Ghosts, God and Supernatural: How many kinds of spirits existed in the OT/NT Judaism?

[Gxg (G²)]

Shalom..




Been very busy of late, as I've been getting things together for my Master's Program and also involved heavily on a Mission Trip to Jamaica. Always will love the country as well as its people for how beautiful they are...and for how the Lord has truly been working amongst them. But on this trip, something began coming to my mind that I have been processing when it comes to Judaism.

Within Jamaica (as well as in other places in the West Indies such as Hati)one of the prominent belief systems is known as Voodoo....and that worldview believes that one prospers through life based on how well they are able to do with things such as interacting with the spirit world (i.e. "the other side"). This world could include spirits that are demonic, whereas it could also include spirits that are merely the deceased that've passed on. The focus of Voodoo today is to serve others and influence the outcome of life events through the connection with nature, spirits, and ancestors. True rituals are held "behind closed doors" as a showy ritual would be considered disrespectful to the spirits. For anyone who has seen the film known as "Princess and the Frog", there's a famous scene in the movie where the villain discusses the world of voodoo in-depth in his theme song:

Princess and the Frog - "Friends on the Other Side" ​

Of course, believers are not to be involved in such things....but it did occur to me how odd it is whenever people say things such as "None of those methods are real...and there's no real Spirits outside of the HOLY Spirit."

To me, it seemed as if missionaries in certain countries would often act as if the people were just stupid for even daring to believe that the dead often remain among the living in a ghostly form……and the assumed thought would be that its more proper to believe that the souls of the dead go IMMEDIATELY to be with the Lord rather than drifting around for a time----with no memory of their pasts or attempts made to interact with others.

Some think that the concept of ghosts belongs strictly within the realm of fantasy cartoons like "Casper"​

When I began to read/study scripture, the more I realized that there has to be a precedent for why people in Voodoo (or religions based on ancestor worship/communicating with the dead) turn to the things they go to---and often have ACCURATE results (to a point). There’s a reason people would choose to go to spiritual sources of information and often feel as if the information they receive from spirits is legitimate….things that no one else knows about (i.e family secrets, pains, struggles, etc). And studying the issue, it amazed me to see how prevalent it was within the Word /Judaism as well.


What happens to the breath when it leaves the body (since it is the animating principle)? This question troubled the ancients, and had different opinions as we see here:

Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit [breath] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [breath] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
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One theory held that it returned to God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [breath] shall return unto God who gave it.
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For those who thought the breath was still alive and returned to God, they reasoned that one might see the disembodied breath on its way to God. This temporary traveling breath was a “ghost” (“ghost” was the Anglo word for “breath”). In example, imagine a married couple named Joe and Jan Jackson…..and consider how they may’ve been saving funds in cash for their family. If Joe died and didn’t tell his wife where he hid the money, one might have someone who could allegedly contact “family breaths” to ask them for the burial spot…

The scriptures often noted mention of the “spirits of the dead” (Proverbs 2:17-19 ) where others often sought to contact the dead and the Lord didn’t allow it (Deuteronomy 18:10-12 , Leviticus 19:27-29 )---confirming that it could be done if one was determined to do it ( Isaiah 8:19; Isaiah 14:8-10, Isaiah 19:2-4 , Isaiah 26:14; Isaiah 26:19 ). God had strictly forbidden the Israelites to have anything to do with Diviniation, sorcery, witchcraft, mediums, spiritist or anyone who consults the dead…..and part of the reasons for this may’ve been that it was not proper since talking to the dead was akin to taking “back-doors” or illegal access points that were dangerous….and not apart of the Lord’s desire for others getting information through Him/what He allows. Its perhaps the case that he may’ve wanted His will revealed only through His own approved channels: the Bible, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit…as only those things would be trustworthy. For another reason, as one said best:

Why would God allow the human dead to walk the earth? …. I think this merely reflects what most people across the ages have believed — that the human dead live on in an afterlife and interact with the living. That’s pretty much a ubiquitous belief. Ghosts are a logical part of a belief in an unseen world of the disembodied, and in an afterlife (the afterlife being conceptually joined to the idea of an unseen world of disembodied beings). If God has authority in that unseen world, if he wants to permit “crossing over” he can (and I believe does). But the Bible (and other ancient literature) tells us that the unseen world is also home to malevolent spirits who can apparently take human form and interact with humans (e.g., human speech), so one cannot really know what one is dealing with. Initiating contact with this world is forbidden in the Bible, which suggests that it can be done, but ought not to be (it isn’t human turf and cannot be parsed or controlled by humans).
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Practictioners of the occult have Satan and demons as the source of their information……but many times, those seeking information may actually have real DEAD people to talk to for information.

