Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

grafted branch said:

I don’t agree with David on many things but I do also think it’s a possibility that Daniel 12:1 and the Revelation 12 war happens just after the cross.

In Daniel 7:10 the books were opened, and just as in Revelation 20:12, people are judged out of the things written in the books. In Daniel 7:13 one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of days. This scene could be Christ’s ascension which becomes the war in heaven, that is a court room battle. Satan accuses the brethren by the open books, Jesus presents his blood to pay for those sins which results in Satan and his angels having no place found for them anymore in heaven .

Click to expand...

We can go through it a step at a time, and see where it leads us.
In Daniel 7, the vision describes beasts, which we know represent kingdoms on earth.
These beasts correspond to the the image in Daniel 2.

If we agree so far, the next step is the stream of time we are in.
If we agree that we are in the time after the fearsome beast - the kingdom of Rome (we don't need to be accurate here, but just a picture for reference I like to use visuals.).



Daniel 7:13, 14 takes place in, or around the time of the little horn.


Daniel 7:
8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
9 “I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated;
10 The court was seated, And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.
12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

This is a judgment - The court was seated, And the books were opened. ->> I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. ->> As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
Not complete destruction, but a judgment by the Ancient of Days, and his court officials.
What follows?
13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

The time arrives for the chosen King - the one to execute God's judgment, to be crowned.
If we agree, then the war in heaven occurs after the crumbling of Rome as a world power, and the time when the toes of the great image are rising.

That would place the war in heaven, at around this time.

Daniel 7:13, 14

Remember, we have passed here


We are moving down the feet to the toes.
The greatest European imperial forces ever to exist were Rome and Britain. They controlled much of their known world and subjugated many foreign peoples to their rule. Rome ruled lands from India to the Atlantic Ocean, while Britain had colonies across the entire globe.
The British Empire was at the height of its power in the Nineteenth Century, nearly 1200 years after the city of Rome was sacked by invading barbarian tribes. Even with more than a millennia passing between the fall of one empire and the rise of the other; they still shared many similarities in their manner of rule.

We are here -


We can leave a question mark on the feet and toes, since we are focusing on other things.
Are you with me, so far?


Revelation 20:12 occurs well into the future.
This occurs, not when Satan is cast down to earth, but rather, after Satan is bound.

After the Saints sit as judges.
After the resurrection.

grafted branch said:

In Daniel 12:2 there is a resurrection of many who are judged, in Matthew 27:52-53 there is a resurrection of many saints. Some problems here are that the word saints is almost always believers not unbelievers. In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses blessed the children of Israel collectively and called them saints. Those resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 were saints (not Gentiles).

Click to expand...

There are problems here.

1. Daniel 12:2 is similar to Matthew 5:28, 29, which are both future, and fits Revelation 20:11-15
2. If Matthew 27:52-53 is describing a resurrection, then Paul made an error. However, we know Peter won't have that. 2 Peter 3:16. We aren't going to have that either.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Paul tells us, further - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So what happened?
When the earthquake occurred, many bodies rose up above ground.
In other words, dead bodies of Saints were exposed, and this was reported.
There is no other explained that would not contradict the scriptures, which do not put Christ as the second, third... twentieth, from the dead.
Christ is the first anointed son to receive a heavenly resurrection, and immortality.
Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5;
Anything contrary is wrong. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45 See John 5:26; John 11:24, 25

Are we in agreement here?

grafted branch said:

No my point is that the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is given in Genesis 1:14. They are for signs, seasons, days, and years.

In Hebrews 12:22 we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem. Revelation 21:23 describes that Jerusalem as having no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it.

The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is not currently before God, therefore according to Jeremiah 31 Israel has ceased from being a nation before God forever.

Click to expand...

Describe how the sun, moon and stars are no longer doing what they were created to do.

CoreyD said:

We can go through it a step at a time, and see where it leads us.
In Daniel 7, the vision describes beasts, which we know represent kingdoms on earth.
These beasts correspond to the the image in Daniel 2.

If we agree so far, the next step is the stream of time we are in.

Click to expand...

