Microchip contradiction?

[Panevino]

Background: I’m Catholic and don’t believe that a microchip is the mark of the beast, but understand it is the very prevalent and entrenched understanding among pentecostal Christians.

I have a couple questions about it for those that believe it (these are not loaded questions and I’m not here to convince others of my view but am interested in others understanding)

1. Does the mere acceptance of the chip damn you or does it require a coincident form of worship of sorts

2. Why or do? Pentecostals reject a Christian mark of the sign of the cross on forehead (ie example as done in Catholic church on Ash Wednesday or sign made with/without oil at Baptism, other blessings, during mass at announcement of the Gospels and also at anointing of the sick)

2(a) if Pentecostals do reject this Christian sign on forehead what do they consider the mark/sign in Rev9:4, 14:1..Of course Pentecostals would not accept that the sign of cross could be a mere mechanical process of it being there alone but it would have to be seen on someone who is “born again” repentant / in state of grace etc...

3 I’m wondering if there is a disconnect /inconsistency (in Pentecostal thought( between the acceptability / validity of the Christian mark and the mark Of the beast ie mechanism of its effect (ie with/without worship)

 

[SPF]

Good questions that I would like to hear the answers on as well. Though I don't think those beliefs are confined to only Pentecostals, I think they're actually held by the majority of pre-trib rapture believing Protestants in general.

 

[thecolorsblend]

 

[bbbbbbb]

Good questions that I would like to hear the answers on as well. Though I don't think those beliefs are confined to only Pentecostals, I think they're actually held by the majority of pre-trib rapture believing Protestants in general.

You are quite correct. This whole idea is related to a general distrust of government in all its manifestations as well as to efforts to determine the "fact" that Jesus Christ will return "this year" at the latest. There is also the general susceptibility to believe various lies and rumors. For example, in the 1980's there was a widespread lie that Proctor and Gamble was actually owned and founded by Satanists, simply because their corporate logo was a moon with some stars.

The idea that the mark of the beast will be imposed on unwitting folks is very deeply rooted. I remember as a young child going with my Pentecostal grandparents to visit a public garden in Florida where our hands were given a rubber stamp to allow us to leave and return at will. My grandparents were literally beside themselves that we were being given the mark of the Beast and we would all fry in hell as a result (really not unlike the view that some members of some denominations hold that if their members cross the doorway and enter the church of any other denomination they have committed a mortal sin).

What is happening here is that the rhetoric is being ramped up that with the microchips embedded in people the government will be able to track folks and essentially place them under perpetual surveillance. This can be both positive and negative. Positively, owners can find lost pets and children who have embedded microchips. Negatively, governments such as the Communist Party of China can completely eliminate anything and anyone they view as any sort of threat.

 

[Blade]

In Rev 13 its written "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

So a chip today is just a chip nothing more. No believer will ever worship the beast. And you HAVE to worship it or you die.

As for the cross mark on your forehead. In truth I have never seen a person with one. Had many friends that were Catholic but.. never saw one of them with a cross on the forehead..so I can't say. For my self I would have to pray about it.. but I see nothing wrong with it. Its about Christ yes?

And people have earrings and cross around about the neck.. anyway

 

[bbbbbbb]

In Rev 13 its written "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

So a chip today is just a chip nothing more. No believer will ever worship the beast. And you HAVE to worship it or you die.

As for the cross mark on your forehead. In truth I have never seen a person with one. Had many friends that were Catholic but.. never saw one of them with a cross on the forehead..so I can't say. For my self I would have to pray about it.. but I see nothing wrong with it. Its about Christ yes?

And people have earrings and cross around about the neck.. anyway

Not to mention various "Christian" tattoos.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Not to mention various "Christian" tattoos.

Ages ago, a friend of mine texted me saying that she got a tattoo of a fish on her lower leg and a scripture verse on her arm or back or something. So I suggested her next tat should be Leviticus 19:28. She gleefully agreed and I let the matter drop.

A few days later, I noticed she'd unfriended me on Facebook. Can't imagine why...

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ages ago, a friend of mine texted me saying that she got a tattoo of a fish on her lower leg and a scripture verse on her arm or back or something. So I suggested her next tat should be Leviticus 19:28. She gleefully agreed and I let the matter drop.

A few days later, I noticed she'd unfriended me on Facebook. Can't imagine why...

Wow! I wonder why that could be?

 

[Panevino]

In Rev 13 its written "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

So a chip today is just a chip nothing more. No believer will ever worship the beast. And you HAVE to worship it or you die.