We also see clearly in scripture where one was in contact with the spirits of the dead, such as what occurred with Saul in 1 Samuel 28:1-24. For when the Lord would no longer talk to Saul, he sought out a witch to bring up the Spirit of Samuel the prophet….and its interesting to consider how Samuel noted “WHY have you disturbed me by bringing me up. It may not be the case that people when they die simply go about in the prescence of the Lord, being unable to come back and talk if they wish to do so……or being unable to interact with others/give messages.

For more info, one can go here to the articles entitled "The Naked Bible » Discerning the Dead, Part 2" and here , as well as an article they made entitled "Jesus as Ghost and Phantom." As said there :

In Matt. 14:26 the disciples react in fear when they see Jesus walking on the water. They scream out, “It’s a ghost!” The Greek word for “ghost” here is phantasma. Any Greek-English dictionary (lexicon) or Strong’s number search will reveal to you that this isn’t the Greek word for “demon” in the New Testament. The disciples had a category for “disembodied spirit of a dead person” (a ghost). They didn’t just think in demonic terms…..
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There are actually a number of terms in the Hebrew OT for “inhabitants of the spiritual realm / the place where you go when you die.” They include:

• ob – a spirit that could be contacted by a medium, or a possessed medium.
• yiddeoni – a spirit that has knowledge humans do not.
• metim – spirit of the dead
• ittim – ghosts
• elohim – gods (bet this one surprised you)
• rephaim – spirit of a dead giant-warrior or “gibbor”(another surprise I’ll bet)
• shedim – demons

A lot of the scholarly literature suggests that a clear distinction can’t be made between obot (plural of ob) and metim. I think that the former refers to non-human spirits (essentially demons, and so the word is a synonym of shedim) and the latter are the disembodied spirits of human dead (i.e., ghosts). If this distinction can be clearly made-that there are non-human spirits and ghosts, and those are separate categories-we’ll have a good bit of data to begin thinking about a biblical view of ghosts……
The term “the dead” refers to those things that can and do die (they are inherently mortal, having determinate lifespans, and must do certain things [like eat and breathe] to keep existing). The most notable example, of course, is human beings, and so metim most often refers to human beings. The metim, then, are not the spirits (‘ob / ‘obot) that can be conjured. The metim do have some sort of disembodied existence and can be contacted (hence the prohibition), but don’t seem to be reliable sources of information. This would mean that the ‘ob / ‘obot would be non-human spirits.

Deut 18:11 – (more literally / my translation): “or a spellbinder, or one who asks a spirit (ʾob) who has knowledge (yiddeoni), or one who inquires of the dead (metim)”
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Deuteronomy 18 is a well-known passage that deals with certain forbidden divination practices. Notice here that there is an apparent difference between asking a spirit (ʾob) for information and inquiring of the dead (metim). That is, the spirits being contacted and the dead being solicited seem to be different groups. The spirits have certain knowledge of the “other side” that human mediums would seek to tap into. We are not given this detail about the dead, which would be consistent with the passages below in Ecclesiastes. I don’t see anything in this passage that mars my hypothesis.

Deut. 26:14 (ESV): ”I have not eaten of the tithe while I was mourning, or removed any of it while I was unclean, or offered any of it to the dead (metim). I have obeyed the voice of the Lord my God. I have done according to all that you have commanded me.”
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This passage is consistent with my hypothesis. It would be incorrect to see “the dead” here as non-human spirits or demons, since there is a good deal of archaeological evidence for a “cult” of the dead in biblical Israel. There are traces of this in the Old Testament. We may get to that in detail, but for now I’ll only say that what scholars mean by “cult” of the dead is that Israelites, like basically all people, did certain things to honor or “service” the dead and maintain some sort of connection to them. Before we dismiss this, we ought to admit that we do the same thing, even in our scientific age. For example, we take flowers to the grave of loved ones, perhaps even on specific days. Why? Perhaps we imagine the deceased would appreciate the gesture, or perhaps we think it scandalous if a grave goes unattended (it’s disrespectful to the deceased). Do the dead really appreciate flowers? Do they keep track of how they are respected once they’re dead? Will they get upset with us if we bring the wrong thing or don’t bring anything at all? I think you get the picture. Israelites would leave food and wine at graves, at times even pouring or dumping the items into a grave through a hole designed for such purpose. But enough…I don’t want to get sidetracked. My point is that the metim in this verse are still the human dead. Incidentally, two excellent scholarly books on this subject matter are: Israel’s Beneficent Dead: Ancestor Cult and Necromancy in Ancient Israelite Religion and Tradition and Judahite Burial Practices and Beliefs About the Dead (Jsots Series No 123).
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Again, I pray that what I’m saying makes sense. Though I used to be for the mindset that GHOSTS were non-existent years ago, I don’t think I could honestly argue for such where I’m at currently. To be clear, I’m not saying that I’m a fan of things like TV’s “Ghost Hunters”….nor am I saying that I actively go in search of seeking information from the dead/think that its somehow a good thing to still try talking to Grandma at her grave rather than going to the Lord. What I’m saying is that I don’t think believers would truly be honest if trying to argue that Judaism doesn’t teach some form of belief in ghosts. For churches teaching “There is only one ghost, the Holy Ghost,and everything else is either an angel or a demon!!!!” , II can’t fully accept that. As brought up in the article, the instance of Matthew 14:26 (Mark 6:48-50 ) is something that stands out. For the disciples say, “It is a ghost”….and saying that if there really is no such thing as ghosts, Jesus would certainly know that, and he would have told the disciples that. Even later on, he had to still teach them that in his resurrected state he was not merely a “ghost” (Luke 24:38-40, Luke 24:36-38 )---and to me, it’d only make sense for him to make such commentary if perhaps there was truly a WIDE spread belief that ghosts of the deceased were truly real.

