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Mid -Acts Dispensational Doctrine

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by patrick jane, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Danoh

    Danoh Newbie

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    Yo, Ac,

    What's your take on passages like the following, and others like them?

    Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    Romans 14:5 - in memory of Romans 5:6-8 in each...our stead.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
  2. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    When I was A13D, 30 years ago, E.C. Moore, still the best preacher I've ever heard, although I no longer agree with him in dispensational matters (see him on youtube - I prefer his audios over the videos), used to say, when he told you his "opinion" of something, that he was crawling out on a limb, and someone was bound to cut it off. That's where I'm at with the following. For vanity purposes, I would prefer calling it educated guessing, though. As of 10:50 AM, CDT, on 8/5/2018 AD, this is what I believe.

    First off, I believe that when Elijah RE-stores EVERYTHING, (the next event after this present 2000 years Gentile period) in preparation of Israel's earthly Kingdom of Heaven, he will RE-store everything back to the time frame of the 1st Century AD.

    All saved Gentiles, ONLY those which were on their own (not grafted into Israel) since first receiving the Salvation of God (Jesus Christ) in Ac 28:28, will either already be in Heaven (some are the prize winners of Phil. and are resurrected in the out-resurrection, out from among the dead, Phil 3:11) - see various versions (most say "from" the dead; some say out from the dead or out from among the dead), at the "Appearing" of Jesus Christ) or will be still in the grave waiting for their resurrection to the Highest Heaven, after the prize winners get things going.
    2Tim 2:11-12 KJV - About 3/4 of the 60+ E-sword versions I have use "endure", not "suffer", in vs 12.
    11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
    12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

    Israel's Kingdom, which will last somewhere between 16 and 700 years ( my guess is 500-700 years), will be a time of peace and tranquility. All Israel will be under their New Covenant, which involves an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, to put the law in their inward parts so that can keep the law perfectly and love doing it.

    Then, Satan's rebellion will occur and the tribulation will happen. Then the Millennium will occur, ruled by Christ on the throne on earth. He will rule with a rod of iron. Law breakers will be quickly stricken with death and, since it's back to 1st century type times, the Valley of Hinnon, Gehenna, will once again be active, trash will be always burning and the carcasses of those stricken dead (like Ananias, Sapphira and Herod) will be burned, as in Isa 66:24. Also see the Sermon on the Mount, which also covers the Millennium.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  3. patrick jane

    patrick jane MAD Bible Believer Supporter

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    Takin' over my thread Danoh? LOL, thanks for keeping it going.
     
  4. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    Isaiah 66 was fulfilled after the seventy years captivity.
     
  5. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    Books, chapters, and verses, please
     
  6. patrick jane

    patrick jane MAD Bible Believer Supporter

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    How Do I Know I Am Saved?

    http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/how-do-i-know-i-am-saved


    By Justin Johnson

    Let’s be honest. If you do not know that you are saved it is because you are not.

    I am not trying to be cruel or mean, but simply honest. It would be the worst kind of negligence if I encouraged you to believe you were saved if actually you were not.

    Unsaved people roam the earth thinking they are right with God, but are not. This reality may be driving your honest question about how to know if you are saved. This question is the greatest question one could ask, because the answer is understanding the gospel that saves.

    Many people remain unconvinced about their own salvation because of a fear they have left something undone, did not say something right, are not worthy enough, or have not done the right thing to be accepted by God.

    Perhaps this is you! You want to do right, and want to be saved, but do not know for certain how to know. What you need to know is the gospel of Christ.

    Do You Know the Gospel?

    At this point you may object because you claim to already know the gospel. But your question betrays you. The gospel that saves provides the knowledge of salvation. If you do not know you are saved, then you do not know the gospel that saves.

    If you claim to know the gospel and still do not know if you are saved you have been told the wrong gospel. Perhaps you have been told salvation comes by…

    – Believing Jesus is the Son of God.
    – Loving the Lord.
    – Following Jesus.
    – Accepting Jesus.
    – Being born again.
    – Keeping the commandments.
    – Loving your neighbor.
    – Praying the sinner’s prayer.
    – Repentance and confessing your sins.
    – Confessing the Lord with your mouth.
    – Asking Jesus to come into your heart.
    – Making him Lord of your life.
    – Maintaining a personal relationship with Jesus.
    – Naming the name of Christ.
    – Being filled with the Holy Spirit; or feeling his presence?
    If so, you were told wrong. Your doubts testify to the inadequacy of any of these “gospels” to bring the knowledge of salvation. Have you loved the Lord enough? Don’t the devils also believe Jesus is the Son of God (Jam 2:19)? How do you know Jesus accepted your invitation into your heart? Is salvation really by uttering a name?