As for the cross mark on your forehead. In truth I have never seen a person with one. Had many friends that were Catholic but.. never saw one of them with a cross on the forehead..so I can't say. For my self I would have to pray about it.. but I see nothing wrong with it. Its about Christ yes?

And people have earrings and cross around about the neck.. anyway

A temporary mark is visible on Ash Wednesday (mark of cross on forehead with ash) beginning of Lent approx 40 day before Good Friday. Ash is from the burned palms used on Palm Sunday.

Sign of cross on forehead is made with thumb at every mass when it is announced the gospel will be read. But yes this is not a physical /visible Mark on the forehead.

At baptism and during anointing of the sick a sign of cross is made on our forehead by the priest with blessed oil.

But yes not a permanently visible mark.

 

[Panevino]

You are quite correct. This whole idea is related to a general distrust of government in all its manifestations as well as to efforts to determine the "fact" that Jesus Christ will return "this year" at the latest. There is also the general susceptibility to believe various lies and rumors. For example, in the 1980's there was a widespread lie that Proctor and Gamble was actually owned and founded by Satanists, simply because their corporate logo was a moon with some stars.

The idea that the mark of the beast will be imposed on unwitting folks is very deeply rooted. I remember as a young child going with my Pentecostal grandparents to visit a public garden in Florida where our hands were given a rubber stamp to allow us to leave and return at will. My grandparents were literally beside themselves that we were being given the mark of the Beast and we would all fry in hell as a result (really not unlike the view that some members of some denominations hold that if their members cross the doorway and enter the church of any other denomination they have committed a mortal sin).

What is happening here is that the rhetoric is being ramped up that with the microchips embedded in people the government will be able to track folks and essentially place them under perpetual surveillance. This can be both positive and negative. Positively, owners can find lost pets and children who have embedded microchips. Negatively, governments such as the Communist Party of China can completely eliminate anything and anyone they view as any sort of threat.

Yes
I recall reading in one of the 1st century books, may of been Josephus or Pliny that just prior the destruction of the temple the Roman empire was requiring people to visibly worship pagan gods to be able to buy and sell / function in society.
This is more in line with what I’d expect, particularly with the verse that mentions worship with act and mind (ie hand and forehead)
Exo 13:1-10 essentially explains that the Passover (foreshadow of the Mass/Eucharist for Catholics) is God sign on the hand and memorial on the forehead.
This makes me view gods sign on forehead to not necessarily be a visible mark but connected to Worship of God.

Accordingly it gives me a sense that the mark of the beast is also unnecessarily a physical Mark and more dangerously in my mind related to worship or at least with worship of the beast

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes
I recall reading in one of the 1st century books, may of been Josephus or Pliny that just prior the destruction of the temple the Roman empire was requiring people to visibly worship pagan gods to be able to buy and sell / function in society.
This is more in line with what I’d expect, particularly with the verse that mentions worship with act and mind (ie hand and forehead)
Exo 13:1-10 essentially explains that the Passover (foreshadow of the Mass/Eucharist for Catholics) is God sign on the hand and memorial on the forehead.
This makes me view gods sign on forehead to not necessarily be a visible mark but connected to Worship of God.

Accordingly it gives me a sense that the mark of the beast is also unnecessarily a physical Mark and more dangerously in my mind related to worship or at least with worship of the beast

I agree. Thank you.

 

[Bobber]

Background: I’m Catholic and don’t believe that a microchip is the mark of the beast, but understand it is the very prevalent and entrenched understanding among pentecostal Christians.

I wonder if any of the passionate debate of whether this is true or not is really necessary. What IF a government NOW or in the future declared you can't buy or sell if don't have the mark and reject Jesus Christ are you going to do it? I'm thinking the best of you that you wouldn't. You're not going to deny your faith period so at that point you'd now believe you can't take the computer chip.

Why or do? Pentecostals reject a Christian mark of the sign of the cross on forehead (ie example as done in Catholic church on Ash Wednesday or sign made with/without oil at Baptism, other blessings, during mass at announcement of the Gospels and also at anointing of the sick)

You might call me Pentecostal although I go to an non-denominational church. But it's not a matter of denomination anyway.....it's about what does God say in the Bible. To me if one wants to do this motion (making a sign of the cross on the forehead) is it just something one does as a form of worship???.....or does one actually PUT FAITH in the actual motion that it spiritually brings one power and if you don't do it you won't have it.

To me that's when it becomes wrong. It's wrong because it puts faith in the wrong thing. The Bible says we're to put our faith in the Name of the Lord which means we're acknowledging his place of having been given ultimate authority over the universe. Motions like even making the cross motion over ones heart isn't spoken of in the scriptures as a way to bring God's power. These things are however. Rev 12:11, John 14:13

I'm not against ones doing traditional things though. I do Christmas as well and enjoy it but see no mandate to do so in scripture.

