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Messianic Judaism?

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Qnts2

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ContraMundum said:
.....which has nothing to do with the proper understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints.
Click to expand...

Ok, since the RCC relates communion with the saints with asking for favors, prayer from the dead saints, I would say that is a proper understanding of what the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints is. At least for the RCC.

So, what do you consider the proper understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints to be?
 
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pat34lee

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If I take him correctly, communing with spirits is looking for them to talk back to you. Communing with the saints is just asking them to talk to Yeshua or YHWH for you. It is a fine distinction.
 
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visionary

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If you think the dead are not dead, but do hear and think and such, then you should be able to commune with them... is their thinking.. it probably came from Egyptian theology...

Isaiah 19:3
The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists.
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King David didn't think that way..
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
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Over and over again, scripture has indicated a faith in the resurrection as the appointed time to live again.. I think it all goes back to the first lie
Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
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And the controversy continue.. If the serpent is right that when you die you really do have a life after death and you do not have to wait until the promised resurrection to experience it.. who are we believing... ?? Then my question to you is... why are all the Kings of Israel sleeping with their fathers? ANd Yeshua told everyone that Lazarus was asleep and for clarification stated Lazarus was dead. Of all people Yeshua should know and we should believe that He is accurately describing the condition of the dead....
John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. ...14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
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after all He did not holler at Lazarus to come down..but to come forth..
 
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Gxg (G²)

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ContraMundum said:
.....which has nothing to do with the proper understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints.
Click to expand...
A lot of times, the reason why people have an issue with the concept of Communion of the Saints is due to the idea they may have that says the dead are solely asleep and unaware of anything going on. But the saints are very much alive/aware of what happens in the earth below...
Revelation 6:9-11
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Revelation 8
3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

​
G
The issue of men simply sleeping when they died and being unaware of life is a rather recent development in theology - if aware of the concept of soul sleep (although it's often debated as to its validity). It is also connected to the concept of Annihilationism, which in many ways has alot of Biblical merit when considering aspects of it that were accepted by the early church---some of them having a bit of a middle ground approach in saying that being annihilated would occur after an extensive time of punishment in the life to come. If one's for the thought that immortality is for God alone, the concept makes alot of sense--and others such as Greg Boyd have done some good work on the issue (seen here and here /here /here).



For others:
__________________

As said elsewhere, if it was solely an issue of sleep that happened with the saints, then there'd be no issue. Scripture, however, never says that Yeshua only slept - just as it also never says that those who die are only sleeping. More was already shared in-depth on the issue elsewhere, as seen here:

.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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One excellent resource I enjoyed on the issue is from Bob Fishman, who is a Jewish man who is now Catholic, and explains the Jewish Roots of our Faith.

 
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Qnts2

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visionary said:
If scripture says do not consult mediums, is one who is communing with the saints a medium?
Click to expand...

One who talks to or communes with the dead would be called a Necromancer or inquiring/speaking with the dead.

Lev. 19:31 Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Isaiah 8:19
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

Deut 18:9-12
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
 
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visionary

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ContraMundum said:
.....which has nothing to do with the proper understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints.
Click to expand...
It has everything to do with talking to the dead... the only way you believe it is ok, is if you believe that the dead are not really dead.. but are saints in heaven... which spiritualizes heavenly beings...

Psalms 6:5 For there is no mention of Thee in death; In Sheol who will give Thee thanks?

Ps. 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Click to expand...
 
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ContraMundum said:
.=understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints.
Click to expand...
Christ lived out the concept well when it came to noting what he did with Elijah and Moses during his transfiguration - for they had long passed and anyone claiming Moses was not "dead" even when the text said Moses passed would not be honest with the context. It's seeking things out without the Lord's permission that makes the difference - and there've been cases where the saints came back with visions for the people of God.

On the issue of Moses and Elijah, Matthew 17:2-4 and Mark 9:3-10 / Luke 9:29-34 come to my mind when Elijah and Moses appeared before Jesus.


Matthew 17:2-4 / Matthew 17

The Transfiguration

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.


4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”


Luke 9:28-39/Luke 9:32-34 Luke 9



The Transfiguration

28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.) 34 While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” 36 When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.

