining what exactly was the Gospel Paul preached and how it differed from the Gospel preached by Peter, John, Phillip etc. in Acts.

Would you agree the Gospel Paul preached to be found in 1 Corinthians 15?

 

[ortho]

You are the first person from this point of view to engage me patiently and in a loving manner. I thank you for that.

I am very sorry to hear that but you are very welcome. Anything I can do to help I am glad to do.

I read not only the above but the following paragraphs and think we can boil down the conversation to defining what exactly was the Gospel Paul preached and how it differed from the Gospel preached by Peter, John, Phillip etc. in Acts.

Yes, if that's where you want to start that is fine with me. But since you have had contact with people like me before you might just want to focus on whatever it was they did not make clear to your understanding. Maybe i can help with that, and maybe I can't but I don't know what you alreayd know, and don't want to waste your time covering things you already understand.

Would you agree the Gospel Paul preached to be found in 1 Corinthians 15?

I do agree with that. 1 Cor 15:3-4 is Paul's boiled down reminder to the Corinthians of the gospel he received and they believed when they got saved. We can go forward from this common ground if you like. Two more questions,

Would you agree that 1 Cor 15 contains what any lost person must believe today if they want to be saved?

Since you know I am a mid Acts dispensationalist, can I know what you consider yourself? Denomination, church, whatever.

 

[redleghunter]

I do agree with that. 1 Cor 15:3-4 is Paul's boiled down reminder to the Corinthians of the gospel he received and they believed when they got saved. We can go forward from this common ground if you like.

Yes, but later please as it is father's day.

Would you agree that 1 Cor 15 contains what any lost person must believe today if they want to be saved?

Absolutely. For Jew and Gentile alike.