Messianic Judaism?

Which essentially explains why Sunday keeping is part of Torah observance.

Avodat said:

How we say things, or write them, can violate a basic premise of Torah - that we should love others as we love ourselves.

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Our we straining a gnat but swallowing a camel?

ContraMundum said:

HI Tish,

I say there is nothing wrong with the rules, and that the sub-forums are already in place to make concessions for the "problems" pointed out by the two who are complaining.

I think that the history of this forum has always been one of making concessions for the varying positions on MJism, and therefore the complaints we are seeing is really just a lack of compliance with those concessions.

Tal is basically making his points based on his own religious ideals- but we have a sub-forum that is perfect for him already. I think he has been judgmental on others here and this was never meant to be a place where conversation and opinion was to be dominated by one or two people judging all others, as if they had some kind of authority at all.

There are other forums that these would-be judges of the brethren would not be tolerated at all. There are others where they already post and are tolerated.

My solution is this:

- There are already sub-forums for those who believe they are more "observant" than others. People who wish to discuss this kind of thing or be encouraged in their walk towards that should merely post there. This is not difficult.

- Don't change the rules at all- just encourage 1) tolerance and 2) posting in the appropriate sub-forums. Enforce the breaches of the rules already in place and all will be well.

- If people find that the Christian Forums MJ forum is too lax for them, then they ought to consider whether or not they are suited to it. Rather than force everyone else to make even more concessions for the few, perhaps it's just not the right place for the kind of doctrinal tyranny they are standing for.

The concessions have already been made. The forums are in place. Why all the shouting and crying?

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In agreement 100%...as enough is enough with the concessions when what has already been offered was not honored. There should be no concessions with others who've shown no desire to honor rules/standards at CF repeatedly - as the forums for debating on certain things were never used fully to the extent they were, despite all of the hard work people put into them and the continual complaining done by people who just didn't want to have present any disagreeing with their own realm of Torah Observance.

There shouldn't be any concessions with people who (be it here or on other boards ) have made it a habit of saying how corrupt all of Christian Forums is and have made known contempt for the forums when saying commentary on Christians/Christianity that doesn't even represent what Christians are really for. No other forum says "You can denounce Nicene Creed and still be allowed to be present in complaint" or "You can say the Church serves a false God and Christians hate God's people" - as the rules are enforced with the site wide rules...yet here, that has been said repeatedly/reported by others and it's allowed because people want to talk on how they feel they want to be "Torah Observant"/deserve to be heard.

And on the issue of observance, there's simply no way around the fact (if we're to be shooting from the hip/being honest) that the main ones often complaining on it have zero idea of what that is. When Messianic Jews started the movement, they noted what it meant to Observe the Torah and how they wanted things to go. The forum used to be very direct in advocating that when the SoP was based directly on what the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) said - in order to give some semblance of connection to what is happening in the Messianic Jewish movement. There were people who complained on it despite the fact that Messainic Jews noted that some of the complaints were based in views that were not really shared by real Messianic Jewish believers for decades. Later, it was brought to the point where people began to even claim that we need no connection with the Messianic Jewish movement/organizations who have led the way since (in their own view) things have changed and the small/minority views decided to change to form their own groups. Had it stopped there, that would have been cool since people were doing their own thing - but what happened was that people decided to say at that point that the Mainstrream Messianic Jewish groups were "NOT Torah Observant!!!!!" (i.e. not in agreement with their views of observance and too much in connection with the Church/Christianity) and then attempt to demand all others yield to their views.

ContraMundum said:

My solution is this:

- There are already sub-forums for those who believe they are more "observant" than others. People who wish to discuss this kind of thing or be encouraged in their walk towards that should merely post there. This is not difficult.

- Don't change the rules at all- just encourage 1) tolerance and 2) posting in the appropriate sub-forums. Enforce the breaches of the rules already in place and all will be well.