​

​

That's clearly an issue of old spirits being brought forth....and its interesting to see how Jesus was actively talking with Moses and Elijah rather than dismissing them in the belief that they were dead/should not have been interacted with. It was already enough of a shock for the disciples when they had fallen asleep and had awoken to seeing Jesus talking with two deceased men....and it must have been interesting for them to be told to keep the matter to themselves once it was done. If they had told others of the matter, what would the consequences have been? Would the people trip over Jesus and say that he was talking to ghosts or seeking to speak to the UNDead actively? Who knows....but what I do think is clear is that it doesn't seem to be the case that the Lord didn't allow any kind of interaction with the deceased in all situations.


There was an obvious reality that when someone goes to be with the Lord, phsycially they are dead. The morgue says that they're deceased...and their body is lifeless while their spirit lives on. Even Moses, though known to be with the Lord, is still DEAD---and the phrase "dead soul" is something that indicates a person whose body has died while their spirit lives on. That's what ghosts/spirits of the departed are---and that's essentially what Moses was, as Moses was known to have DIED..
Deuteronomy 34:5
And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.

Joshua 1:1-3

1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, the LORD said to Joshua son of Nun, Moses’ aide: 2 “Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to them—to the Israelites. 3

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Jude 1:8-10

​
The same dynamic of dying would also apply to Elijah...though its a bit more difficult for many since Elijah is known to have been taken up into Heaven in a fiery chariot (2Kings 2:11 ). However, Elijah’s chariot ride in chapter two comes between the reigns of two kings of Israel. 2Kings 3:1 says that Jehoram, son of Ahab reigned in Ahaziah’s stead...and Ahaziah died of a disease not leaving a son, so his brother, Jehoram became the King of Israel (cp. 2Kings 1:15-18). The beginning of Jehoram’s 12 year reign coincided with the eighteenth year of the reign of Jehosaphat, king of Judah. This is important, because the kings of Judah and Israel were allies. Before going to war with Moab they consulted the prophets, but Judah and Israel were not united in their faiths. Only Judah worshiped the Lord. Therefore, Jehosaphat desired a word from a prophet of the LORD before going to war, and in this case we are told the great prophet was Elisha (2Kings 3:11). Therefore, the time of this Scripture is definitely after Elijah ascended to heaven in a fiery chariot (2Kings 2:11). For many, the view is that it was either the case that Elijah came to give a word to the King AFTER he had died----verifying the concept of the departed giving messages at God's approval alone---or Elijah never went to Heaven before having to actually die first. For a good review on the issue, one can go online/look up the article entitled Is it True Elijah Went to Heaven? « Smoodock's Blogjavascript:void(0)

One can find more in 2 Chronicles 21:1..as Jehoram, the son of Jehosaphat, reigned in Jerusalem in the stead of his father. Jehosaphat was dead, but Elisha was the prophet of the Lord that Jehosaphat had consulted concerning the war with Moab. Thus, by this time in 2Chronicles 21, Elijah had already taken his chariot ride into the heavens which had to have occurred before Jehosaphat’s death.

Additionally, Jehoram the son of Ahab referred to in 2Kings 3:1 with whom Jehosaphat was allied is not the same Jehoram mentioned here in 2Chronicles 21:1. This Jehoram was king of Judah and son of Jehosaphat. He did not walk in the ways of his father but in the ways of the kings of Israel, for he had married Ahab’s daughter and led Judah astray (2Chronicles 21:4-6).

When considering that context, it is interesting to note how 2Chronicles 21:12 shows that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah, rebuking him for walking in the way of the kings of Israel.
When realizing that Elijah’s chariot ride in II Kings 2 took place while Jehosaphat was still alive, one must wonder how could he write a letter after Jehosaphat’s death, if he was in heaven where God is. One would be logical to conclude that Elijah was still alive/earthbound....and at least opens up the door for supposing that it isn't necessarily the case that Elijah himself never died at a later date. As a man, his ministry as God’s main prophet was about done except for this letter to the king of Judah, Elijah’s ministry ended with the fiery chariot ride up to the clouds and Elisha being the front man

Ultimately, For those trusting in the Lord, there's a bit of a duality...as they will not ultimately perish since they will be with Him. Jesus noted this when it came to the Sadducees not believing in the resurrection...and his saying that the Lord is the God of the Living ( Matthew 22:31-33 , Luke 20:37-39 , Mark 12:18-28 , etc). The OT saints had this hope as well (Psalm 17:14-15 , Psalm 16:9-11 , Acts 2:26-28 / Acts 2 , 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 , etc)
 
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visionary

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pat34lee said:
If I take him correctly, communing with spirits is looking for them to talk back to you. Communing with the saints is just asking them to talk to Yeshua or YHWH for you. It is a fine distinction.
Click to expand...
Now why would anyone not want to talk with Yeshua directly?
 
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ContraMundum said:
understanding of the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints.
Click to expand...
We're all connected in a spiritual race together in the Lord and can remember the struggles of others for our own encouragement.


Whenever we pray, there are myriads of others praying with us; we join our prayer and worship of God with all those - wherever they may be.

.
It's kind of trippy to consider the ways that prayers impact into the future and the past simultaneously...for things that were shared in prayer by someone in the Middle Ages could be felt as far as centuries later in our time, the Lord honoring that prayer. And what makes it interesting is that eternity has no sense of time---so a prayer that was prayed centuries would still reach us in our times as if it was prayed yesterday. Those who died in the Byzantine Empire would wind up in eternity upon their deaths---and run right into those who may've died in the 60/70s, with it being the case that it'd feel as if no long amounts of time had passed...for eternity connects all points. We see this common theme in scripture repeatedly when the Lord would answer the prayers of others from centuries earlier with those in the present times often being unaware of where the Lord was honoring past actions....or responding in light of what future generations would need.

As another pointed out:
We experience time and space through our bodies.
We have no idea (or ability to imagine) how these might or even can be experienced without one's body. Inasmuch as eternity is summarized as "now".

Sometimes I have wondered about this, specifically as it relates to prayer, or more accurately my own failure to pray "in time" for a need I have been told about. But then, I also know that in God, time is a different matter, and hope that His knowledge will apply a prayer in my failed timing anyway

I admit, to even think of joining one's heart in intent with so many divided by time is ... breathtaking ..


it is the body of Christ that is resurrected, not individuals. It is also notable that the promise of the coming of Holy Spirit is fulfilled after the command to gather is observed.

This is clearly a focus ... somehow, speaking of the Saints in the EO reminds me of my family reunions, when relatives (separated by distance or time) were discussed of a piece - in this way, even those who could not attend were there. As a child, I couldn't keep track of the degrees of cousins and complex relations being discussed; but I did know what people who were part of the family, even if I'd not met or couldn't remember them, had been doing and their cares.

The Apostles, the Saints, these are our extended family.
And when I say "our", I mean the extended family of all Christians.

And I can only hope their lives and struggles might bless each of us; the life in Christ is truly rich !



It is indeed the common inheritance of all in Christ.
​
Truly, all points in time/all of GOD'S people are connected in prayer

It makes sense to believe the church is to be a "city set on a hill", that is, visible and collective, not just individual. Looking at religion as mainly individual is very modern, western and not really the way the Judeo-Christian religion saw itself before the later Reformation. Brother Ravi Zacharias noted similar dynamics in a book he did entitled "Walking from East to West: God in the Shadows"...as he discussed how the mindset of those in the East is very collective whereas the Western mindset is indeed more individualistic---and in the Eastern context where scriptures were written, one would naturally have not seen the individuals as seperate from the legacy of those who went before them. Ravi Zacharias, who is originally from India, says that we in the West sometimes miss the Eastern undercurrent of the biblical narratives. For instance, he writes, “Most people I have met who have grown up in a Western culture don’t seem to be nearly as aware of their ancestry as those from the East.” This connection to ancestry “is a tendency that has both a good and bad side, for in the East history and ancestry never die.” Family ties are of utmost importance for many cultures. And in many ways, as we in the West lack familiarity with things such as sovereignty, monarchy, and lordship.... so also we’ve long lost the idea of familial hierarchy. Yet each of these things come in to play when we talk of Jesus being the Son of God and the Mission He had. IMHO, this is why it is important to view the title “Son of God” in its Eastern, Jewish, biblical context....for as Matthew 1 and Luke 3:23-37 discuss, the subject of understanding one's past/ancestry was key in understanding the very nature of what the Messiah was going to be. There's a reason the scriptures place so much high importance on geneologies when it comes to showing who a person is fully.

The passage of Hebrews 11-12 comes immediately mind, especially when the author encourages the people to not give up on their faith in light of the fact that they were "surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses."...numerous others who went before them who had to experience the same. It wasn't to singular individuals alone that the author of Hebrews was talking to---and the people wouldn't have understood what it meant to be a believer apart from seeing the extensive ways in which people walked out their faiths...many of them seperated by centuries of time, unaware of others coming after them....

And many of them having a myriad of flaws, yet simultaneously seeing the Lord use them..

Personally, as it concerns mindsets within Christendom that seem to be more so focused upon the collective unit as opposed to individual, I'd say that the ones naturally leaning toward it more so than others would be those within Liturgical circles--specially, groups within the world of Eastern Christianity and Eastern Orthodoxy since I've often seen them reference the "Hall of Faith" dynamic multiple times when it comes to seeing oneself as a part of a whole rather than the sole focus...and the collective mindset is one of the reasons they seem to be so focused upon things like iconagraphy/artwork showing the saints in remembrance of them or Biblical characters.

Those from the East seem to be very deeply connected with the past....

We're all connected in a spiritual race together in the Lord and can remember the struggles of others for our own encouragement - drawing on their own examples for wisdom and edification.

There are, of course, bad ways to go about doing things when it comes to the deceased. One example would be with Saul and the witch of Endor in I Samuel 28, as he sought council in an illegitimate way. The Lord had already forbidden people in Israel to seek out contact with those who contact the dead ( Deuteronomy 18:10-12 , Isaiah 8:18-20 , etc ). Saul was seeking guidance...and as it turns out, the prophet Samuel appeared to him. In Samuel's case, I think he was called up by a 'special dispensation' of the Lord to deliver the message to Sha'ul the king. The witch of endor seemed to be very much surprised when she saw that it was truly a spirit of the deceased rather than familar spirits she was used to.....for she didn't expect to see someone who was coming in the Power of God/beyond her control.

With the witch, it may be the case that she often relied upon demons rather than the actual spirits of the deceased--and in that sense, she may've been a sham if claiming that she could talk to the dead. That in no way would mean that all witches were in the same category, just as it'd be the case that not all getting information from some demonic sources are to indications that all sources of information are demonically rooted. It may've been the case that calling up spirits of the dead was done by others...and the practices of ancient Israel do seem to indicate that it was a common practice.


Michael Heiser, one of the best scholars around on Ancient Israelite culture, had some very dynamic things to say. Regarding what he noted, I was glad for the book references he gave out--as they've been a blessing. The two excellent scholarly books on this subject matter I'm referring to are the following:

And



Outside of that, if interested, here’s another article to file under contextualizing the Bible with respect to its literary conventions. You've probably heard Christian apologists say something like “the New Testament resurrection stories are like nothing in the ancient world,” a statement usually made to convince us that the resurrection was a bodily one. However, though I believe the resurrection was a bodily resurrection, statements like these on the part of well meaning pastors or apologists aren’t really informed. The following are two recent articles on how Mark and Luke use (or violate) literary conventions known throughout the Greco-Roman world for telling ghost stories when they write about Jesus (pre- or post-resurrection).

 
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visionary

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Who says it was Samuel? No wonder the Lord closed the door on this avenue, because it open Pandora's box of lies. Just as it is today, mediums call on the dead to appear and talk to the living.
 
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My mother was one that believed in speaking with such spirits--perhaps not saints. She called it channeling. Either way, she did not focus her life on seeking Adonai or his ways. I did get to know what she was into, although I knew within myself that she was on a bad road.
The sadness is, that instead of focusing her energy there, she could have spent her time seeking the most high and his spirit. To me, this is mis-spent time and energy.
As far as what I see in scripture. I have an advocate with Adonai and my prayers are indeed heard by Adonai. I need no other.
I can only think that one must doubt that Adonai will hear one';s prayers to even consider needing "outside influence". It is indeed my position that one's prayers are enough on their own validity.
I used to read many books on the eloquence of prayers and how to pray. I figured since I wasn't getting answers, that perhaps it was that I was not wording them correctly. Adonai let me know to throw the book away. He just wanted my own prayers from me to him. Somehow, many do not have the faith that Adonai hears their prayer. He does. Mediumship is an affront to the faith that prayer is heard.
Temptinfates
 
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visionary said:
Who says it was Samuel?.
Click to expand...
Jews /Hebrews- as has been consistently noted since the incident. History is history, whether one likes it or not.

