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Micheal's solar model

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by RealityCheck01, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

    +1,677
    Christian
    Ferrofluids are an example of a liquid with the ability to hold angular shapes in the presence of magnetic fields. The plasma underneath could have a more dense, and cooler composition, and therefore be less "viscous" than lighter, thinner, hotter plasma layers above.

    IMO it's the way that active regions form and stay localized to a region, along with the way that running difference images hold their angular patterns for long periods of time that favors a thin volcanic surface model IMO.

    In theory however, the cathode surface could simply be a more dense plasma layer that is located under the surface of the photosphere.
     
  2. [serious]

    [serious] 'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA Supporter

    +1,651
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    I assume you mean more viscous

    But to clarify, you aren't talking about an actual rigid structure, but a freely flowing fluid held in some shape by magnetic forces a la ferrofluids, correct? Possibly with a different viscosity?
     
  3. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    Yep. Sorry about that. :)

    As I said, I'm inclined to lean toward an actual solid volcanic surface at this point, but yes, it could still be a more dense plasma double layer. The longevity of the angular features seen in iron ion RD images is very different than say the longevity of RD images of the photosphere where the structures come and go in about 10-12 minute intervals.
     
  4. RealityCheck01

    RealityCheck01 Newbie

    +787
    Atheist
    Simulations of the effects of the solar wind on the Earth exist - that video is the latest :doh:!

    A "solid volcanic surface" delusion - the average temperature of the Sun at the surface alone (~5700 K) is higher than the melting point of elements, especially Fe. The Sun gets hotter with depth (basic thermodynamics + measurements).

    Michael knows that he has a decade old delusion that TRACE 171A running difference images of light from Fe IX plasma at temperatures of 160,000 to 2 million K that is thousands of kilometers above photosphere is of a rigid iron surface below the photosphere.

    Michael knows why the running difference images have persistent features - solar flares are "persistent"! The images show plasma heating up one side of solar flares and cooling down on the other side thousands of kilometers above photosphere.
     
  5. RealityCheck01

    RealityCheck01 Newbie

    +787
    Atheist
    You still do not understand that this one TRACE video ("iron ion running difference images") you have been obsessing with for the last 11 years or so is of solar flares thousands of kilometers above the photosphere.
     
  6. RealityCheck01

    RealityCheck01 Newbie

    +787
    Atheist
    I noticed what looks like a fantasy or even lie of a "serious "reconnection" problem".
    30 November 2016 Michael: Quote the paper on solar convection stating that this is a serious problem with magnetic reconnection (in plasma!).

    I have not avoided the truth that computer models of solar convection disagree with a 2012 measurement of convection speeds inside the Sun.

    I also noticed the citation of a climate denial web site as a source of reliable science :eek:! But in this case their description of the paper is reasonable.
     
  7. RealityCheck01

    RealityCheck01 Newbie

    +787
    Atheist
    Not right - there are no "layers".
    The mostly hydrogen corona is much hotter than the transition region.
    The mostly hydrogen transition region is much hotter than the chromosphere.
    The mostly hydrogen chromosphere is much hotter than the photosphere.
    The mostly hydrogen photosphere is much cooler then the solar interior which increases from the ~5700 K of the photosphere to near 15.7 million kelvins at the core.
    There is no evidence that the composition of the Sun alters with depth or that there are your layers. You have cited measurements of convection currents going through your imaginary layers :eek:!
     
  8. RealityCheck01

    RealityCheck01 Newbie

    +787
    Atheist
    We point an instrument at the Sun and record the light from
    * the photosphere (~5700 K, containing Ne and Si)
    * the chromosphere (up to 35,000 K ,containing Ne and Si)
    * the transition zone (up to about a million K, containing Ne and Si)
    * the corona (over a million K, containing Ne and Si)
    What is surprising about detecting that Ne and Si at various ionizations exist in hot plasma above the photosphere?
     
  9. [serious]

    [serious] 'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA Supporter

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    Hopping back here, what mechanism could maintain a cooler interior like that?

    I know there is some weirdness from the chromosphere being hotter than the photosphere due to the interior heating both, but the photosphere more efficiently radiating that energy away. I can't think of any suitable mechanism that would cool the interior.
     
  10. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    Christian


    The "mechanism" is exactly the same mechanism that generates the (relatively hot) corona around this sphere, and around every sun. We observe a steady flow of charged particles flowing off the sphere and interacting with particles in the atmosphere. Furthermore, that charged particle flow is consistently moving *away from* the surface, carrying heat with it.


    There's nothing particularly "mysterious" about the heat source of the corona.
     
  11. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    You still remain in staunch denial of the fact that coronal loops are *three dimensional structures* which originate *far below* the surface of the photosphere. The larger ones rise up and through the photosphere, and far into the corona. As they do this, they leave their magnetic field and heat signatures on the surface of the photosphere which we *routinely* observe in SDO magnetogram images.
     
  12. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    The surprising part is the fact the solar atmosphere is *layered* in a way that allows for the highest temperatures to be the *furthest away* from the surface. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  13. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    You just listed three distinct plasma *layers*, all of which show a *pattern* of hotter layers on top, and cooler layers below. How nice of you to shoot your own argument in the foot like that. :)
     
  14. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

    +1,677
    Christian
    No, what looks like a fantasy or even a serious lie was your *falsified prediction* of a fast solar convection process to "power" the solar atmospheric processes. Instead of being jet speed "fast", solar convection speeds are *2 orders of magnitude* slower than you "predicted", and occur at *walking speeds* at best. So much for the value of your solar model. You missed it by a mile!

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/07...wer-than-scientists-had-previously-projected/
     
  15. [serious]

    [serious] 'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA Supporter

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    Let me check to make sure I understand you. you are saying the core of the sun cools itself by transferring heat to the corona?
     
  16. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

    +1,677
    Christian
    Not exactly. The sun's surface isn't that "hot" compared to the plasma atmosphere anymore than the surface of that metal sphere in that video is "hot". The plasma above the sphere is however being bombarded by electrons and the atmosphere around the sphere is picking up heat that way. That heat is continuously *carried away* from the surface of the sphere by the kinetic energy of the electrons which tend to push all particles they collide with (positive and negative) away from the surface.

    The density of the material, the conductivity of the material, and it's proximity to the surface determine the amount of "heat" that's ultimately transferred to each layer of the plasma. The outer layers are hotter than the inner layers, and all the atmospheric layers are conducting current.
     
  17. [serious]

    [serious] 'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA Supporter

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    I dont follow. walk me through it.

    Let's start with there existing a temperature differential as you describe, with the core of the sun being cooler than the photosphere. the photosphere radiates heat, some of which escapes, some of which heats the core. How does the core get rid of that heat to prevent it from reaching thermal equalibrium with its surroundings?

    For example, the mainstream understanding is that the corona is heated by magnetic forces from the core, as is the photosphere. because the photosphere is not as fully ionized, it is able to more effectively radiate that heat away to space. the corona is instead insulated in a way by the ionization and stays hot.
     
  18. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

    +1,677
    Christian
    Fair enough. I think it's *imperative* that we start with a *working model*. Please allow me to include that short explanation and video for anyone that hasn't already looked at it. It's absolutely necessary to understand the basic idea, and to see a working "corona" in action in the lab:



    Now we can add a few double layers to Birkeland's model, and I think you'll be understand how his model can be applied to SDO images a lot better.

    It might be easier to start with the video and notice the temperature differential between the surface of the solid sphere, and the corona around the sphere. The corona around the sphere may be "hot", but it's not particularly "dense" compared to the surrounding sphere. If all the molecules on the surface of the sphere were at the same temperature as the corona in that video, the spheres would melt. Fortunately that doesn't happen. :)

    To properly understand the model that I'm proposing, you're going to have to add a few extra "double layers" between the blue corona that we can observe in that video, and the solid surface.

    Each of the various double layers in the solar atmosphere is arranged by atomic weight.