 

[Lost4words]

I know quite a few people with a chip on their shoulder!

 

[Panevino]

I wonder if any of the passionate debate of whether this is true or not is really necessary. What IF a government NOW or in the future declared you can't buy or sell if don't have the mark and reject Jesus Christ are you going to do it? I'm thinking the best of you that you wouldn't. You're not going to deny your faith period so at that point you'd now believe you can't take the computer chip.

my post generally asks those that hold it, if the mark is chip alone or “chip with worship/rejection of Christ “. Your scenario is the later which is of course reasonable. In the past I was led to understand that the concern for the mark was chip alone, regardless of a requirement for worship.
Assume in your view it is both.

You might call me Pentecostal although I go to an non-denominational church. But it's not a matter of denomination anyway.....it's about what does God say in the Bible. To me if one wants to do this motion (making a sign of the cross on the forehead) is it just something one does as a form of worship???.....or does one actually PUT FAITH in the actual motion that it spiritually brings one power and if you don't do it you won't have it.

To me that's when it becomes wrong. It's wrong because it puts faith in the wrong thing. The Bible says we're to put our faith in the Name of the Lord which means we're acknowledging his place of having been given ultimate authority over the universe.

understand it’s not a kind of magic/superstition. In case you were not aware making the sign of the cross is a prayer (verbal and physical) for Catholics and orthodox and some Lutherans/Anglicans, calling on the authority (name) of each person of the trinity. I also like the inadvertent evangelization of it and clear identification it gives of a Christian.

Motions like even making the cross motion over ones heart isn't spoken of in the scriptures as a way to bring God's power. These things are however. Rev 12:11, John 14:13

but there is a mark for God in rev 8:4, 14:1
What do you consider this to be, does your church teach some thing on what it is?

I'm not against ones doing traditional things though. I do Christmas as well and enjoy it but see no mandate to do so in scripture.

Understand, but there are Examples of physical actions with faith in scripture that are (combined) conduits of grace
- Passover night - blood of lamb on door lintel and posts (shadow of cross) along with eating the lamb. (Foreshadow of Eucharist for Catholics (our pascal lamb)
- the cross
- st Paul’s handkerchief / etc..

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Background: I’m Catholic and don’t believe that a microchip is the mark of the beast,

Neither do I. I see the mark of the beast as a more internalized thing - i.e. on the Hand = evidence by WHAT YOU DO that you're "Beast oriented" instead of Christ oriented - and in the forehead - WHAT YOU THINK indicates that you're "Beast oriented" rather that Christ oriented. As a friend, who had escaped from East Germany said: "It's IMPOSSIBLE in the long term to HIDE what you truly are, when you're being watched critically all the time. The BEAST will KNOW who are his, and who are not.

but understand it is the very prevalent and entrenched understanding among pentecostal Christians.

I've been a Pentecostal (mostly Assemblies of God) for the last 56 years, and have heard all sorts of Stupid stuff for decades, but the "Chip" being the "Mark of the beast" certainly ISN'T foremost in Pentecostal thought, any more than the "Internet", or the "Social Security Number" has been in times past. Eschatology, after all is just another word for "Rank Speculation".

2. Why or do? Pentecostals reject a Christian mark of the sign of the cross on forehead (ie example as done in Catholic church on Ash Wednesday or sign made with/without oil at Baptism, other blessings, during mass at announcement of the Gospels and also at anointing of the sick)

Pentecostals are NON-Sacramental generally. And as such don't tend to bother with "Religious rituals" that mean nothing to us. I get "Ashes" now and again in the Methodist church (since they "get off" on religious ritualism). It means nothing, so getting them is unimportant - just "going with the flow".

3 I’m wondering if there is a disconnect /inconsistency (in Pentecostal thought( between the acceptability / validity of the Christian mark and the mark Of the beast ie mechanism of its effect (ie with/without worship)

Since both are essentially meaningless, we don't worry about it. WHen the REAL "Mark of the beast" comes along, I rather think we'll recognize it, and not worry about the "Lunatic fringe".

 

[Panevino]

Neither do I. I see the mark of the beast as a more internalized thing - i.e. on the Hand = evidence by WHAT YOU DO that you're "Beast oriented" instead of Christ oriented - and in the forehead - WHAT YOU THINK indicates that you're "Beast oriented" rather that Christ oriented. As a friend, who had escaped from East Germany said: "It's IMPOSSIBLE in the long term to HIDE what you truly are, when you're being watched critically all the time. The BEAST will KNOW who are his, and who are not.