Of course, some of this also gets into other subjects such as wondering what may be of the fate of those who die...and whether its possible that they can be reached even AFTER death rather than a one time deal. But that may be for another day. If anyone wishes to touch that, however, by all means. There are many within Messianic Judaism that do hold to concepts such as purgatory/waiting places for the dead to still be redeemed...especially when considering things such as how 1 Pet. 3: 19 states that Christ preached unto the spirits in prison...and 1 Pet. 4: 6 gospel preached also to them that are dead.


If any Messianics here have thoughts, I'd love to hear sometime.
Shalom..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In regards to the OP, I think the author of "The Naked Bible" article that I gave an excerpt from (Michael Heiser ) had some very dynamic things to say. Regarding what he noted, I was glad for the book references he gave out--as they've been a blessing. For anyone who may've missed it, the two excellent scholarly books on this subject matter I'm referring to are the following:

• "Tradition and Judahite Burial Practices and Beliefs About the Dead (Jsots Series No 123)" ( )

And

• "Israel’s Beneficent Dead: Ancestor Cult and Necromancy in Ancient Israelite Religion" ( )

 

[visionary]

God declared.. don't talk to them.. I believe Him... It would be entering into a realm that we could easily be fooled.. as Satan and His gang can appear as some deseased individual with just enough information to captivate the mind....

Leviticus 20:6
“‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

God declared.. don't talk to them.. I believe Him... It would be entering into a realm that we could easily be fooled.. as Satan and His gang can appear as some deseased individual with just enough information to captivate the mind....

Leviticus 20:6
“‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

I agree with you that trying to actively go after such things can be beyond dangerous since anything can happen in the supernatural realm for the sake of deception.



However, Where I stand, I think God can grant a visit from a loved one's spirit in different forms, as a merciful gesture on His part. I do NOT believe we are to seek such things....but I don't see it in scripture where it was the case that there was NEVER an allowance for saints to talk to the spirits of the deceased. Shoot, Matthew 17:2-4 and Mark 9:3-10 / Luke 9:29-34 come to my mind when Elijah and Moses appeared before Jesus.

Matthew 17:2-4 / Matthew 17

The Transfiguration

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.


4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

Luke 9:28-39/Luke 9:32-34 Luke 9



The Transfiguration

28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33 As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.) 34 While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35 A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” 36 When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.

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That's clearly an issue of old spirits being brought forth....and its interesting to see how Jesus was actively talking with Moses and Elijah rather than dismissing them in the belief that they were dead/should not have been interacted with. It was already enough of a shock for the disciples when they had fallen asleep and had awoken to seeing Jesus talking with two deceased men....and it must have been interesting for them to be told to keep the matter to themselves once it was done. If they had told others of the matter, what would the consequences have been? Would the people trip over Jesus and say that he was talking to ghosts or seeking to speak to the UNDead actively? Who knows....but what I do think is clear is that it doesn't seem to be the case that the Lord didn't allow any kind of interaction with the deceased in all situations.

Outside of that, I'm reminded of the many stories of saints who were highly grieved by the loss of a loved one...and in having many questions about what happened, the Lord allowed them to see their family's state. I've seen it in the lives of some of my friends.

In example, one of my friends had a son who was killed by a vicious pit bull. The dog was put down, but there was much grief that the father suffered because the attack came out of nowhere---and he had no idea as to why his 7yr old son had to die. It caused him much bitterness/grief.....and for awhile, he turned from the Lord. However, in coming back to the Lord, he brought some of his concerns and later had it where his wife saw a vision of a woman with certain features bringing her son with her in Heaven. It was stunning to see how glorious they were and how her son was happy, but the elderly woman confused her. When she told her husband about it, he was shocked. For the elderly woman she described fit the description of his grandmother who had died BEFORE she had even known about her. She thought she was just seeing a vision of a random old lady with her son....but the husband knew that it was his godly grandmother with his son and the Lord showing them that the child was safe.