    The corona contains the lightest elements, mostly hydrogen, and the other "solar wind" particles that are flowing up from below. It also contains many "coronal loops", but we'll save the surface to surface discharge conversation for a later date.

    The chromosphere is another current carrying double layer that is mostly made of helium, but like all layers, there's a constant flow of various particles through that plasma layer.

    The "photosphere" is mostly composed of neon, but again a lot of various elements flow through it, and it's essentially "white" due to the emission of all the various wavelengths of the various elements that are present in the neon double layer.

    Below that neon double layer that you're calling a "photosphere", sits another double layer of silicon plasma that is probably quite "deep" compared to any of the other double layers.

    Each of the various double layers is more dense, and cooler as we work down from the corona towards the solid surface.

    None of the various double layers are particularly "dense" compared to the solid surface itself.

    The solid surface is still the cathode surface as it is with that video, and all the various double layers are "lit up" due to the flow of current through double layers.

    The mainstream already concedes that the corona is hotter than the chromosphere, and the chromosphere is hotter than the surface of the photosphere. That is because the flow of current from the cathode is the ultimate source of heat, and it arrives in the form of kinetic energy that is transferred to material in the atmosphere by the high speed electrons flowing off the sphere.

    The net result of the kinetic energy flow is a movement of particles up and away from the surface of the cathode, and toward "space".

    The corona in that video also "radiates heat", but the density of the material precludes it from "melting" the solid cathode.

    It's technically ridding itself of heated particles by moving them away from the cathode surface. As the high speed electrons slam into particles in the atmosphere it pushes them outward, away from the cathode surface. We see that occurring rapidly at the surface of the photosphere. It gives the surface an appearance of "boiling water".

    So why is it that we sometimes observe much *cooler* material inside of "sunspots"?

    The mainstream has a bad habit of denying the role of electrical *current* in solar physics and instead they try to make magnetic lines do all sorts of various heating and cooling "magic tricks". Alfven actually called their mathematical models "pseudoscience" till the day that he died. He actually made all "reconnection" maths completely irrelevant and obsolete with his double layer paper, not that the mainstream ever cared.

    Alfven like Birkeland before him used *circuit theory* and electric fields to explain the temperature gradients in the solar atmosphere, not "magnetic lines".

    The corona (and other various double layers) are not staying hot because they are "insulated". The corona is staying "hot" because of the electrons (cathode rays) that are flowing through it, and the coronal loops that pump heat into all the various double layers. Just as is true with that working model in the video, the moment that we switch off the electric field, the plasma atmosphere ceases to exist, and the light show is over.
     
  19. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    Christian
    http://news.stanford.edu/news/2001/november7/sunspot-117.html

    There are two key points that I need to address from this article as it relates to a Birkeland cathode solar model:

    So already the mainstream is perplexed. It is faced with the fact that *cooler* plasma is found to be flowing *outward* from sunspots. How does it get to be 3000 degrees cooler in the first place? Where did it come from? It had to come from below because they observe the outward flow of material at the surface of the photosphere.

    The sound waves can pick up speed not *just* in hot plasma, but in a more dense (solid) material too. :)

    There's approximately 3000 miles between the surface of the photosphere, and the cathode surface in Birkeland's model. We can tell that from the sound waves and see where they start to travel at a much different speed than they do in the atmosphere.

    The other point worth noting is that this 3000 degree cooler plasma has to remain cool for thousands of miles. How does that happen exactly in a mainstream model? Magic magnetic fields apparently.

    Both the presence of a cooler plasma material that is located beneath the surface of the photosphere, as well as the sound wave patterns we observe in sunspots are entirely congruent with Birkeland's solar model. The solid cathode surface sits 3000 miles below the surface of the photosphere. The electrical current travels more efficiently in the denser plasma that is lower in the atmosphere, but it cannot travel that efficiently in the upper, lighter atmosphere. It tends to heat the light plasma upper layers at a faster rate than the lower, denser layers in the atmosphere.
     
  20. mzungu

    mzungu INVICTUS

    +183
    Atheist
    Married
    Iron core? Are you implying that the Sun's energy derives from the fusion of iron atoms?
     
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