I with you here, I agree

CoreyD said:

Remember, we have passed here


We are moving down the feet to the toes.
The greatest European imperial forces ever to exist were Rome and Britain. They controlled much of their known world and subjugated many foreign peoples to their rule. Rome ruled lands from India to the Atlantic Ocean, while Britain had colonies across the entire globe.
The British Empire was at the height of its power in the Nineteenth Century, nearly 1200 years after the city of Rome was sacked by invading barbarian tribes. Even with more than a millennia passing between the fall of one empire and the rise of the other; they still shared many similarities in their manner of rule.

Click to expand...

Here’s where we start to differ.

In Daniel 7:26-27 after the judgement sits his dominion is taken away and is given to the people of the saints, the kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. This happened during the fourth beast, Roman Empire, in the first century. Some didn’t taste death before they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:28).

CoreyD said:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 15:23 says every man in his order, as in rank, Christ is first which then allows others (mankind) to be next but doesn’t give a complete list of all the resurrections from the dead, it only shows two resurrections. In Revelation 20:5 it says the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, these are not included in 1 Corinthians 15:23 unless the word “order” means Christ comes first and then all others come afterwards. Also let’s not forget the resurrection of the two witnesses, this happens during the second woe, this resurrection to heaven isn’t listed in 1 Corinthians 15:23 either is it?

CoreyD said:

So what happened?
When the earthquake occurred, many bodies rose up above ground.
In other words, dead bodies of Saints were exposed, and this was reported.
There is no other explained that would not contradict the scriptures, which do not put Christ as the second, third... twentieth, from the dead.
Christ is the first anointed son to receive a heavenly resurrection, and immortality.
Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5;
Anything contrary is wrong. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45 See John 5:26; John 11:24, 25

Are we in agreement here?

Click to expand...

Definitely not in agreement here.

In Matthew 27:52 many bodies of the saints which slept arose. The word arose <1453> is the same word used to say “I will rise again” in Matthew 27:63. We would never come to the conclusion that Christ meant his body would just be exposed in this verse. He meant actually, physically arising.

Matthew 27:53 and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

What more can I say about this verse, the bodies came out of the graves (tomb/sepulcher) after His resurrection which puts this event well after the earth quake and this is clearly talking about those who came out of the grave not someone else reporting on what they had seen. Would we ever say after Christ died some of the accounts of Him were just others reporting on what they had seen and not the actual risen Christ?

Rejecting a physical resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53, which happened after His resurrection, seems problematic to me. The methods used to do this sets a dangerous precedent that’s not used elsewhere. The Matthew 27 resurrection is an important piece of information which helps us understand other scriptures.

Here are some things to consider. In 2 Timothy 2:17-18 Paul, dealing with the subject of false teachers, says Hymenaeus and Philetus have erred from the truth and say that the resurrection is past already. How could such a teaching even appear or how could anyone even claim the resurrection already happen? All they had to do was to look in the tombs, this is common sense. If the Matthew 27 resurrection left some empty tombs then you do have reason for a false teacher to declare the final resurrection had taken place, and that they missed it.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Paul talks about the coming of Christ and our being gathering to him and assures them that day didn’t already come. Why would Paul have to go into detail about the falling away and man of sin being revealed if the resurrection of all the dead people on earth was the most obvious and easiest way of telling if the coming of Christ had occurred or not? Answer, they knew about the Matthew 27 resurrection and thought they missed it, Paul shows a different way to tell besides resurrection.

Timtofly said:

Describe how the sun, moon and stars are no longer doing what they were created to do.

Click to expand...

If the ordinances depart from before God then Israel is no longer a nation forever. Notice it doesn’t say if the ordinances depart from before mankind.

2 Peter 3:8 one day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Is God currently using the ordinances as described in Genesis 1:14? Does God abide by His own ordinances that are before Him?

grafted branch said:

If the ordinances depart from before God then Israel is no longer a nation forever. Notice it doesn’t say if the ordinances depart from before mankind.

2 Peter 3:8 one day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Is God currently using the ordinances as described in Genesis 1:14? Does God abide by His own ordinances that are before Him?

Click to expand...

Now you are saying God is no longer around. If they still work for humans, why are they not working for God, unless you claim God has left creation altogether?

Yes, a thousand years on earth was the Sabbath day to God. They have not changed for God, nor creation.

Timtofly said:

Now you are saying God is no longer around. If they still work for humans, why are they not working for God, unless you claim God has left creation altogether?

Yes, a thousand years on earth was the Sabbath day to God. They have not changed for God, nor creation.

Click to expand...