There are, of course, bad ways to go about doing things when it comes to the deceased. One example would be with Saul and the witch of Endor in I Samuel 28, as he sought council in an illegitimate way. As said in the original post, the Lord had already forbidden people in Israel to seek out contact with those who contact the dead ( Deuteronomy 18:10-12 , Isaiah 8:18-20 , etc ). Saul was seeking guidance...and as it turns out, the prophet Samuel appeared to him. In Samuel's case, I think he was called up by a 'special dispensation' of the Lord to deliver the message to Sha'ul the king. The witch of endor seemed to be very much surprised when she saw that it was truly a spirit of the deceased rather than familar spirits she was used to.....for she didn't expect to see someone who was coming in the Power of God/beyond her control.

With the witch, it may be the case that she often relied upon demons rather than the actual spirits of the deceased--and in that sense, she may've been a sham if claiming that she could talk to the dead. That in no way would mean that all witches were in the same category, just as it'd be the case that not all getting information from some demonic sources are to indications that all sources of information are demonically rooted. It may've been the case that calling up spirits of the dead was done by others...and the practices of ancient Israel do seem to indicate that it was a common practice.


Its possible to get intimate details on issues from demonic spirits posing as the deceased since even the deceased had demons that may've followed them/listened in on certain conversations that may've been thought to be private...and thus, they could report those details later. Saw a video recently on that subject when I was asked to speak about the demonic in media. It was on the Occult and was very fascinating. If interested, one can go online/look up an video at YouTube under the name of the following:

"The Occult In Your Living Room - YouTube" .​

Its by a man known as Stephen Dollins, an ex-Satanist High Priest for seven years with Anton LaVey's Church Of Satan. In it, he gave his personal testimony of how the power and love of Jesus Christ delivered him from the dark world of the Occult. Though I don't agree with all of his conclusions and views, I was glad for how he sought to expose the subtle devices used to infiltrate the homes of Christians and non-Christians alike to lure the young and old into the practice of witchcraft and Satanism.


What he noted about "familar spirits" is something that often comes to mind when it comes to fortune tellers and spiritists discussing the intimate details of others that people thought no one else knew...

 

[visionary]

With a little poison sweetened with sugar, administered with patience, the patient slowly died.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

With a little poison sweetened with sugar, administered with patience, the patient slowly died.

Indeed, but that goes also for when conclusions are made in scripture that appear to be healthy and they don't deal with the entire issue.

As it concerns the original post, it was asked whether it was appropriate at any point to believe in ghosts/spirits of the deceased being real---or able to be talked to by the Lord's allowance at certain points. You quoted Leviticus 20:6,, which is legitimate since it was not to be sought out..and I already mentioned that in the OP if you read it fully/the articles linked to it. Yet there wasn't really an addressment on your part (as it seems) of other instances where it seemed to CLEARLY be the case that the spirits of the departed were talked to. I already said that saints shouldn't actively go after certain things like that---but I also noted that the Lord can make allowance for it if/when he pleases....and I'm still wondering what to do with the clear example of Jesus who did so with the deceased spirits of Moses and Elijah.

As said in Luke 9:32-34 , "30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him"

If its wrong to talk to spirits of the deceased in all cases in scripture, then its odd to see clearly where Jesus was shown to be doing so. Granted, it was the Son of God who was doing so...but nonetheless, those being talked to were dead.

 

[visionary]

no where are you going to find in scripture where dead souls wandering around visiting the living.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

That doesn't deal with scripture, v...as there are plenty of scriptures concerning the SOULS of the dead wandering around afterward. It was one of the beliefs within Israel that all spirits go to the Lord but they also have to wait. Already gave out scriptural references on the issue, which you have not touched..and that's fine if that's your choice. But again, avoiding that doesn't mean that the scriptures don't give indication that the spirits of the departed do wander. Also, by your logic of spirits of the dead NOT being able to be talked to, you inadvertantly dismiss what clearly happened with Jesus. A


As said in Luke 9:32-34 , "30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him"

 

[visionary]

That doesn't deal with scripture, v...as there are plenty of scriptures concerning the SOULS of the dead wandering around afterward. It was one of the beliefs within Israel that all spirits go to the Lord but they also have to wait. Already gave out scriptural references on the issue, which you have not touched..and that's fine if that's your choice. But again, avoiding that doesn't mean that the scriptures don't give indication that the spirits of the departed do wander. Also, by your logic of spirits of the dead NOT being able to be talked to, you inadvertantly dismiss what clearly happened with Jesus. A


As said in Luke 9:32-34 , "30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him"