    Though what you heard may have had an element of Biblical truth in it, you are still left wondering how you know you are saved even after knowing or believing these “gospels”. This is because they do not describe the gospel that saves.

    Proof of Salvation

    The Bible gives proof to every saved person to know they are saved: the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16).

    If we test your proof of salvation against the gospel of Christ, we can know if you are saved or not. (I do not pretend to be the judge of your soul, but using God’s word to evaluate your salvation is prudent.)

    So, what is the proof of your salvation?

    If you say you have none, or that no one can know for certain, then you do not have salvation.

    If you say proof is in the good way you live your life, then you have not heard the truth.

    If you say proof is found in the promises of God to Israel, then you are taking what is not yours. God made promises to the nation of Israel, but there were many people in Israel who died in their sins at God’s hand of judgment and not salvation. How do you know you are part of the promises?

    If you say proof is in what you have done or not done, said or not said, then you are not saved.

    Without proof on what basis can you know that you are saved? There is none! Do you see now that you are not saved at all, and rather than needing to be convinced by Scripture that you are, you need to have the power of God unto salvation open your eyes to the truth of the gospel?

    What is the Gospel that Saves

    Now the question is seen in a new light. It is no longer the question of a saved person lacking confidence. It is the cry of an unsaved person lacking proof of salvation.

    Sinners cannot save themselves or make themselves worthy enough for God to save them. Salvation is not for the righteous or the good, but for the unrighteous and the ungodly. The truth is that there is none righteous, and all have fallen short of God’s glorious standard.

    Salvation of sinners is accomplished through the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ. God manifest in the flesh died innocently in the place of sinners shedding his blood as a sacrifice for sins. He rose from the dead three days later defeating the power of death and offering his finished work as the means of salvation to all men.

    Salvation is not proven by our own efforts, but in the righteousness of God in Christ when he died for our sins, rose from the dead, and offers salvation freely to sinners who need it. Proof of salvation is found in the gospel of Christ. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself by the cross.

    “To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” – Romans 3:25

    We will be saved “if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.” – Romans 4:24-25

    This is the gospel of Christ; it is the preaching of the cross. Christ is God, and he did everything necessary to save men through his death and resurrection. His work is the proof of salvation.

    If his work is the proof of your salvation, then you have peace with God and eternal life. You are no longer trying to provide proof. God has provided it by his grace in Christ.

    “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” – Romans 5:1

    “…the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” – Romans 6:23

    How Do I Know?

    I know that I am saved because Christ died for my sins, rose from the dead, and offers salvation freely to all who believe in him. I’ve seen him save other people who believe the gospel of Christ. He will save you, when you believe it (Eph 1:13; Rom 3:22).

    Stop trusting your life, your prayers, your works, your good deeds, your feelings, trust the finished work of Christ and know that you are saved.
     
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  7. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    Definition of "The Gospel (Good News) of the Grace of God" Ac 20:24

    That the Gentiles could partake of Israel's spiritual things (Rom 15:27), by faith, without having to keep the Law.

    And so they did, until Israel and everything associated with Israel was set aside in Ac 28:25-27.

    BTW, how do you reconcile Rom15:26-27, written about Ac 20, if the Gentile Church started in Ac 9?
    Rom15:26-27
    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their (Israel's) spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
  8. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    All of Jeremiah 29 especially verse 10-14.

    Verse 10: For thus saith the Lord, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
     
  9. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    I see little or no correspondence between Jer 29 and Isa 66.

    Isa 66:24 is obviously a scene during the millennium at the visible trash pit on the surface of the earth in the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, near Jerusalem.
     
  10. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    I assumed that all knew that the prophets were addressing the the exiles. They all are about the same time.

    In Is. 66:18 God says that he is "about to come and gather the people." In Jer. 29:10-14 God says that he was going to gather the people "after the seventy years are accomplished."

    The prophets knew nothing about your supposed millennium.
     
  11. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a millennium. I do disagree about the millennium not being in prophecy, but it's not terribly important, in that nothing in OT prophecy applies directly TO or ABOUT anyone living in the last 1900+ years. The only thing I know of that isn't in prophecy is the mystery that makes up all of Paul's 7 post-Acts books, which was totally hid in God since the world began (Eph 3:9). I know that everything contained in Paul's 7 Acts books were in Moses and the prophets, because Paul said so in Ac 26:22.

    Admittedly, I spend little time in the OT, because I know that nothing in there is TO me or ABOUT me or anyone else living today. Also, the OT is not about the Jews today, because there is no Israel today and all the Jews are treated as Gentiles, in God's eyes.

    I spend most of my time only on the things that will directly affect myself and everyone else living in this present parenthetical 2000 year all-Gentile period that started in about 63AD (Ac 28:25-28), when Israel, as a nation, and everything associated with Israel, was set aside.

    Israel had it's 2000 years (Gen 12 through the end of Acts) as God's chosen people, in order for them to ultimately be the primary occupants of the created New Earth and the sole occupants (along with those few Gentiles in Acts that were grafted into Israel) of the created New Heavens (includes the New Jerusalem). The only Gentiles, during that 2000 years, that were also chosen, were those who went through Israel and became Jews (proselytes).

    The present 2000 years, starting in about 63AD and maybe ending in 2063, is just the opposite. The Gentiles today are the chosen people (eph 1:4) who were chosen before the world began, to occupy the uncreated Highest Heaven, where Christ sits at the right hand of God (Eph 1:20, 2:6). The only Jews in this group are those who essentially become Gentiles, in that they must also believe that Christ died for their sins, and then was buried and resurrected after 3 days.

    The first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

    Excluding Deity and our salvation, the only part of the Bible that is written directly TO us or ABOUT us Gentiles, today, are Paul's 7 books written after Acts. The other 59 books are all-Israel and are valuable FOR our learning, but as far as telling us specifically what our future holds, nothing can be found in them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  12. patrick jane

    patrick jane MAD Bible Believer Supporter

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    I plan to look into the Acts 28 view more. I know a very nice lady who follows my salvation & doctrine threads on other forums and she is very good at explaining her Acts 28 views.
     
  13. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    Duplicate
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
  14. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    That's quite exciting, Patrick. I certainly don't hear that often.

    Is the lady from Wales? Is her forum name Charity or Complete? If so, she is very knowledgeable and a very sweet lady. She's on a couple of forums I post on. I wish I had her nice easygoing demeanor.

    Probably 95-98% of all Ac 28 books can be downloaded free. Here's a few of, maybe, 25 Ac 28 websites

    Welcome - BibleUnderstanding Ministry - most of the free books and some of the audios are here - Welch is the main guy, basically the founder, in about 1907, in London. The first to really see the dispensational break in Ac 28:25-28., and massively expand on it. Wrote many books. Very meticulous and thorough. Lots of word studies. He proves everything he says. He's not easy to read, but, to get the detailed, unvarnished truth, you almost have to read him. His audios are lighter and not as dry, since he does have a fairly good sense of humor. - Only Bullinger's last book, "Foundations of Dispensational Truth", written near the end of his life, is Ac 28. Before that, he was sort of mid-Acts, in that he ran all of Paul's epistles together and failed to see the dispensational break in Acts 28:25-28. When he finally saw the truth, he said, "I guess that scraps half the books I've written" - Allen was Welch's successor.

    More on E.W. Bullinger. In the late 1800s, early 1900s, he was universally considered one of the world's top theologians, along with his close friend, Sir Robert Anderson. Ignorant people today use the term, "Bullingerism" to stamp his form of dispensationalism, when the term was actually coined for his (totally scriptural) views on the second coming. In the mid-to-late 1800's, belief in the 2nd Coming was considered heresy (promoted by you-know-who, of course). Bullinger was one of the first to rediscover the 2nd Coming in scripture. As a result, he gave a famous series of 10 lectures at Oxford on the 2nd Coming and what he taught there was derogatorily called, "Bullingerism". In many articles and books, it is said by the unknowledgeable that he was the founder of Ac 28. Not so. As an adjunct, it is also said that Bullinger wrote the music of "Amazing Grace".

    http://http://plainerwords.com/ - about 200 short, concise articles by Tom Ballinger. - I've been reading him for 30 years - He has some novel ideas

    Current Issue - TFT means Truth For Today - centered around Oscar Baker's works, who died in 1984, I think - He was, and still is, in my opinion, the main Ac 28 guy in the US. - Most of Oscar's 500+ Bible audios are free here. - TFT sells Oscar's 4 volumes of 36 years of his monthly 4 page magazine of articles. Cheap and well worth it - Sells most all of the Ac 28 books by all the authors, if you want a hard copy (I do). Some of the hardbound ones are not of the best quality, but they're cheap - I have most of them. - Oscar was always my main mentor. Welch is a very close 2nd.

    Formerly Mid Acts - NOW ACTS 28 Interesting site by a lady I've been on a lot of forums with, in the past 20 years - she switched from Ac 9 to Ac 28

    HD Home Page - my son's old Ac 28 site, from about 2000. Lots of good stuff, if you dig for it. Zoom the site to about 130%, for best results.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  15. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    Well, you have laid out a whole lot of stuff and I have no intentions of addressing your many theories. Getting back to my original point about chapter 66 having its fulfillment after the seventy years captivity. Please note verses 20,21,

    20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the temple of the Lord.

    21 And I will appoint them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

    It says that after God brings the exiles back from all nations there will be a temple and God will appoint Levites as priests. This is exactly what happened. After they returned to the land the temple was rebuilt and Levites were appointed as priests.

    The descendants of the captivity begun the construction of the temple.

    Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin learned that the descendants of the captivity were building the temple.... Ezra 4:1

    The construction of the temple was delayed but finally finished,

    Now the temple was finished on the third day of the month of Adar which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius.... Ezra 6:15

    Then Levites were appointed as priests,

    And they appointed the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God....

    Therefore, chapter 66 was fulfilled after the seventy years captivity.
     
  16. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    No offense, but I see no reason to continue this conversation. At this time, the subject bores me and wastes my time. I KNOW that nothing in the OT is TO me or ABOUT me, or TO and ABOUT anyone living in the past 1900+ years, including yourself. We Gentiles in this parenthetical 2000 year all-Gentile period of Pure Grace we live in, are not covered by any OT prophecy, whatsoever - NONE.

    Also, ALL OT prophecy involves Israel (12 tribes of). Since Israel does not exist today, it is impossible that any OT prophecy has been fulfilled since about 63AD. The destruction of the temple, that occurred in 69-70 AD, was prophesied in the NT by Christ in Mt 24, but I don't think that was also in the OT.

    For pleasure, I do spend time in the OT, but I pick my topics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  17. patrick jane

    patrick jane MAD Bible Believer Supporter

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    Mid-Acts Dispensational Right Division is a Gospel Issue


    http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/mid-acts-dispensational-right-division-is-a-gospel-issue


    By Justin Johnson

    There is no more important issue for humanity than the gospel of our salvation. Yet, when you ask a handful of Christians to explain the gospel rarely do you get a consistent or clear answer.

    Common ideas about salvation are experiential and based on performance. These beliefs are not much different than other religions. They sound like this:


    • – Doing the best I can
      – Going to church
      – Being good
      – Believing in God
      – Raised in a Christian home
      – Experienced God’s love
    More spiritually minded people will recognize that the gospel has something to do with Jesus. We hear the salvation gospel described as “believing in Jesus”, “following Jesus”, “making Jesus Lord of your life”, “accepting Jesus”, “receiving Jesus”, or “loving Jesus”. Pretty much, anything that has to do with Jesus is a legitimate explanation of the gospel for these folks.

    Even certified theologians differ about the gospel. Some think God chooses who will be saved. Others think God grants salvation in response to our behavior. Catholics believe it is a sin to presume that you are eternally saved. Now, that is confusion!

    The only thing clear about the gospel in Christianity is that few people can articulate it clearly.

    The Gospel of Our Salvation

    It is not the gospel of salvation merely to believe in Jesus; the devils do that (Mark 1:24, James 2:19).
    It is not the gospel to love Jesus with all our heart; the Muslims dothat as well.

    “Making Jesus Lord” is something the Mormons include in their theology, and every good Hindu “accepts” Jesus (they accept thousands of gods).

    None of the beliefs above can save you from God’s rightful judgment against our sins. Paul clearly states the gospel of our salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.

    “… Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: …” – 1 Corinthians 15:3-4

    It was through Christ’s death that our sin is removed and we are justified.