In Jeremiah 31:35 it says Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night. Here the Lord is giving us the ordinances again, the sun is the light in the day and the moon and stars are lights at night.

Claiming that a thousand years on earth is one day to God means He is not using the celestial movements or the ordinances. That means God doesn’t abide by the ordinances that are before Him or the ordinances have departed. Which is it?

grafted branch said:

Claiming that a thousand years on earth is one day to God means He is not using the celestial movements or the ordinances. That means God doesn’t abide by the ordinances that are before Him or the ordinances have departed. Which is it?

Click to expand...

The same way one day is an era of time consisting of a literal 24 hours, the same has to be true per the following, one day is an era of time consisting of a literal thousand years. Which means every time 10 centuries pass, one day has passed, the same way every time 24 hours pass, one day has passed. It is ludicrous to somehow take one day in 2 Peter 3 to mean a 24 hour day rather than a thousand year day. It means a thousand year day, it says so right in the text itself.

that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The text does not say 2 days, nor 3 days, so on and so on, are as a thousand years. It says one day is. And interestingly enough, we are approaching the end of 6000 years, thus six 1000 year days. Even in the days not far from the time of the Apostles, there were saints that easily comprehended this, such as the following shows. Obviously, from what is written below, none of these saints took one day to mean a 24 hour day when it is involving a thousand years in particular. It's plainly obvious they didn't.

--------------------------------------------
Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree [of life ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject .
-----------------------

Technically speaking, Adam died the same day he was created. We all die the same day we are born, again, technically speaking, since no one is able to live an entire day and beyond, an entire thousand years and beyond. Not one person since the beginning of time has done that yet, lived an entire thousand years. But, if it is wrong to take one day to mean an era of time involving a literal thousand years, it should be equally wrong to take one day to mean an era of time involving 24 hours. IOW, it is cherry picking, thus not even logical to begin with, to insist only the latter is true, the former isn't.

Yet, we have to use discernment and common sense here. We can't insist one day always means a thousand years every time. Obviously, context and good common sense helps to determine that.

grafted branch said:

In Jeremiah 31:35 it says Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night. Here the Lord is giving us the ordinances again, the sun is the light in the day and the moon and stars are lights at night.

Claiming that a thousand years on earth is one day to God means He is not using the celestial movements or the ordinances. That means God doesn’t abide by the ordinances that are before Him or the ordinances have departed. Which is it?

Click to expand...

Neither option.

I already pointed out that was apparent in Genesis 2. The Day of the Lord was experienced on earth a thousand years, while God was at rest. There have been 7 Days for God's time, since creation. The Millennium Kingdom of Jesus Christ will be the 8th Day to the Lord. That has been true the whole of creation.

You are the one who seems to think that something changed. No, the relationship between God and creation has always been the same. Man's relationship with God has changed over the millenia. Obviously there has been two different Covenants at the least.

Timtofly said:

Neither option.

Click to expand...

Genesis 1:19 and the evening and the morning were the fourth day. The Jewish day begins at sunset (evening) and ends on the next sunset (evening), as shown in Genesis. This is based on the celestial movements (how the sun and moon are observed from earth).

You apparently think the ordinances are before God and He is abiding by them, yet when the celestial movements create a new evening we on earth will call it a new day based on God’s ordinances but God himself doesn’t call it a new day. Something or someone has to be incorrect here. We know it can’t be God. The only option left is that mankind has always misinterpreted what a day is. Is that what you believe?

Timtofly said:

I already pointed out that was apparent in Genesis 2. The Day of the Lord was experienced on earth a thousand years, while God was at rest. There have been 7 Days for God's time, since creation. The Millennium Kingdom of Jesus Christ will be the 8th Day to the Lord. That has been true the whole of creation.

Click to expand...

It doesn’t mention a thousand years anywhere in Genesis 2.

Timtofly said:

You are the one who seems to think that something changed. No, the relationship between God and creation has always been the same. Man's relationship with God has changed over the millenia. Obviously there has been two different Covenants at the least.

Click to expand...

Not just me, the scriptures themselves show a new heaven and new earth. Things changed when the new covenant came into force, 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Things becoming new includes heaven and earth, at least spiritually speaking.

Hebrews 12:22 we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:23 new Jerusalem has no need of the sun or moon to shine in it.