Both Elijah and Moses are known to be in heaven.. not as dead souls, but living in the flesh humans in heaven...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

For anyone who is willing to address the issue, some resources that were mentioned earlier:

• The Nakd Bible » Discerning the Dead, Part 1

• The Naked Bible » Discerning the Dead, Part 2

• The Naked Bible » Discerning the Dead, Part 3
• The Naked Bible >> Whittling Away at the Dead

Very good and intriguing information on the issue by Biblical Scholar Michael Heiser regarding what the scriptures say on the subject of the departed. And for an excerpt:

Here is the short list of passages (from the last post) we need to consider:

Deut 18:11; Deut. 26:14; Deut 28:62; Psa 88:5; Psa 88:10; Psa 106:28; Psa 115:17; Eccl 9:3; Eccl 9:5; Isaiah 8:19; Isaiah 26:14; Isaiah 26:19
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Continuing on in our efforts to parse the dead (metim) … I once again offer my working hypothesis:

The term “the dead” refers to those things that can and do die (they are inherently mortal, having determinate lifespans, and must do certain things [like eat and breathe] to keep existing). The most notable example, of course, is human beings, and so metim most often refers to human beings. The metim, then, are not the spirits (ʾob / ʾobot) that can be conjured. The metim do have some sort of disembodied existence and can be contacted (hence the prohibition), but don’t seem to be reliable sources of information. This would mean that the ʾob / ʾobot would be non-human spirits.
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Last time I posted about Deut 18:11; Deut 26:14; and Deut 28:62. Let’s try and get through more of the list.

Psalm 88:5; Psalm 88:10 -
3 For my soul is full of troubles,
and my life draws near to Sheol.
4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,
5 like one set loose among the dead (metim),
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
6 You have put me in the depths of the pit,
in the regions dark and deep.
7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
and you overwhelm me with all your waves. Selah
8 You have caused my companions to shun me;
you have made me a horror to them.
I am shut in so that I cannot escape;
9 my eye grows dim through sorrow.
Every day I call upon you, O Lord;
I spread out my hands to you.
10 Do you work wonders for the dead (metim)?
Do the departed (rephaim) rise up to praise you? Selah
11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave,
or your faithfulness in Abaddon?
12 Are your wonders known in the darkness,
or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
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It’s pretty clear that the dead (metim) in 88:5 refers to the human dead. The wider context clearly casts the dead as “the slain that lie in the grave.” In 88:10, though, there is an issue: are the dead in 88:10 synonymous with or alongside the rephaim? If the former, the dead may be non-human (or, better, more than human) mortals. Briefly, the rephaim are, most generally, the dead kings or great warriors of antiquity. Sources within and outside the Bible confirm this identification. In the biblical case, however, the rephaim are related (literally) to the giant clans in the Old Testament. These clans are in turn identified as descendants of the nephilim (Gen 6:4), who were offspring of human women and divine beings (the sons of God).1 There is nothing about the Hebrew that compels the conclusion that the terms are synonymous, and so my working hypothesis is still intact. Even if metim can refer to rephaim, it is clear that the giants of the OT were mortal-they could be killed-and so it wouldn’t be odd for the term to apply to them as well. Though our topic (differentiating terms for the human dead, ghosts / spirits of the human dead, and non-human Underworld spirits in the biblical worldview) relates to the question of Sheol and the afterlife, I don’t want to get sidetracked on that. I have another working hypothesis on that (scholars have widely disagreed), so that’s for another time.

Psalm 106:28 – Like Deut 28:62 in the previous post, this is a reference to sacrifices for the human dead. In this case, living people are condemned for eating from the animal sacrificed as an offering to the dead.

Psalm 115:16-18
16 The heavens are the Lord’s heavens,
but the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead (metim) do not praise the Lord,
nor do any who go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the Lord
from this time forth and forevermore.
Praise the Lord!
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There’s nothing in this text that would indicate that the dead (metim) are anything but the human dead.

Eccl. 9:3-5
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead (metim). 4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead (metim) know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
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The same can be said for these verses-the dead (metim) here appear to be the human dead. This verse is interesting as well in that it says “the dead know nothing.” One wonders why they were contacted, and how this verse fits into the prohibition against contacting the dead. We’ll hit necromancy in a future post on the present topic. In fact, the verses below deal with necromancy.

Isaiah 8:19
And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead (metim) on behalf of the living?
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This verse refers to the human dead being contacted. It’s pretty straightforward. We’ll see it again when we hit necromancy.

Isaiah 26:13-19
13 O Lord our God,
other lords besides you have ruled over us,
but your name alone we bring to remembrance.
14 They are dead (metim), they will not live;
they are shades (rephaim), they will not arise;
to that end you have visited them with destruction
and wiped out all remembrance of them.
15 But you have increased the nation, O Lord,
you have increased the nation; you are glorified;
you have enlarged all the borders of the land.
16 O Lord, in distress they sought you;
they poured out a whispered prayer
when your discipline was upon them.
17 Like a pregnant woman
who writhes and cries out in her pangs
when she is near to giving birth,
so were we because of you, O Lord;
18 we were pregnant, we writhed,
but we have given birth to wind.
We have accomplished no deliverance in the earth,
and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen.
19 Your dead (metim) shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light,
and the earth will give birth to the dead (rephaim).
​

This passage again takes us into the question of whether the term (metim) can refer to rephaim and not only the human dead. In Isaiah 26:14 it appears that the metim and the rephaim are identified with each other. This isn’t certain, but it looks that way, since both “they’s” in v. 14 likely refer back to v. 13-the other lords that ruled over Israel. This may refer to kings of old (and perhaps of giant clan lineage) that ruled over Israel but which were killed off.

I would argue, though, that in Isaiah 26:19 the dead are humans-specifically, human followers of Yahweh (“YOUR dead”-speaking of Yahweh). These believers will rise / be resurrected. In contrast the earth (the ʾerets in Hebrew) will ABORT the rephaim. The word ʾerets is the normal word for “earth” or “land,” but it is also a synonym for Sheol. The verb here is naphal. In the Hiphil stem in means to “drop” and is used elsewhere as a euphemism for miscarriage or abortion. This passage is in what is known to scholars as Isaiah’s “little apocalypse” (Isaiah 24-27). I take it as a reference to events associated with the Day of the Lord, when the evil spirits will be expelled or released from the Pit before their final defeat (cf. Revelation 9).
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Both Elijah and Moses are known to be in heaven.. not as dead souls, but living in the flesh humans in heaven...

Doesn't matter whether they are known in heaven or not, however, if one claims that NO contact with the deceased----including those who are even godly--should be sought out. It can become semantical when trying to argue "Well, they're not really dead since they live in Heaven!!!"

That's not what NT believers were for. For there was an obvious reality that when someone goes to be with the Lord, phsycially they are dead. The morgue says that they're deceased...and their body is lifeless while their spirit lives on. Even Moses, though known to be with the Lord, is still DEAD---and the phrase "dead soul" is something that indicates a person whose body has died while their spirit lives on. That's what ghosts/spirits of the departed are---and that's essentially what Moses was, as Moses was known to have DIED..

Deuteronomy 34:5
And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.

Joshua 1:1-3

1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, the LORD said to Joshua son of Nun, Moses’ aide: 2 “Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to them—to the Israelites. 3

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Jude 1:8-10

​

The same dynamic of dying would also apply to Elijah...though its a bit more difficult for many since Elijah is known to have been taken up into Heaven in a fiery chariot (2Kings 2:11 ). However, Elijah’s chariot ride in chapter two comes between the reigns of two kings of Israel. 2Kings 3:1 says that Jehoram, son of Ahab reigned in Ahaziah’s stead...and Ahaziah died of a disease not leaving a son, so his brother, Jehoram became the King of Israel (cp. 2Kings 1:15-18). The beginning of Jehoram’s 12 year reign coincided with the eighteenth year of the reign of Jehosaphat, king of Judah. This is important, because the kings of Judah and Israel were allies. Before going to war with Moab they consulted the prophets, but Judah and Israel were not united in their faiths. Only Judah worshiped the Lord. Therefore, Jehosaphat desired a word from a prophet of the LORD before going to war, and in this case we are told the great prophet was Elisha (2Kings 3:11). Therefore, the time of this Scripture is definitely after Elijah ascended to heaven in a fiery chariot (2Kings 2:11). For many, the view is that it was either the case that Elijah came to give a word to the King AFTER he had died----verifying the concept of the departed giving messages at God's approval alone---or Elijah never went to Heaven before having to actually die first. For a good review on the issue, one can go online/look up the article entitled Is it True Elijah Went to Heaven? « Smoodock's Blogjavascript:void(0)




For those trusting in the Lord, there's a bit of a duality...as they will not ultimately perish since they will be with Him. Jesus noted this when it came to the Sadducees not believing in the resurrection...and his saying that the Lord is the God of the Living ( Matthew 22:31-33 , Luke 20:37-39 , Mark 12:18-28 , etc). The OT saints had this hope as well (Psalm 17:14-15 , Psalm 16:9-11 , Acts 2:26-28 / Acts 2 , 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 , etc)


Outside of that, if interested, here’s another article to file under contextualizing the Bible with respect to its literary conventions. You've probably heard Christian apologists say something like “the New Testament resurrection stories are like nothing in the ancient world,” a statement usually made to convince us that the resurrection was a bodily one. However, though I believe the resurrection was a bodily resurrection, statements like these on the part of well meaning pastors or apologists aren’t really informed. The following are two recent articles on how Mark and Luke use (or violate) literary conventions known throughout the Greco-Roman world for telling ghost stories when they write about Jesus (pre- or post-resurrection).