No wonder the Lord closed the door on this avenue, because it open Pandora's box of lies.
Click to expand...
God closed it seeing that Samuel said to Saul exactlty what he did due to the Lord proclaiming Judgement on Saul because of his actions/sins against the Lord throughout his life and allowing for Saul to hear it again - as he was seeking a different answer than what he had already been told and hoping the Lord would say differently...but the prophet Samuel noted exactly what the Lord wanted.

And the same thing goes for Moses and Elijah (Moses who died centuries before and Elijah who was taken up) when they were talking to Christ.

With Samuel, From a literary perspective, the word ghost is helpful, so long as we do not picture someone in a white sheet moaning “boo.” There are many ghosts in world literature, such as the ghost of Hamlet’s father who tells the young prince something he already suspected was true. A ghost is basically an echo of the past speaking in the present; it is a memory that takes shape in our consciousness. But ghosts rarely bring comfort. They haunt us with memories of wrongs unatoned, regrets, and the fear that the past has determined our future. This story brilliantly dramatizes Saul being haunted by his own past and his sense of hopelessness.

And as I Samuel 28 indicates, it was possible to talk with someone from the deceased if....and ONLY if...the Lord allowed it to occur. For Samuel, he was in good relation to the Lord/resting (i.e. "sleeping")...but was distrubed from his temporary state of rest. There has to be a conscious state of some sort even as "sleep" was occurring for the dead if the scriptures are to be consistent. The same can be said of Jesus. For some use Ephesians 4:7-10 to teach that Jesus went to hell or to Hades to release the prisoners held there and take them to heaven or into God’s presence. The idea is that before His death, all Old Testament believers were in Abraham’s bosom—the paradise part of Hades. Hades or Sheol was seen as the place of the dead with three areas or compartments: (1) the abyss or tartarus, the place of confinement for those demons who sinned in the days of Noah; (2) torments, the place of suffering for all unbelievers until the time of the resurrection of the unjust and the Great White Throne Judgment when they will be cast eternally into the lake of fire, and (3) a third place separated by a great gulf (see Luke 16), called Abraham’s Bosom, the place of blessing for believers. Because Christ had not yet died to pay the penalty for their sin, they were not yet able to go directly into the presence of God. After His death, however, the barrier was removed and He took them out of prison and into God’s presence.

A LOT of context often gets lost/avoided when it comes to the scriptures on the deceased - with many things making a world of difference. As Michael Heiser noted best:
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Deut 18:11 – (more literally / my translation): “or a spellbinder, or one who asks a spirit (ʾob) who has knowledge (yiddeoni), or one who inquires of the dead (metim)”
​

​
Deuteronomy 18 is a well-known passage that deals with certain forbidden divination practices. Notice here that there is an apparent difference between asking a spirit (ʾob) for information and inquiring of the dead (metim). That is, the spirits being contacted and the dead being solicited seem to be different groups. The spirits have certain knowledge of the “other side” that human mediums would seek to tap into. We are not given this detail about the dead, which would be consistent with the passages below in Ecclesiastes. I don’t see anything in this passage that mars my hypothesis.

Deut. 26:14 (ESV): ”I have not eaten of the tithe while I was mourning, or removed any of it while I was unclean, or offered any of it to the dead (metim). I have obeyed the voice of the Lord my God. I have done according to all that you have commanded me.”
​