DavidPT said:

The same way one day is an era of time consisting of a literal 24 hours, the same has to be true per the following, one day is an era of time consisting of a literal thousand years. Which means every time 10 centuries pass, one day has passed, the same way every time 24 hours pass, one day has passed. It is ludicrous to somehow take one day in 2 Peter 3 to mean a 24 hour day rather than a thousand year day. It means a thousand year day, it says so right in the text itself.

that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The text does not say 2 days, nor 3 days, so on and so on, are as a thousand years. It says one day is. And interestingly enough, we are approaching the end of 6000 years, thus six 1000 year days. Even in the days not far from the time of the Apostles, there were saints that easily comprehended this, such as the following shows. Obviously, from what is written below, none of these saints took one day to mean a 24 hour day when it is involving a thousand years in particular. It's plainly obvious they didn't.

--------------------------------------------
Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, 'According to the days of the tree [of life ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years . We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, 'The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,' is connected with this subject .

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 69-88 (Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

-----------------------

Technically speaking, Adam died the same day he was created. We all die the same day we are born, again, technically speaking, since no one is able to live an entire day and beyond, an entire thousand years and beyond. Not one person since the beginning of time has done that yet, lived an entire thousand years. But, if it is wrong to take one day to mean an era of time involving a literal thousand years, it should be equally wrong to take one day to mean an era of time involving 24 hours. IOW, it is cherry picking, thus not even logical to begin with, to insist only the latter is true, the former isn't.

Yet, we have to use discernment and common sense here. We can't insist one day always means a thousand years every time. Obviously, context and good common sense helps to determine that.

Click to expand...

Biblically, every new evening starts a new day and this is based entirely on the ordinances given to us in Genesis. The Jews saw it this way and they were never told this was incorrect, I don’t know of anyone who would argue against this belief, except maybe some here on this forum.



365.25 X 1,000 = 365,250. Does God use the ordinances in Genesis to determine what a day is? Apparently not if 365,250 evenings have to take place before he recognizes it as a day. If you want to call it an era of time that’s fine, I’m not arguing against that, but God isn’t using the Genesis definition, which means those ordinances are not before Him, which means the Jeremiah 31:36 promise has come to pass.

I just want to put this out here as to how I see 2 Peter 3:8. God can obviously transcend time so he can be here today and a thousand years away tomorrow, no problem and He has always had this ability but that doesn’t have anything to do with the ordinances being before Him or not.

I'll address the rest of your post after we get this cleared.

grafted branch said:

In Daniel 7:26-27 after the judgement sits his dominion is taken away and is given to the people of the saints, the kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. This happened during the fourth beast, Roman Empire, in the first century. Some didn’t taste death before they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom (Matthew 16:28).

Click to expand...

Step 2 is important - which is the stream of time we are in.
According to Daniel 7:26-27, where are we? We are in the time after the fearsome beast. No?

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Are we here - its legs of iron

Or here - its feet partly of iron and partly of clay

From verses 21-27?

CoreyD said:

Are we here - its legs of iron

Or here - its feet partly of iron and partly of clay

From verses 21-27?

Click to expand...

The people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom in the iron legs (Roman Empire) area of the statue. There is a mixture of iron and clay until 70Ad when the stone cut without hands breaks the statue.

This is my opinion but I do see other possibilities as to when the stone breaks the statue, so I’m not going to give a hard debate on that.

I think the key here is pin down when the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom.

grafted branch said:

Genesis 1:19 and the evening and the morning were the fourth day. The Jewish day begins at sunset (evening) and ends on the next sunset (evening), as shown in Genesis. This is based on the celestial movements (how the sun and moon are observed from earth).

You apparently think the ordinances are before God and He is abiding by them, yet when the celestial movements create a new evening we on earth will call it a new day based on God’s ordinances but God himself doesn’t call it a new day. Something or someone has to be incorrect here. We know it can’t be God. The only option left is that mankind has always misinterpreted what a day is. Is that what you believe?

It doesn’t mention a thousand years anywhere in Genesis 2.

Not just me, the scriptures themselves show a new heaven and new earth. Things changed when the new covenant came into force, 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Things becoming new includes heaven and earth, at least spiritually speaking.

Hebrews 12:22 we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:23 new Jerusalem has no need of the sun or moon to shine in it.

Click to expand...

This was your post about Israel being a nation:

grafted branch said:

Israel will never be a nation before God ever again according to Jeremiah 31:35-36.

Click to expand...

Then you claim the ordinances stopped working for God, but work for us. Then you claimed it had to work for God at one point, but then you claimed they never worked for God at all.

Time works for God, because that is the relationship God has with creation. God is the alpha and omega. The beginning and the end, and every time reference was created by God.

Genesis 2 does not have to say 1,000 years. It does not say 24 hours either. It states the Day of the Lord.

No one is saying God needs time nor is limited by time. But there is still this relationship between time and God.

For one, there was light and time and 24 hours, evening and morning, even before the sun and moon were created and placed in the firmament. 3 full days on earth before those two lights even gave us time. So time was already a relationship with God prior to the ordinances you are talking about.

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

"And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

It was on the 4th day that those ordinances were placed in the firmament. That was after 3 full days of time with God, and the earth.

Revelation 21 is a totally separate creation from this creation. There will not be a nation of Israel, nor any nation like we know them today in the next creation. It will not even be the same earth, firmament, nor heaven. The stars in the firmament between heaven and earth will not be what we see today.

Israel will still be a nation before God, as long as there is a sun and moon. That is not how you reason that out. You claim creation itself has to stop being what God intended it to be in relationship with God. Since God is the beginning and end, how does that relationship change in between the beginning and the end? God does not hand creation over to another entity equal with God, to remove Himself from being the end. And there is not a single verse stating the sun and moon are removed from creation at any point prior to the end of creation itself.

Your whole point was based on God’s relationship to the sun and moon, but that was never the point made in Jeremiah at all. The whole of creation is in God's presence and as the verse puts it:

"depart from before me"

That means if they stop existing. It does not have anything to do with how they affect God. In fact according to the first 3 days of creation, they are not even necessary. There was still light and darkness, evening and morning, before there was a sun and moon. So while it would seem strange not to see either the sun nor moon, time would still go on, and we would still have day and night, but evidently no more nation of Israel either.

Timtofly said:

Then you claim the ordinances stopped working for God, but work for us. Then you claimed it had to work for God at one point, but then you claimed they never worked for God at all.

Click to expand...

I didn’t mean to imply that. Jeremiah 31 only talks about the ordinances that are before God.

Depending on your view, the departure of the ordinances may or may not happen simultaneously between God and humans. Whenever new Jerusalem is realized, that is whenever in time you think this happens, that’s when both God and humans have no need of the sun or moon to shine on them.

To clarify I do think the ordinances were before God and He was recognizing a day as one evening to the next evening. At some point the ordinances depart, I’m trying to find out how you can have the ordinances before God while at the same time God doesn’t use those ordinances.

Timtofly said:

Genesis 2 does not have to say 1,000 years. It does not say 24 hours either. It states the Day of the Lord.

Click to expand...

Right, but it also states clearly that an evening and morning are a day, which nearly everyone on the planet agrees with.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 21 is a totally separate creation from this creation. There will not be a nation of Israel, nor any nation like we know them today in the next creation. It will not even be the same earth, firmament, nor heaven. The stars in the firmament between heaven and earth will not be what we see today.

Click to expand...

I’m in agreement with Israel at some point not being a nation and the Jeremiah 31:36 promise being fulfilled.

Do you agree then that any eternal, unconditional promises made by God have not been made to the nation of Israel but to those who are Jews inwardly?

Timtofly said:

Israel will still be a nation before God, as long as there is a sun and moon.

Click to expand...

That statement is false, Israel only remains a nation until the ordinances depart from before God.

Timtofly said:

"depart from before me"

That means if they stop existing.

Click to expand...

Right, if the ordinances stop existing from before God. It doesn’t say if the sun or moon stops existing, nor does it say humans are going to stop using the ordinances, it specifically says the ordinances depart from before God.

grafted branch said:

That statement is false, Israel only remains a nation until the ordinances depart from before God.

Click to expand...

Which means they cease to exist. Your point is that God has left creation, and can no longer be found.

Obviously the sun and moon are still here.

Timtofly said:

Which means they cease to exist. Your point is that God has left creation, and can no longer be found.

Click to expand...

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God casts away the nation but not the people. That’s why there is no difference between Jew and Gentiles.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Timtofly said:

Obviously the sun and moon are still here.

Click to expand...

Yes, a physical new heaven and new earth have not happened yet. That doesn’t prove one way or the other whether the ordinances are before God.
We worship God in spirit and we have come to new Jerusalem, at least in spirit.