• Deborah Thompson Prince, The ‘Ghost’ of Jesus: Luke 24 in Light of Ancient Narratives
  of Post-Mortem Apparitions

• Jason Robert Combs, A Ghost on the Water? Understanding an Absurdity in Mark 6:49–50

 

[visionary]

Now you are getting into the state of the dead...

Yeshua said the dead sleep as in the example of Lazarus.. and I wouldn't argue with Him on the state of the dead.. He knows what He is talking about.

sleep = death

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

The kings of Israel.. "slept with their fathers"

1 Kings 2:10
So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

And years later... David is still dead and buried..

Acts 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said..

1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:20
And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

etc...

Sleep and resurrection...

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Every time Yeshua spoke of the dead.. He explains their state of dead..

Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Remember Lazarus..

John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep....... 13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Yeshua should know as our Creator... So if He says sleep/death is the way it is.. then it is... after all, He knows what He is talking about.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Now you are getting into the state of the dead...

..

The OP focus was already on the state of the dead. IMHO, Nothing new about that in a recent post..

Yeshua said the dead sleep as in the example of Lazarus.. and I wouldn't argue with Him on the state of the dead.. He knows what He is talking about.

I agree. However, no one in the thread was arguing about the dead being "asleep".....though even that had a context. For being "asleep" doesn't mean being without a conscious state of being. It simply means being in a temporary state of rest---and as it concerns the concept of departed spirits/ghosts, that is inherent when it comes to discussing the reality of how there's a duality of life/death inherent in life. Even when people die, they still live...but they may be in a different state than how it'll be when there's a resurrection. John 11:13-15 shows Jesus making plain that Lazarus is dead, yet he was able to raise Him to life....and prior to Jesus saying plainly to his disciples that Lazarus was dead, he said in John 11:10-12 that Lazarus had fallen asleep. Thus, the concept of death was still present...but it was given a context. The same goes for the little girl who Jesus rose from the grave--for Jesus noted that she had been "asleep" ( Mark 5:38-40 ) rather than "Dead" in the sense of forever lost/diminished. Same thing goes for Acts 7:59-60 when Stephen was killed and it was described as him falling asleep.

In sleep, the mind is STILL active and thus its why dreaming occurs...specifically at the stage of REM Sleep. One is inactive and yet their spirit is still processing things in a state that is not fully how things are meant to be...and the same goes for the concept of death. One can die physically in their body, yet still be in a state akin to dreaming where they're not yet where they are to be.

sleep = death

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

The kings of Israel.. "slept with their fathers"

1 Kings 2:10
So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

And years later... David is still dead and buried..

Acts 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said..

1 Kings 11:43
And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.




1 Kings 14:20
And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:31
And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

etc...

Again, I agree..

Sleep and resurrection...

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Love that scripture..

Every time Yeshua spoke of the dead.. He explains their state of dead..

Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Indeed, as I already mentioned earlier...

Remember Lazarus..

John 11:11
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep....... 13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead

Indeed, as I already mentioned earlier...

Yeshua should know as our Creator... So if He says sleep/death is the way it is.. then it is... after all, He knows what He is talking about

I agree. I also agree with what He said when it came to His supporting the Law, Prophets and the scriptures in the TORAH...and many of those things discussed how the spirits of the dead are not simply doing nothing. That is why I say that seeing his words on the dead being "alseep" need to be taken within the context of how early Jewish believers would have seen it. For they did not have the mindset that being dead/"asleep" meant that there was no form of waiting in a temporary state or that spirits of the deceased are not existing in the spiritual realms.

When one comes face to face with the Lord in totality, then one has truly AWOKEN--and everything else is truly a dream.....but prior to Christ, this is something that didn't happen immediately. As said before, What happens to the breath when it leaves the body (since it is the animating principle)? This question troubled the ancients, and had different opinions as we see here:

Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit [breath] of man that goeth upward, and the spirit [breath] of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
​

One theory held that it returned to God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [breath] shall return unto God who gave it.


​

For those who thought the breath was still alive and returned to God, they reasoned that one might see the disembodied breath on its way to God at differing times...and the Lord would also allow it to occur in certain cases. This temporary traveling breath was a “ghost” (“ghost” was the Anglo word for “breath&#8221.

This all goes back to what was mentioned earlier in when it came to Samuel being summoned by Saul in I Samuel 28:

4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”


“There is one in Endor,” they said.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”

9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”
10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, “As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this.”

11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
“Bring up Samuel,” he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!”

