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It is the difference between a Roman version of the Messiah or the Jewish one... not anti-Christ... which is a major part of Messianic Judaism...
GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.We should be able to debate the differences without actually teaching against either. We can debate the Trinity without teaching against it - use the same process for other subjects. Job done!
AmenI would like to second and third and fourth, etc., Phil's observation that the teaching of non-Torah observance is not okay.
As I stated before, and have no problem stating again and echoing him, CF is full of places where teaching that we don't have to abide by Torah is allowed and applauded so please let the Messianic Judaism forum be what it is supposed to be, a forum for the promotion of Torah observance as a set-apart lifestyle for those being saved by the Holy One of Israel.
And I, for one, will begin to hit the report button. It may become very grievous to the mods (especially in the amount of reading that may require) but promotion of non-observance in a Torah-observant forum should not be blatantly tossed around!
Tishri, let me say, I appreciate you jumping in on this. I just regret that it caused you to have to work on a day you may have had off. Makes me appreciate you and what you do all the more. Thank you greatly!!
GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.
Same with my congregation... but the members who go to both, do not come in the synagogue preaching sunday keeping.. if you get my drift... it is not for everyone... and if you talk further with those who are doing "sunday" you find that while in the synagogue, they claim that the #1 reason that they go to sunday keeping is to see if there are any other seekers who are hungry for the Word, #2 have relatives who still go there, and #3 they like ____..... but one thing they do not do is come into the synagogue talking that church is better than synagogue teachings.Well that depends on which congregation one attends and/or the organization it's under such as MJAA, UMJC etc.
Congregations I'm used too and acquainted with the focus is Yeshua. The focus isn't ethnos but the Logos as the promise Savior who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write. In regards to Torah observance there isn't even any issues on levels of observance or condemnation of no observance. However we do worship on the Sabbath. And there are LOTS of believers who also are members of churches worship with us. Of course at events the food that is served is according to Lev 11 but it's not a focus, it's just the way it is.
While anti-either will help... pro-other shouldn't be.What about things that are neither commanded or forbidden? Example we don't celebrate Christmas but I don't have any issues with a believer celebrating Christmas provided it's celebrated in a Christ centered way without the secular stuff. I have to find a sermon so to speak that one of the elders at our congregation did on Christmas, it was very good.
I'd like to say that the teaching of non observance isn't OK and or on similar notes that the Law of Moses is abolished etc. I guess I'm more lax than most here.
Same with my congregation... but the members who go to both, do not come in the synagogue preaching sunday keeping.. if you get my drift... it is not for everyone... and if you talk further with those who are doing "sunday" you find that while in the synagogue, they claim that the #1 reason that they go to sunday keeping is to see if there are any other seekers who are hungry for the Word, #2 have relatives who still go there, and #3 they like ____..... but one thing they do not do is come into the synagogue talking that church is better than synagogue teachings.
What about things that are neither commanded or forbidden? Example we don't celebrate Christmas but I don't have any issues with a believer celebrating Christmas provided it's celebrated in a Christ centered way without the secular stuff. I have to find a sermon so to speak that one of the elders at our congregation did on Christmas, it was very good.
I'd like to say that the teaching of non observance isn't OK and or on similar notes that the Law of Moses is abolished etc. I guess I'm more lax than most here.
True however what I find here is a lot of contention against those in Christianity whether they come here and preach against or they don't. Which is my point. When someone posts that they observe Sunday as an example without preaching against Saturday.... Other who keep Saturday shouldn't come and preach against those that keep Sunday especially if the person isn't preaching against neither.
I guess I'm defending the Christians here who fall in this category.
I think the more relaxed view in Messianic Judaism, are the Jewish believers.
I personally did not leave Christianity or a Christian church. I joined in worship with Messianic Judaism, because it is more culturally Jewish. So, I don't have anything against Christian churches, other then that they wanted me to act like a Gentile and abandon Jewish culture. Since most were Gentile, and had a difficult time telling the difference between Jewish culture and being 'bound', I can't really blame them, but also, I am more relaxed in Messianic Judaism. I know born again Christians are brothers (and sisters) in the Lord, and many dearly love Yeshua, seeking to serve Him with all that they are. I certainly can not object to that, but instead encourage and applaud that.
Jewish people in general tend to be more relaxed in religious observance, and less anti-.... on others practices.
On the other side, the more recent Gentiles who have joined Messianic Judaism, aren't joining us, so much as objecting and leaving the church. It is an entirely different view.
I still have a hard time understanding what exactly Torah observance and other such terms really means here. Its so generic that it doesnt carry any specific meaning, and I think thats what causes problems. If someone suddenly claims that keeping the Torah includes cutting the foreskin off of your own son (rather than having a mohel do it, since mohalim are not mentioned in the Torah), would it be anti-Torah to state that this is not how it should be done? After all, Abraham (not a doctor) circumcised his own household and Moses himself (not a doctor) cut the foreskin of his son, Gershom. Does opposing oddball practices that have nothing to do with Torah observance itself push someone over the line into anti-Torah argumentation?
I have to say as an outsider that all of this posturing seems to be due to a weakness in argument. If it were truly demonstrable that the New Testament promoted the observance of Torah, would you need to set up rules that keep people from talking about it? These rules seem to be a safety net to keep honest discussion at bay. Thats my two cents (2¢).
How about Mount Sinai in light of Yeshua and His accomplishments and His lifestyle position as our Rabbi teacher...?? It isn't exactly Judaism personified, but that doesn't mean we can not glean from their centuries of gathered wisdom on the subject and incorporate that which doesn't separate the Jew from the Gentile in the keeping of Torah. The Torah is not just for the Jew but for all nations.I agree we have to define what Torah observance is at a minimum.
GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.
But: (1) You are not Torah observant and (2) your beliefs in most matters are very Protestant Christian. You're exactly the type of person he's writing about.
Here is an example of a Jew stating that my Torah observance is not... nor would "Jesus" recognize it as such.... which should be unacceptable... I know where he is coming from.. because that is the way Jew "Judaism" teaches.. but I do not believe MJ should promote it.... By the way the little "Jesus" term thrown in there was a little over the top since I do not see Yeshua in the light of the Roman/Greek "Jesus" projected.. it is like my Messiah has been stripped of His Rabbi robes.Do you think Jesus would recognize anything of your religious practice? Honestly?
I think the more relaxed view in Messianic Judaism, are the Jewish believers.
I personally did not leave Christianity or a Christian church.
I joined in worship with Messianic Judaism, because it is more culturally Jewish.
So, I don't have anything against Christian churches, other then that they wanted me to act like a Gentile and abandon Jewish culture. Since most were Gentile, and had a difficult time telling the difference between Jewish culture and being 'bound', I can't really blame them, but also, I am more relaxed in Messianic Judaism. I know born again Christians are brothers (and sisters) in the Lord, and many dearly love Yeshua, seeking to serve Him with all that they are. I certainly can not object to that, but instead encourage and applaud that.
Jewish people in general tend to be more relaxed in religious observance, and less anti-.... on others practices.
On the other side, the more recent Gentiles who have joined Messianic Judaism, aren't joining us, so much as objecting and leaving the church. It is an entirely different view.
GT is for debating the differences without actually teaching against the other's. Here on MJ we need to be clear that you start with Torah positive and relate everything around it to His Word. It is one thing to believe in Euchrist / Easter /Sunday keeping... it is quite another thing to drag it into a Seder / Passover /Sabbath keeping MJ congregation like this section of CF is suppose represent and talk like it is the same thing. I will not bring up or start any threads on Euchrist /Easter /Sunday keeping... but I sure will cut it to the quick for anyone to bring it in here like it is kosher... I say leave that stuff at the door and enter in supporting God's commands.
I do believe the forbidden topics should be those that Messianic Judaism has specifically written formal position papers against.
Most definitely. For good, or for ill.
Exactly. Just as you would like me to take your word for things pertaining to Judaism, I can tell you about Christianity from a first-hand perspective.
You're welcome. Back in 1981, I was one of those who helped make it so. I cannot tell you the hours spent contending that Messianic shuls should not be merely churches where we put up Jewish art on the walls. I was also one of those arguing that Jewish missions should not entail merely "getting a profession", and then "send them to a local church".
The modern Messianic Jewish leadership that is so highly valued by some strike me as conveniently short-sighted and ungrateful for the level of effort and support they have received from many, many Gentile Messianics.
This is a posture that has existed since before "Messianic Judaism". We have always called it "Hebrew Christianity". That term described Christians who happened to be of Hebraic descent and culture.
Up until around the early 2,000's, MJ was on a track towards developing its own independent theology and culture, apart from the Christian churches. Then it got side-tracked.
Not the case in my experiences. More like, people who are uninformed of the difference are more relaxed. People who know, know the differences make a difference.
Yes. You are referring to those who follow, "Hebrew Roots of the Christian Faith"--the Two Housers and Sacred Namers, and contrarians who find paganism behind every tree and under every rock. They are against everything and everybody, Christian, Jewish, or Other.
"Messianic Judaism" cannot write "formal position papers". It is a movement. And a movement that is far from monolithic, at that. Individuals within the movement voice their opinions as part of the ongoing discussion.
If by Sunday keeping, you are saying that Sunday is the Sabbath, I would agree as the Sabbath was never changed. However, if the person doesn't view Sunday as the Sabbath, but sees at as good to gather for worship on Sunday, that is truly right. During Temple times and today, in synagogues, there is worship on all 7 days.
Easter is actually celebrating the day of the resurrection, which coincides with the first fruits wave offering. Yes, it was altered by the first council of Nicea to move it away from Passover and make it unrelated to Jewish things, but at the most basic, we both celebrate the same thing.
I have more of an issue theologically with the Eucharist as I understand it as supporting transubstination or consubstination.
But, as long as the person is not arguing against Saturday being the Sabbath, or arguing against Passover while promoting Easter, I see no reason not to discuss either one.
I do believe the forbidden topics should be those that Messianic Judaism has specifically written formal position papers against.
I still have a hard time understanding what exactly Torah observance and other such terms really means here. Its so generic that it doesnt carry any specific meaning, and I think thats what causes problems. If someone suddenly claims that keeping the Torah includes cutting the foreskin off of your own son (rather than having a mohel do it, since mohalim are not mentioned in the Torah), would it be anti-Torah to state that this is not how it should be done? After all, Abraham (not a doctor) circumcised his own household and Moses himself (not a doctor) cut the foreskin of his son, Gershom. Does opposing oddball practices that have nothing to do with Torah observance itself push someone over the line into anti-Torah argumentation?
I have to say as an outsider that all of this posturing seems to be due to a weakness in argument. If it were truly demonstrable that the New Testament promoted the observance of Torah, would you need to set up rules that keep people from talking about it? These rules seem to be a safety net to keep honest discussion at bay. Thats my two cents (2¢).
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