- If people find that the Christian Forums MJ forum is too lax for them, then they ought to consider whether or not they are suited to it. Rather than force everyone else to make even more concessions for the few, perhaps it's just not the right place for the kind of doctrinal tyranny they are standing for.

The concessions have already been made. The forums are in place. Why all the shouting and crying?

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What you noted would be directly in line with what has already gone on in the forum and what many actually voted for by Many Messianic Jews. The UMJC was referenced at one point on the boards as a reference point (as seen here in #413 ) - and although others were good with it, there were a select few who complained in the name of "Non Observance isn't observing Torah."

But even then, that was addressed in detail - and as before, for basic reference, one can go here to #128 in regards to keeping up with all of the hard work that went down to accomodate people as much as possible - both with giving multiple forums to discuss issues (from the "All Things Torah" to the "Brigde Builders" and keeping this forum - the main one - SOLELY for fellowship/answering inquiries). Additionally, the main two threads where votes went down to show where others stood are the following:

• Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
• Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

More was discussed elsewhere on the matter as well - here in #35, #51 , #64, #74, #77 #162 , #167 . Messianic Judaism/its founders and leaders have often said things that don't fit in with the narrative of others claiming "Torah Observance!!!" the loudest - or claiming that the Church/Christians only keep part of the 10 (despite the fact that they show no evidence whatsoever where they and others actually do any differently and come close to keep the Torah consistently in fullness) - and they don't like it when seeing real Messianic Judaism that says they do not seem themselves in disconnection with Christianity or the Church. People have to resort to absurd reductionist arguments when saying that Messianic Judaism must have come from the Methodists or the Baptists in order to be considered as connected to Christianity - for what has been noted was Christianity is Jewish - and Messianic Judaism is Jewish Chrisitianity (as the early body of believers in Acts - sprung from the Judaism of its day - was a Jewish Christian body). It has always been about complimenting the larger body of CHrist in CHristianity and being a movement based in outreach - with Jewish believers coming from all parts of the Church to emphasize the Jewish lifestyle, cultural heritage and perspective.

Obviously, Jewish Christianity/Messianic Judaism differs greatly from what you see in much of traditional Christianity (which is Gentile focused ). We don't promote Replacement Theology, nor do we say that all things "Torah" are done away with (i.e. Festivals, Feasts, Kosher, etc.) since many things remained and other things have been transformed to have a different emphasis. We focus on studying the ways Yeshua handled himself as a Jewish follower of the Father and worked with Jews/Gentiles - and we seek to understand ways that we can promote proper outreach for Jewish people who differ in lifestyle/practice ....and yet despite all of that, there is much in common with Messianic Judaism and traditional Christianity at various points.

That is what occurred with the MODERN 60s/70s Messianic movement being developed in the Church when seeking to do outreach amongst the Jewish people who wanted to feel represented

However, others have never really wanted to be honest in addressing that and dealing with what other Jews have said coming out of Judaism into the Messianic Jewish movement - so the only way to get what folks wanted in denouncement is to disconnect themselves from the larger movement - and then begin to fight over who really deserved the title of "Messianic Judaism." Regardless of what other Jewish believers were saying or regardless of the ways that what they did never was in line with Jewish culture/could be verified with Jewish practice.

But at every turn, many cases can be seen clearly where the actions and lifestyle of Yeshua/The Apostles in their views of Torah have NOT been respected. The reasons why they haven't is because it doesn't line up with a pre-supposed view of what Torah Observance should look like - not one which is based in the actual actions of Christ.

ContraMundum said:

My solution is this:

- There are already sub-forums for those who believe they are more "observant" than others. People who wish to discuss this kind of thing or be encouraged in their walk towards that should merely post there. This is not difficult.

- Don't change the rules at all- just encourage 1) tolerance and 2) posting in the appropriate sub-forums. Enforce the breaches of the rules already in place and all will be well.

- If people find that the Christian Forums MJ forum is too lax for them, then they ought to consider whether or not they are suited to it. