Microchip contradiction?

[bbbbbbb]

I think the crucifix is a significantly recognized sign and a very loud non verbal evangelization tool that has assisted to prompt many conversions.

It’s also clearly unliked (stumbling block) to many with governments in some instances removing them / organizations frowning on their display etc..

But I do understand that most Protestants are not comfortable with it and even see it as an a break of commandments

My issue is not so much with the crucifix per se, but the culture of quietism as being evangelism. Many, if not most, Christians across the entire spectrum, are very uncomfortable (if not downright opposed) with verbally sharing the gospel in any setting. To assuage their guilty consciences they resort to other, silent, methods. For example, people in my own church are taught that by living a really nice, sweet life, other people will see the difference and beg them to become Christians. However, eighty years of experience (at least) has proven this to be false as not a single person has been converted by that method. That is not to say that other Christians have not joined us (which, unfortunately, tend to viewed as conversions).

As for the crucifix, it is meaningful only in a Western cultural context. The vast majority of the 1.4 billion Chinese people and the 1.2 billion Indian people don't associate it with Christianity even as we do not associate the ornament I used in my previous with another major world religion.

The use of religious ornaments is, at its best, as a personal morale boost for the wearer.

 

[Major1]

"Right hand" refers to the "hand" in Exodus 13:9, Deuteronomy 6:8, and Deuteronomy 11:18.

"Forehead" (μέτωπον, literally "between the eyes") refers to the "between the eyes" in Exodus 13:9, Deuteronomy 6:8, and Deuteronomy 11:18.

That double reference makes it certain that Exodus 13:9, Deuteronomy 6:8, and Deuteronomy 11:18 are being referred to.

That is, those words in Revelation are about worshipping the Beast instead of God.

It is correct that the False Prophet will direct worship toward the beast. It is also the False Prophet who causes men to take the mark.

I personally do not think that your references in Ex. and Deut. has anything to do with the Right Hand and forehead of men during the Tribulation period.

In all my years of study on this subject, I have never encountered such a theology.

However, if that is what you think then wonderful.

 

[Major1]

I guess that’s beside the point, I’m not a preterist (though do see that event as fulfilling Jesus prophecy of the destruction of the temple)
The point was more to answer your query about how worship of beast could be used to prevent buy/sell

Good point. The "worship" of the Beast will not cause anyone to not be able to buy and sell.

It is the ABSENSE of the Mark on the body which identifies people as being aligned with the A/C and therefore they can buy and sell food and survive.

The believers of that day will not have that physical mark on thier bodied so they will be easily hunted and killed just as were the Jews in Germany in WW2 who had the star of David.

 

[Major1]

If the return happened already. Explain the two witnesses in Jerusalem.

Good question.

 

[Major1]

ok if you then don’t consider the exo13:1-10 as a factor that may make hand / forehead symbols for worship / acts of will, then what do you consider to be Gods mark on the forehead in Rev?
Is it visible with faith or simply faith alone without visible mark?
the Exo13:1-10 verse describes the hand/forehead with the sacrifice / worship of Passover.

However the CONTEXT of the Rev. does not fit well at all with your thinking that the Mark is worship of the A/C.

Ex 13:6 clearly says that the CONTEXT is about the people entering Canaan land.

Ex" 13>5..../
"When the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites and Jebusites-the land he swore to your ancestors to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey-you are to observe this ceremony in this month"

To make that be something to do with worship of the A/C iin the Rev. is to read into the Scriptures something that simply is not there.

I realize that this is something you have put a lot of time into, but honestly, I do not think it is what you are trying to make it.

But........you do whatever makes you happy.

 

[Panevino]

However the CONTEXT of the Rev. does not fit well at all with your thinking that the Mark is worship of the A/C.

Ex 13:6 clearly says that the CONTEXT is about the people entering Canaan land.

Ex" 13>5..../
"When the LORD brings you into the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites and Jebusites-the land he swore to your ancestors to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey-you are to observe this ceremony in this month"

the context is Passover ceremony, blood on doorposts/lintel and sacrifice/eating of lamb and lives saved leading to departure from slavery to the promised land of milk and honey...
A worship of god that is remembered/ memorial for future generations “what you did for me”

To make that be something to do with worship of the A/C iin the Rev. is to read into the Scriptures something that simply is not there.

as you know I disagree
Worship of a/c would be a counter to above / rejection of god (anti)

I realize that this is something you have put a lot of time into, but honestly, I do not think it is what you are trying to make it.

But........you do whatever makes you happy.

It’s catholic thought on the topic not my hard work /theory

 

[Panevino]

Good point. The "worship" of the Beast will not cause anyone to not be able to buy and sell.

As previously mentioned in Josephus or Pliny (can’t recall) during the destruction of the temple (~70ad) people could not buy/sell /function without demonstrating worship of the pagan God emperor

It is the ABSENSE of the Mark on the body which identifies people as being aligned with the A/C and therefore they can buy and sell food and survive.

The believers of that day will not have that physical mark on thier bodied so they will be easily hunted and killed just as were the Jews in Germany in WW2 who had the star of David.

I don’t necessarily disagree that there may be a visible mark (blood on doorposts at Passover comes to mind) but that a mark alone without a rejection of God / worship of a/c seems a superstitious view for how God would view /judge that person

 

[Radagast]

In all my years of study on this subject, I have never encountered such a theology.

It's one of the clearest OT references in the NT.

I must say, I wonder what kind of "study" on the subject you did.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I will introduce another interesting thought here. As most of us know, our cell phones as well as other high-tech objects such as our automobiles are very easily tracked. There is not the slightest doubt that, should a government such as China, want to monitor what its population is doing and where they are, the technology is there without all the fuss and bother of implanting microchips.

In China today everyone has an identity card which they must keep on their persons at all times. Their identity card limits them to living in their village or city such that it is illegal for most people to relocate without government approval or to even take a trip. If one purchases a train ticket the identification card is required to purchase it. The same with airline tickets. The identity card is like the American Social Security card, which is now being replaced with an American identity card. This new card will function precisely in the same manner as the Chinese identity card, allowing a faceless bureaucracy to monitor and limit our lives to serve its own purposes.

The "mark of the Beast" is already here and it is not going to go away on its own.

 

[Panevino]

My issue is not so much with the crucifix per se, but the culture of quietism as being evangelism. Many, if not most, Christians across the entire spectrum, are very uncomfortable (if not downright opposed) with verbally sharing the gospel in any setting. To assuage their guilty consciences they resort to other, silent, methods. For example, people in my own church are taught that by living a really nice, sweet life, other people will see the difference and beg them to become Christians. However, eighty years of experience (at least) has proven this to be false as not a single person has been converted by that method. That is not to say that other Christians have not joined us (which, unfortunately, tend to viewed as conversions).

I know what you mean however it helped me significantly with my reigniting (not that I left) when recalling as a kid/teenager seeing an old couple walk past our kitchen window every Sunday morning going to mass arm in arm while my parents struggled with various things

As for the crucifix, it is meaningful only in a Western cultural context. The vast majority of the 1.4 billion Chinese people and the 1.2 billion Indian people don't associate it with Christianity even as we do not associate the ornament I used in my previous with another major world religion.

The use of religious ornaments is, at its best, as a personal morale boost for the wearer.

I know what you mean, but don’t agree totally, we have had a recent influx of Lebanese Catholics in my city and their clear expression of the faith is amazing (crucifixes, statues, icons on work desks and shops etc..) is great for our city
Making lots of Disengaged Catholics remember what they are part of

 

[Bob Crowley]

....

I've got a booklet at home put out by the "Commission for the Future" which was set up by the Hawke Goverment in Australia way back in the 1980's. This booklet was the result of one committee discussing the topic "Towards a Cashless Society". The chairman of the particular committee was one Philip Adams, who is an atheist, so it hardly had a religious bent.

In the report there was a remark that way back in the 1970's a think tank of American lawyers figured out that the easiest way for a government to keep tabs on its citizens would be the compulsory adaptation of electronic finance ie. a cashless society.
.....

I think it's on its way.

I lifted the above quote from my own post #17 above.

In the booklet the authors put in an example of the sort of scrutiny we might expect in a cashless society. It was actually based on a scenario prepared by the same bunch of American consultants who were asked in 1975 to "provide a way in which citizens' behaviour could be monitored without their knowledge. The firm came up with the idea of compulsory electronic payments."

Bear in mind the example was modified for an Australian background, and the prices are ridiculously cheap since they are 1987 Australian figures, when the booklet was printed.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

DAILY SURVEILLANCE SHEET

Confidential
April 22 1988
SUBJECT: Robert E. Squire, 13 Scilly Street, Springtown, NSW. Male, aged 40. Married. Electrical Engineer.

PURCHASES: Australian Financial Review, $.070; Breakfast $5.25, Petrol $15.00, Phone (06 634 7968) $1.44, Lunch $8.40, Cocktails $10.00; ATM withdrawal $100.00; Phone (02 824 7565) $0.20; Case whisky $270.00; Sydney Morning Herald $0.90.

COMPUTER ANALYSIS
Owns shares (90% probablility)

Heavy starch breakfast, probably overweight.

Bought $15.00 worth of petrol. Owns Volvo. So far this week subject has bought $50.00 worth of petrol. Extensive driving beside 15 km to work indicated. Purchased petrol at 7.57 am at service station 10 km from work. Subject probably later than usual for work. Third such occurrence this week.

Phone number (06 634 7565) belongs to J. McKenzie. McKenzie arrested illegal bookmaking in 1979, 1978 and 1982. No convictions.

Drinks during luch.

Cash withdrawal unusual. Cash now used mainly for illegal purchase or those not wished to be recorded on monthly bank statements.

Whiskey purchased third case in six months. Drinking more heavily or increased entertaining.

Subject left work at approximately 4.00 pm as whiskey purchased 2 km from job at 4.10 pm. Subject bought newspaper at 6.30 pm near his house. No purchases in interim. Unaccounted 2 hours 20 minutes.

(END OF TRANSCRIPT)

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Bear in mind the American consultants dreamed up this scenario way back in 1975 which was then modified over a decade later by the Australian "Committee for the Future - Issues For a Cashless Society".

The consultants were apparently asked to work out the best way for a government to keep track on citizens without their knowledge. I wonder who asked them to come up with the idea?

The cashless society has moved a long way since then and so has computing power, as we all know. I wasn't aware of the internet in 1975 and the cashless society wasn't even a blip on the radar in Australia in those days as far as the general public was concerned.

I'll bet my electronic money on a silicon chip implanted in forehead or wrist as the mark of the beast, possibly coupled with some sort of lethal component which can be activated if "they" think you're a threat.

 

[Panevino]

I lifted the above quote from my own post #17 above.

In the booklet the authors put in an example of the sort of scrutiny we might expect in a cashless society. It was actually based on a scenario prepared by the same bunch of American consultants who were asked in 1975 to "provide a way in which citizens' behaviour could be monitored without their knowledge. The firm came up with the idea of compulsory electronic payments."

Bear in mind the example was modified for an Australian background, and the prices are ridiculously cheap since they are 1987 Australian figures, when the booklet was printed.



Bear in mind the American consultants dreamed up this scenario way back in 1975 which was then modified over a decade later by the Australian "Committee for the Future - Issues For a Cashless Society".

The consultants were apparently asked to work out the best way for a government to keep track on citizens without their knowledge. I wonder who asked them to come up with the idea?

The cashless society has moved a long way since then and so has computing power, as we all know. I wasn't aware of the internet in 1975 and the cashless society wasn't even a blip on the radar in Australia in those days as far as the general public was concerned.

I'll bet my electronic money on a silicon chip implanted in forehead or wrist as the mark of the beast, possibly coupled with some sort of lethal component which can be activated if "they" think you're a threat.

Not trying to deflate your point, but I just don’t see how having a chip that allows you to be traceable etc would “by itself “ be a turning from God / acceptance of A/c.

Unless it’s a form of our idolatry of money / progress / technology / government, that we place before God (this type of idolatry of faith in mans progress / and “the state” as effectively our Father who can solve all issues, is discussed in various papal encyclicals with warnings that society is heading in that direction)

 

[Major1]

It's one of the clearest OT references in the NT.

I must say, I wonder what kind of "study" on the subject you did.

I think that it is something YOU want to be there. Again, I just do not see it.

Then Of course I wonder why you feel the need to make such a personal comment on what I studied. It seems that always happens on "Christian" forums when someone does not agree with someone else.

I could be personal and say the very same thing about your study couldn't I??

But I will not do that.

Be safe my friend.

 

[Major1]

As previously mentioned in Josephus or Pliny (can’t recall) during the destruction of the temple (~70ad) people could not buy/sell /function without demonstrating worship of the pagan God emperor


I don’t necessarily disagree that there may be a visible mark (blood on doorposts at Passover comes to mind) but that a mark alone without a rejection of God / worship of a/c seems a superstitious view for how God would view /judge that person

IMHO.....I do not believe that anything that took place in 70 AD has any bearing on what will take place in the Tribulation. I am not saying that it did not take place.....only that what was done then has no bearing and what will be done in the Trib.

I agree. Now IMO and I believe Scripture supports this......The taking of the Mark of the Beast IS IN FACT REJECTION OF THE WORSHIP OF GOD OF CREATION!

Rev. 13:15-16.....
“He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

 

[bbbbbbb]

I know what you mean however it helped me significantly with my reigniting (not that I left) when recalling as a kid/teenager seeing an old couple walk past our kitchen window every Sunday morning going to mass arm in arm while my parents struggled with various things

I know what you mean, but don’t agree totally, we have had a recent influx of Lebanese Catholics in my city and their clear expression of the faith is amazing (crucifixes, statues, icons on work desks and shops etc..) is great for our city
Making lots of Disengaged Catholics remember what they are part of

I agree that such people and activities can, and do, spur other Christians to more faithfulness, but in an increasingly secular society these fall far short of articulating the gospel to a host of people who do not associate such things with Christianity.

 

[JohnDB]

Implanted microchips or RFID chips, where a popular notion, are absolutely the worst idea possible.

They will be problematic at best. Identity theft would become an impossible crisis...if you could actually get the chips to work.

Look at the cars on your hands now...
We beat the stew out of them... anybody's head completely car free? What makes people think that they wouldn't destroy a chip implanted inside of a hand or forehead (hat bands won't help but actually speed up the degradation) is beyond me.

Then people would develop physical issues from having a foreign body inserted into themselves. (Think piercings gone wrong but worse) the cysts would be horrendous.

There's no way anyone who actually is in either the medical side or the tech side who would recommend such a thing. Chips are fragile. So are RFID cards.

 

[Major1]

Not trying to deflate your point, but I just don’t see how having a chip that allows you to be traceable etc would “by itself “ be a turning from God / acceptance of A/c.

Unless it’s a form of our idolatry of money / progress / technology / government, that we place before God (this type of idolatry of faith in mans progress / and “the state” as effectively our Father who can solve all issues, is discussed in various papal encyclicals with warnings that society is heading in that direction)

Allow me to give all of you an example. IT IS NOT BIBLICAL AND I AM MAKEING THIS UP-

There comes a day when millions upon millions of people are found to be missiong.
NO ONE can explain what happened or where they went.

Then on the 6:00 o'clock news, the President of the UN has a news conference and he says to the world........

"The world is under attack from forces we can not identify. The worlds economy is at stake which is our very survival as human beings. As of tomarrow, everyone WILL report to your local Post Office where a MARK will be placed on your HAND. By this action, NO ONE CAN STEAL YOUR MONEY UNLESS THEY HAVE YOUR HAND WHICH THEY WILL HAVE TO CUT OFF TO STEAL YOUR MONEY. This will protect YOUR money as well as the worlds economy which will keep humanity in tact during this critical and dangerous days.