13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”

14 “What does he look like?” he asked.

“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.





​

From a literary perspective, the word ghost is helpful, so long as we do not picture someone in a white sheet moaning “boo.” There are many ghosts in world literature, such as the ghost of Hamlet’s father who tells the young prince something he already suspected was true. A ghost is basically an echo of the past speaking in the present; it is a memory that takes shape in our consciousness. But ghosts rarely bring comfort. They haunt us with memories of wrongs unatoned, regrets, and the fear that the past has determined our future. This story brilliantly dramatizes Saul being haunted by his own past and his sense of hopelessness.

And as I Samuel 28 indicates, it was possible to talk with someone from the deceased if....and ONLY if...the Lord allowed it to occur. For Samuel, he was in good relation to the Lord/resting (i.e. "sleeping")...but was distrubed from his temporary state of rest. There has to be a conscious state of some sort even as "sleep" was occurring for the dead if the scriptures are to be consistent. The same can be said of Jesus. For some use Ephesians 4:7-10 to teach that Jesus went to hell or to Hades to release the prisoners held there and take them to heaven or into God’s presence. The idea is that before His death, all Old Testament believers were in Abraham’s bosom—the paradise part of Hades. Hades or Sheol was seen as the place of the dead with three areas or compartments: (1) the abyss or tartarus, the place of confinement for those demons who sinned in the days of Noah; (2) torments, the place of suffering for all unbelievers until the time of the resurrection of the unjust and the Great White Throne Judgment when they will be cast eternally into the lake of fire, and (3) a third place separated by a great gulf (see Luke 16), called Abraham’s Bosom, the place of blessing for believers. Because Christ had not yet died to pay the penalty for their sin, they were not yet able to go directly into the presence of God. After His death, however, the barrier was removed and He took them out of prison and into God’s presence​

As Michael Heiser said best on his series on Sheol in his article Sheol: Does the OT Have a Concept of Eternal Bliss or Heaven?:​

.. on occasion, the righteous are said to be headed to Sheol (e.g., Jacob: Gen 37:35; 42:38; 44:31). This in fact is what steers many scholars (probably most) to see Sheol as either the grave or some sort of reference to a place “in the earth” that everyone goes to. This latter element is, of course, part of the three-tiered cosmology of ancient Israel and other ANE peoples. Sheol is “bad” because the wicked are there; Sheol isn’t “bad” because the righteous are there, too.

While it’s clear that the dead go to the grave/Sheol and therefore reside in Sheol (whatever that is), it seems that the questions of eternal paradise or eternal punishment are not addressed in the OT text. After all, there’s no real clear passage that speaks of Sheol being anything like heaven, and it’s never really described like we’d think of hell.
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thankful that the hope of the believer is never in vain. Something definately to keep in mind after funerals..

 

[BelovedUnion28]

Ghosts are just spirits who need prayer

 

[pat34lee]

Until the resurrection, the dead are doing nothing.

Eccliastes 9
[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalms 115
[17] The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ghosts, God and Supernatural: How many kinds of spirits existed in the OT/NT Judaism?

What about the event in Matt and Mark concerning Jesus walking on the water? Sure would have scared the bejesus outta me

Matt 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went away to them, walking upon the sea,
26 and the disciples having seen him walking upon the sea, were troubled saying--`It is an apparition/ghost/fantasma <5326>,'
and from the fear they cried out;
[Mark 14:23]

5326. phantasma fan'-tas-mah from 5324; (properly concrete) a (mere) show ("phantasm"), i.e. spectre:--spirit.

Phantasm Theme - YouTube

 

[visionary]

Deuteronomy 18:11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Any time when I see the Lord take a strong stand against something like "communicating with spirits" I may not understand all the reasons why.. but I trust that it is extremely important that I obey Him in these "abomination" instances. By the way, I was raised in a home where mother did have visitors, including her uncle, who died just shortly before she seen him. So I am very familiar with these activities.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What about the event in Matt and Mark concerning Jesus walking on the water? Sure would have scared the bejesus outta me

Matt 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went away to them, walking upon the sea,
26 and the disciples having seen him walking upon the sea, were troubled saying--`It is an apparition/ghost/fantasma <5326>,'
and from the fear they cried out;
[Mark 14:23]

5326. phantasma fan'-tas-mah from 5324; (properly concrete) a (mere) show ("phantasm"), i.e. spectre:--spirit.

Phantasm Theme - YouTube

That would have freaked me out as well. For myself, however, if the Lord sent someone back to speak of something in line with His Word just as it was with Christ and Elijah/Moses or others, I would not need to be surprised. When that source would begin telling others to not worship the Lord is where I'd have issue...and the same with doing what the Bible forbids with going to fortune tellers/people calling up the dead, as the Lord alone has authority to bring people back.