​





This passage is consistent with my hypothesis. It would be incorrect to see “the dead” here as non-human spirits or demons, since there is a good deal of archaeological evidence for a “cult” of the dead in biblical Israel. There are traces of this in the Old Testament. We may get to that in detail, but for now I’ll only say that what scholars mean by “cult” of the dead is that Israelites, like basically all people, did certain things to honor or “service” the dead and maintain some sort of connection to them. Before we dismiss this, we ought to admit that we do the same thing, even in our scientific age. For example, we take flowers to the grave of loved ones, perhaps even on specific days. Why? Perhaps we imagine the deceased would appreciate the gesture, or perhaps we think it scandalous if a grave goes unattended (it’s disrespectful to the deceased). Do the dead really appreciate flowers? Do they keep track of how they are respected once they’re dead? Will they get upset with us if we bring the wrong thing or don’t bring anything at all? I think you get the picture. Israelites would leave food and wine at graves, at times even pouring or dumping the items into a grave through a hole designed for such purpose. But enough…I don’t want to get sidetracked. My point is that the metim in this verse are still the human dead. Incidentally, two excellent scholarly books on this subject matter are: Israel’s Beneficent Dead: Ancestor Cult and Necromancy in Ancient Israelite Religion and Tradition and Judahite Burial Practices and Beliefs About the Dead (Jsots Series No 123).
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For anyone who is willing to address the issue, some resources that were mentioned earlier:






Very good and intriguing information on the issue by Biblical Scholar Michael Heiser regarding what the scriptures say on the subject of the departed.
 
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visionary

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The Communion of Spirits is considered to be the key principle of Spiritualism. We have now proved, consistently and continuously, for a period of over one hundred years, that those who die in this material world continue their life without break or interruption in another world, another dimension, which intermingles with our own. Not only do they return to communicate with us, and so prove their survival, but they also, for a period, spend a considerable part of their time helping and guiding us in our earthly problems. We too are essentially spirit, and that vital part of us, which we call the subconscious, is sensitive to spirit influence. Many of us, therefore, although not conscious of the influence of spirit, are nevertheless spirit guided. The spirit inspired mental impressions received by the subconscious will filter through to the conscious level and influence, in varying degrees, the thoughts and actions of the recipients.

Communion of Spirits & the Ministry of Angels
 
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pat34lee said:
If I take him correctly, communing with spirits is looking for them to talk back to you. Communing with the saints is just asking them to talk to Yeshua or YHWH for you. It is a fine distinction.
Click to expand...
A lot of the distinctions are hard to understand when not considering that even having Christ intercedding for us/sustaining the universe (Hebrews 1:3-5 and Romans 8:34 ) and us being able to go to Him, He has also made channels for us to connect with Him on....and that is something that is very difficult for folks to understand if/when they say "I only need to go to Yeshua!!"

Some may take issue with that...but in seeing the text more fully, I'm reminded of the many other instances where the Lord actually showed HOW his people were to go to ONE another for healing/confession and forgiveness rather than the modern day mindset that "I just need to go to God...and THAT'S IT!!!!" Matthew 9 comes to mind, in regards to
how Jesus proved that the paralysis was a result of sin, and the power to forgive and the power to heal were inherently linked.

Also, as scripture says elsewhere:

James 5:14
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective
​

Striking to see that healing of sins didn't come when one simply went to the Lord---but rather, when one went through the ordained means He set up for the ministering of healing/forgivness to occur (elders).

Jesus and Paul did not merely speak about forgiving those who sin against us...be it believers or not. Jesus told His OWN apostles that if they didn't forgive anyone of their sins, Christ would honor that/not forgive them as well.

John 20:21-23
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N
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
​
For a good study on the issue, one can investigate the Hebrew Heritage society article they did here. But the power of binding and loosing, which means forbidding and allowing, was granted to Peter (Mt 16:19) and to the Christian community (Mt 18:18; Jn 20:23). It clearly implies the possession of the power to forgive sins. In the case of Peter's power it was exercised when he used the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Mt 16:19). This consisted in the proclamation of the gospel and especially of the conditions upon which men might enter into relationship with God (Acts 2:38; 10:34 ff). It was not limited to Peter only, but was shared by the other apostles (Mt 16:19; Matthew 18:18).

In Josephus (Wars of the Jews 1:5:2) he writes: "The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra the Pharisees, "became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit who they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind." The various schools had the power to bind and to loose;" that is the power to forbid and to permit. (Talmud: Ta'anit 12a). This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age or in the Sanhedrin, received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, ix; Talmud: Makkot 23b).