Understood.
I recall a “destruction of the temple “(~70ad) writing (pliny or Josephus??) that described a demand to worship an image / prove loyalty to a god emperor /idol to be able to function in society (buy/sell)
This is more what I had in mind / also tend to agree with your view.

I've been a Pentecostal (mostly Assemblies of God) for the last 56 years, and have heard all sorts of Stupid stuff for decades, but the "Chip" being the "Mark of the beast" certainly ISN'T foremost in Pentecostal thought, any more than the "Internet", or the "Social Security Number" has been in times past. Eschatology, after all is just another word for "Rank Speculation".

thanks for your reply
I’m no expert in the denominations, I have heard from Assembly of God Christians in australia / South Americans who are quite convinced about it. But I know that it can change significance with different congregations in other cities / countries.

Pentecostals are NON-Sacramental generally. And as such don't tend to bother with "Religious rituals" that mean nothing to us. I get "Ashes" now and again in the Methodist church (since they "get off" on religious ritualism). It means nothing, so getting them is unimportant - just "going with the flow".

yeah I’m aware of the non/anti sacramentalism. Which is why I find it contradictory that
1. Some AoG almost see the chip in a kind of strawman sacramental view they accuse Catholics of. (Ie regardless of intent)
2. The fear / refusal of making a sign of the cross or marking a sign of cross on a forehead. It comes across as a superstitious fear. (Admittedly this impression is likely biased / influenced by my Catholic appreciation of the sign of the cross)

Since both are essentially meaningless, we don't worry about it. WHen the REAL "Mark of the beast" comes along, I rather think we'll recognize it, and not worry about the "Lunatic fringe".

Understood.
I guess I find your view consistent then of the counter forehead marks (ie intent / orientation)[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Bob Crowley]

I think it will be a chip of some sort. I don't know how widespread the issue is now, but there is at least one company in Sweden where employees require an implanted chip to get into the building, use their computers etc.

Part of the same prophecy is that "no one will be able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast." That's part and parcel of the whole thing. And it would have to be world wide to fulfil the conditons.

I've got a booklet at home put out by the "Commission for the Future" which was set up by the Hawke Goverment in Australia way back in the 1980's. This booklet was the result of one committee discussing the topic "Towards a Cashless Society". The chairman of the particular committee was one Philip Adams, who is an atheist, so it hardly had a religious bent.

In the report there was a remark that way back in the 1970's a think tank of American lawyers figured out that the easiest way for a government to keep tabs on its citizens would be the compulsory adaptation of electronic finance ie. a cashless society.

They'd know what you were buying, where you bought it, when you bought it, whether you purchased it online or over the counter, what you'd probably use it for, when you most likely had a meeting with others (eg. several coffees purchased at the same time), how long it would have taken you to drive to the location, how long you were probably there etc. etc. This would be coupled with computer analysis, greatly enhanced by AI, of your personal characteristics, political affiliation or religious beliefs, work or business and so on.

And if perchance you displeased someone in this dictatorship, they'd just electronically empty or disable your account. No food, no power, no shelter, no medical care, nothing.

Moreover if it is implanted in your hand or forehead, it would be somewhat difficult for someone to steal it and fraudulently use it, as they can a loose credit card, or I-Phone.

I'm not the cynic others are about this. Moreover one effect of the current pandemic has been to encourage the widespread use of cashless payments. Thought about that? Wouldn't tie in as one of the lead-ups to this particular prophecy would it, with satellites overhead, world wide electronic banking systems, apps on your mobile phone to enable social contact tracing, air force officers sitting in California firing Hellfire rockets at tribesman in the Hindu Kush, just at the very time the world seems to be entering a rather strange phase with China raising the anti in the South China Sea, India and Pakistan ratcheting up their nuclear stockpiles, Islamic fundamentalism on the rise in some parts, North Korea now nuclear, and Iran still allegedly trying to gain nuclear weaponry?

I think it's on its way.

 

[Major1]

Background: I’m Catholic and don’t believe that a microchip is the mark of the beast, but understand it is the very prevalent and entrenched understanding among pentecostal Christians.

I have a couple questions about it for those that believe it (these are not loaded questions and I’m not here to convince others of my view but am interested in others understanding)

1. Does the mere acceptance of the chip damn you or does it require a coincident form of worship of sorts

2. Why or do? Pentecostals reject a Christian mark of the sign of the cross on forehead (ie example as done in Catholic church on Ash Wednesday or sign made with/without oil at Baptism, other blessings, during mass at announcement of the Gospels and also at anointing of the sick)

2(a) if Pentecostals do reject this Christian sign on forehead what do they consider the mark/sign in Rev9:4, 14:1..Of course Pentecostals would not accept that the sign of cross could be a mere mechanical process of it being there alone but it would have to be seen on someone who is “born again” repentant / in state of grace etc...