When they try to scan your cut off hand to buy food, they will be arrested and Executed on the spot.

Now the real question......
"How many people will show up at the Post Office the next day"?????

IMO............Everyone alive will show up because the REAL BELIEVERS will have been Raptured leaving only the Christ rejecters and "make believers".

THAT is why there must be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[Major1]

Implanted microchips or RFID chips, where a popular notion, are absolutely the worst idea possible.

They will be problematic at best. Identity theft would become an impossible crisis...if you could actually get the chips to work.

Look at the cars on your hands now...
We beat the stew out of them... anybody's head completely car free? What makes people think that they wouldn't destroy a chip implanted inside of a hand or forehead (hat bands won't help but actually speed up the degradation) is beyond me.

Then people would develop physical issues from having a foreign body inserted into themselves. (Think piercings gone wrong but worse) the cysts would be horrendous.

There's no way anyone who actually is in either the medical side or the tech side who would recommend such a thing. Chips are fragile. So are RFID cards.

I actually agree with you. That is why I am a proponent of the UPC Bar Code OR something like it which is actually in place right now all over the world. The UPC Bar Code has completly replaced the practice of placeing a sales ticket on items for sale.

Not only does it allow for a price to be rung on the cash register, it also tracks the sale, the person buying an item and can reorder a replacement.

The UPC Bar Code when placed on the SKIN as a tattoo could then be scanned with ease by anyone with a scanner.

Then also, this is something to think about........

Rev. 16: 2 says of the Mark placed on the skin.....
'The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image."

This tells us that those who take the MARK will develop a very bad, severe sore on the skin. I would say that can come from either a CHIP but I would lean more to a TATTOO!

 

[Major1]

I will introduce another interesting thought here. As most of us know, our cell phones as well as other high-tech objects such as our automobiles are very easily tracked. There is not the slightest doubt that, should a government such as China, want to monitor what its population is doing and where they are, the technology is there without all the fuss and bother of implanting microchips.

In China today everyone has an identity card which they must keep on their persons at all times. Their identity card limits them to living in their village or city such that it is illegal for most people to relocate without government approval or to even take a trip. If one purchases a train ticket the identification card is required to purchase it. The same with airline tickets. The identity card is like the American Social Security card, which is now being replaced with an American identity card. This new card will function precisely in the same manner as the Chinese identity card, allowing a faceless bureaucracy to monitor and limit our lives to serve its own purposes.

The "mark of the Beast" is already here and it is not going to go away on its own.

AGREED!

Consider for just a moment. Lets say, 25 years ago, who thought that writing a check from your own bank account would be obsolete?????

But what has the DEBIT card done.......Exactly that!!!

How hard then will it be to place a "MARK of the skin which will include your Health information, Insurance Info and your Banking info.

As you just said......it is ALREADY here but just not on the Skin as of yet but IMO it is just around the corner.

Once the Rapture removes the believers, the Restrainer will be gone and the A/C can and will be able to do these things overnight.

I am not going to be surprised that one day we hear on the news that the government is going to issue everyone a new "HEALTH CARE CARD" under the heading of.........
"Free Universal Healthcare".

 

[JohnDB]

I actually agree with you. That is why I am a proponent of the UPC Bar Code OR something like it which is actually in place right now all over the world. The UPC Bar Code has completly replaced the practice of placeing a sales ticket on items for sale.

Not only does it allow for a price to be rung on the cash register, it also tracks the sale, the person buying an item and can reorder a replacement.

The UPC Bar Code when placed on the SKIN as a tattoo could then be scanned with ease by anyone with a scanner.

Then also, this is something to think about........

Rev. 16: 2 says of the Mark placed on the skin.....
'The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image."

This tells us that those who take the MARK will develop a very bad, severe sore on the skin. I would say that can come from either a CHIP but I would lean more to a TATTOO!

You still would have issues with number/identity theft, Scars and stains. Blueberry juice and henna tattoos. You couldn't just get a new number linked to your bank account.

Then, on top of all this...
The world has too many Christians to go along with such a notion of chips or tattoos. And then the others who have learned about such things.