In this sense Yahshua, when appointing His disciples to be His successors, used the familiar formula (Matthew 16:19 and Matthew 18:18). By these words He virtually invested them with the same authority as that which He found belonging to the scribes and Pharisees who "bind heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but will not move them with one of their fingers," that is, "loose them," as they have the power to do (Matthew 23:2-4)

This is what seems to be clear in the text of scripture when seeing 2 Corinthians 2:1-8 where Paul noted the man who sinned greatly was to now be forgiven after casting judgement on him earlier. ..just as he'd done with others whom he gave over to Satan to be disciplined ( 1 Corinthians 5:2-4 , 1 Timothy 1:19-20, etc).

Annanias and Sapharia in Acts 5 also comes to mind when they sinned agains the Lord and the apostles were used as instruments of judgment upon them.

But to put it a different way, if ANY of the apostles had said to their congregations "We forgive you, in the authority Christ has given us to forgive"...would we have any issue with them as much as others would perhaps have issue with others going to others/asking them to pray for one another or going to a priest for confession? The example of the apostles is striking considering that they themselves cast JUDGEMENT upon other believers, proclaimed them excommunicated from the church and turned others over to Satan...

In the example of Paul:
2 Corinthians 2

4 For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.
Forgiveness for the Offender

5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
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Both the identity of this individual and the details of his actions are unknown...though earlier critics normally identified him with the "incestuous" man of I Corinthians 5, whereas most moder interpreters see him as either another member of the Corinthian church or someone from outside of Corinth. Paul wrote to the people on the subject of reconcilliation...and he noted how he wanted them to be obedient ( and one can see more in II Corinthians 10:6). For Paul had apostolic authority (II Corinthians 10:8 and II Corinthians 13:10)...

Some of this reminds me of what often happens in differing liturgical circles that still practice things along the lines of confession of sins to priests.

The Orthodox CHurch is well known for doing this frequently--and one can go here for more detail. The Oriental Orthodox churches are another excellent example to study, IMHO, when it comes to the subject of confessing to others. There was another discussion I sought to begin elsewhere on the issue of the Ethopian Orthodox Church (as seen here) since the Ethopian Orthodox Church, which bears STRIKING resemblance to Judaism on a host of levels, incorporates this when it comes to the ways others go to the priests/confessing their sins......and for more, one can go here. In their words, as they said:[/COLOR]
The Kind of sin that can be forgiven
(1) The Bible teaches us that every sin can be forgiven however grave it may be, provided that the sinner should return to God in repentance. “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson they shall be as wool.” (Is 1: 18)



(2) It teaches also that God is ready to pardon and accept everyone. “Him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6: 37) “God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4) David who committed two grave sins, was pardoned. Peter, who denied the Lord three times, and in a very shameful way, was pardoned. The woman who was taken in adultery was pardoned (John 8:11) Christ asked for pardon even to those who committed the greatest crime by crucifying Him.


(3) In Matt. 12:31 we find that “the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men” This means that those who reject and oppose the work of the Holy Ghost, and refuse to accept God’s salvation will not be pardoned.



VI. Ecclesiastical Discipline
In some cases the priest finds it necessary to inflict some kind of discipline on the sinner when he commits a great sin, e.g. he can rebuke him, ask him to fast for some days, pass a longer time in daily prayer, tell him to give some money to the poor, prevent him from receiving the Holy Communion for some time, or impose some other kind of discipline.



(1) This right was given to the ministers by Christ Himself. He gave them the right not only to loose, but also to bind (Matt. 16:19); not only to remit the sins, but also to retain them (John 20:23)



(2) The Apostles themselves used it. “Deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be save in the day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 5:5) See also 2 Cor. 2: 6,7 and 1 tim 5:20

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ContraMundum said:
Most Messianics wouldn't have a clue what that means. As I understand the movement, deeper theological matters such as this, election, pneumatology, ecclesiology, polity and justification are completely undeveloped and viturally ignored.
Click to expand...

"Communion of Saints", Jewish style...

Since this seems to have become such a hot topic, I found it quite serendipitous that this article, Inspiring Change, came to my inbox this morning. Perhaps some will find in it some new ideas to consider.
 
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Asking or participation of live people is not the same as asking dead to influence one's prayers. Prayers of live people requires FAITH. The dead cannot produce Faith. The dead if it be damned or saints SEE and KNOW the world they have moved on with. It is better to not see. Without Faith it is impossible to please Adonai. On earth, it requires faith. Calling on a saint that sees the heavenly realm requires no faith on the part of the saint. It is the living that must have faith.
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