@Timtofly One other problem you have with this one day of creation equals a thousand years is that in John 14:2 Jesus says I go to prepare a place for you.

If it took 6,000 years to create our current heaven and earth then we are only 2,000 years into the creation of new heaven and new earth. If Jesus stops creating the new heaven new earth and rests during the millennium then you’re going to have to wait another 4,000 years. Do you put a 4,000 year gap between the millennium and new heaven new earth?

grafted branch said:

Depending on your view, the departure of the ordinances may or may not happen simultaneously between God and humans. Whenever new Jerusalem is realized, that is whenever in time you think this happens, that’s when both God and humans have no need of the sun or moon to shine on them.

To clarify I do think the ordinances were before God and He was recognizing a day as one evening to the next evening. At some point the ordinances depart, I’m trying to find out how you can have the ordinances before God while at the same time God doesn’t use those ordinances.

Click to expand...

Can't some of you read what the text plainly says, then interpret things accordingly, where one isn't then contradicting what God said in the OT, thus making Him out to be a liar?

This is what the text in Revelation 21 says.


Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

This city is not meaning the entire planet. Until some of you comprehend that, thus agree it's not meaning the entire planet, the same way the garden of Eden was not meaning the entire planet, you're going to misinterpret passages in the OT in the meantime, such as Jeremiah 31:35-40 and Jeremiah 33:20-26. Which is not a good thing since your misinterpretation of Revelation 21:23 makes God out to be a liar per Jeremiah 31:35-40 and Jeremiah 33:20-26.

The idea is to not make God out to be a liar per one's interpretations. Revelation 21:23 plainly, clearly, undeniably, says that it is only the city that had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it. It does not one single time say that it is the entire planet earth that had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it. It says that of the city only.

The city is the paradise of God, the same way the garden of Eden was the paradise of God. Are some of you going to argue that the garden of Eden was meaning the entire planet? Probably not. How then can one argue that the paradise of God(Revelation 2:7), obviously meaning this city in question, that it is meaning the entire planet when one wouldn't argue that in regards to the paradise of God, the garden of Eden?

Getting back to the book of Jeremiah. For example, Jeremiah 33:22. In that verse God does not say if the host of heaven can be numbered, if the sand of the sea can be measured. He clearly, plainly, says that they can't, period, nothing to debate. As if it makes good sense that the sand of the sea can't be measured, which is but a mere spec in comparison to heaven above. But in Jeremiah 31, verse 37, heaven above can actually be measured when even the sand of the sea can't be measured. Come on now, you're an intelligent person. Surely you have to know that it is not reasonable that the sand of the sea can't be measured but heaven above can be measured.

Keeping in mind as well, one can't interpret Jeremiah 31:37 one way then interpret Jeremiah 31:36 an entirely different way. IOW, if per verse 37 heaven above can't be measured, then per verses 36, neither can these ordinances depart from Him ever, as in never.

DavidPT said:

This city is not meaning the entire planet. Until some of you comprehend that, thus agree it's not meaning the entire planet, the same way the garden of Eden was not meaning the entire planet, you're going to misinterpret passages in the OT in the meantime, such as Jeremiah 31:35-40 and Jeremiah 33:20-26. Which is not a good thing since your misinterpretation of Revelation 21:23 makes God out to be a liar per Jeremiah 31:35-40 and Jeremiah 33:20-26.

Click to expand...

Isaiah 60:20 says the sun shall no more go down; neither shall the moon withdraw itself. That is the sun and moon themselves not abiding by the ordinances in Genesis.

Besides that Revelation 21:22 says the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it (new Jerusalem). Regardless of whether the sun and moon are shining differently between the entire planet and new Jerusalem the ordinances are not before God, who is in new Jerusalem.

DavidPT said:

Keeping in mind as well, one can't interpret Jeremiah 31:37 one way then interpret Jeremiah 31:36 an entirely different way. IOW, if per verse 37 heaven above can't be measured, then per verses 36, neither can these ordinances depart from Him ever, as in never.

Click to expand...

Heaven above was measured in Revelation 21:15-16 it’s 12,000 furlongs and it’s four square. The foundation of the earth was searched out in Revelation 13:8 the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This all has to do with the new covenant which is what Jeremiah 31 is talking about.