3 I’m wondering if there is a disconnect /inconsistency (in Pentecostal thought( between the acceptability / validity of the Christian mark and the mark Of the beast ie mechanism of its effect (ie with/without worship)

It sounds to me like you have a problem with Pentecostals.

I believe that it is a prevalent thought among "Protestants" not just Pentecostals.

The answer may just be that they read and do Bible study to a greater degree than Catholics. Just a thought.

 

[Major1]

I think it will be a chip of some sort. I don't know how widespread the issue is now, but there is at least one company in Sweden where employees require an implanted chip to get into the building, use their computers etc.

Part of the same prophecy is that "no one will be able to buy or sell without the mark of the beast." That's part and parcel of the whole thing. And it would have to be world wide to fulfil the conditons.

I've got a booklet at home put out by the "Commission for the Future" which was set up by the Hawke Goverment in Australia way back in the 1980's. This booklet was the result of one committee discussing the topic "Towards a Cashless Society". The chairman of the particular committee was one Philip Adams, who is an atheist, so it hardly had a religious bent.

In the report there was a remark that way back in the 1970's a think tank of American lawyers figured out that the easiest way for a government to keep tabs on its citizens would be the compulsory adaptation of electronic finance ie. a cashless society.

They'd know what you were buying, where you bought it, when you bought it, whether you purchased it online or over the counter, what you'd probably use it for, when you most likely had a meeting with others (eg. several coffees purchased at the same time), how long it would have taken you to drive to the location, how long you were probably there etc. etc. This would be coupled with computer analysis, greatly enhanced by AI, of your personal characteristics, political affiliation or religious beliefs, work or business and so on.

And if perchance you displeased someone in this dictatorship, they'd just electronically empty or disable your account. No food, no power, no shelter, no medical care, nothing.

Moreover if it is implanted in your hand or forehead, it would be somewhat difficult for someone to steal it and fraudulently use it, as they can a loose credit card, or I-Phone.

I'm not the cynic others are about this. Moreover one effect of the current pandemic has been to encourage the widespread use of cashless payments. Thought about that? Wouldn't tie in as one of the lead-ups to this particular prophecy would it, with satellites overhead, world wide electronic banking systems, apps on your mobile phone to enable social contact tracing, air force officers sitting in California firing Hellfire rockets at tribesman in the Hindu Kush, just at the very time the world seems to be entering a rather strange phase with China raising the anti in the South China Sea, India and Pakistan ratcheting up their nuclear stockpiles, Islamic fundamentalism on the rise in some parts, North Korea now nuclear, and Iran still allegedly trying to gain nuclear weaponry?

I think it's on its way.

You may be right and I would not argue it. However, is a "Chip" under the skin really a "Mark" on the hand or forehead as is described by the Bible?.

A "MARK" indicates something easily seen or observed and a "Chip" is just the opposite.

Consider the UPC Bar Code. It is a MARK, easily seen and used not universally to buy and sell goods.

 

[Major1]

I wonder if any of the passionate debate of whether this is true or not is really necessary. What IF a government NOW or in the future declared you can't buy or sell if don't have the mark and reject Jesus Christ are you going to do it? I'm thinking the best of you that you wouldn't. You're not going to deny your faith period so at that point you'd now believe you can't take the computer chip.



You might call me Pentecostal although I go to an non-denominational church. But it's not a matter of denomination anyway.....it's about what does God say in the Bible. To me if one wants to do this motion (making a sign of the cross on the forehead) is it just something one does as a form of worship???.....or does one actually PUT FAITH in the actual motion that it spiritually brings one power and if you don't do it you won't have it.

To me that's when it becomes wrong. It's wrong because it puts faith in the wrong thing. The Bible says we're to put our faith in the Name of the Lord which means we're acknowledging his place of having been given ultimate authority over the universe. Motions like even making the cross motion over ones heart isn't spoken of in the scriptures as a way to bring God's power. These things are however. Rev 12:11, John 14:13

I'm not against ones doing traditional things though. I do Christmas as well and enjoy it but see no mandate to do so in scripture.

On the other hand.......if you had a couple of children crying and complaining about being hungry and all you had to do was allow a MARK to placed on your skin and then everyone could eat and be happy......how long would you hold out?????

Pentecostal has nothing to do with it at all.