    “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” – 2 Corinthians 5:21

    We receive righteous standing with God by faith.

    “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” – Romans 5:1

    Belief in this gospel alone will save you and give you the grace of eternal life (Rom 6:23). First, we hear this gospel of grace. Second, we trust it, then we are saved: no more, no less.

    “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise…” – Ephesians 1:13

    The Mystery of the Gospel

    What does this have to do with the mystery of Christ and mid-Acts dispensational right division? Everything.

    You can find gospel messages in the Bible before the gospel of grace surrounding the covenants, Israel, the Commandments, baptism, the Messiah, and the kingdom. Christians cause confusion when they fail to distinguish between the gospel of the kingdom and the mystery gospel of the grace of God.

    No one before the revelation of the mystery of Christ understood the significant meaning of the death of Jesus to all men (Luke 18:34).

    The mystery of Christ is the gospel of the grace of God. It is the preaching of the cross for salvation. No one before the revelation of the mystery understood how faith alone could justify sinners (James 2:24). The gospel of grace was kept secret from humanity (1 Cor 2:7-8).

    Mid-Acts right division recognizes the difference between God’s progressive instructions in the Bible, and clarifies our understanding of the gospel for today. By separating the gospel of grace from the message of the law, covenants, kingdoms, and baptism the glorious gospel of Christ stands alone.

    Resolving the confusions over tithing, tongues, and water baptism are only consequences and not the main benefit of mid-acts dispensational right division. The biggest benefit to the church of learning the mystery of Christ is clarifying the gospel of our salvation.
     
  18. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    No offense, but you are misguided sir. We are not in a so called "all gentile period." Peter speaking to the men of Israel about the promise of the Holy Spirit said,

    “For the promise is for you and for your children, even for those for a great while to come, for those whom the Lord our God may call.” Acts 2:39; Isaiah 59:21

    Your claim that all old testament prophecy was about Israel only is totally false. Isaiah prophesied that the Assyrians and the Egyptians would become God's people with Israel.

    Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance. Isaiah 19:19-25

    Ezekiel prophesied that Gentiles would be alotted an inheritance with Israelites.

    You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. Ezekiel 47:22
     
  19. ac28

    ac28 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing you said has any effect on any Truth for anyone living today. Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Acts are very exciting books, but none of them have anything to do with us heaven dwellers today

    Nothing in the OT is TO me (or, you) or ABOUT me (or, you). It wasn't about us then, so why is it about us now? The same with Acts. The only Gentiles in Acts, being grafted into Israel, were part of Israel. Israel hasn't existed as a nation, in God's eyes, for 1955 years. With no temple, they can't keep the Law. To be God's people, they must keep the Law.

    The only books of the Bible that are written TO and ABOUT us, today, are Paul's 7 post-Acts books. Everything in those books are part of a mystery, a secret that was hid from every age and generation, Eph 3:9, Col 1:26. Nothing in them was ever known by any human, until Paul revealed it in his post-Acts epistles. They were written before the OT, the Gospels, or the Acts started and not revealed until the Acts period ended. Therefore, it is not possible that anything in those 7 books have anything in them that is in those other 59 books. The only exception is Christ. He is the only thing ever given to Israel that is given to us. Those 7 post-Acts books are complete within themselves. Nothing from outside them is TO us or ABOUT us, but everything within them is TO us and ABOUT us.

    When you quote scripture, please do it out of OUR books, Paul's 7 post-Acts books. Not THEIR books, the other 59.. Except for Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, nothing you could possibly quote from those other 59 books is TO or ABOUT anyone living today. Everything in them is vital, for our learning and wisdom, but nothing in them will tell us anything specifically about us or our future. Quoting from those 59, 100%, all-Israel books is a total waste of time.

    We're not Israel
    We are 100% Gentiles (non-Israelites)

    Abraham is not our father
    God is our only Father

    The rapture is not our resurrection Hope
    Our Resurrection Hope is the Appearing

    The New Jerusalem is not our Calling or the mother of us all.
    Our only calling is Above the Heavens where Christ sits at the right hand of God.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  20. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    You made no attempt to disprove anything I said. You only restated your THEORIES and expect them to be accepted as fact because you say so. You are even telling me which scriptures I may use and may not use. Who do you think you are dude? I guess we're done.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
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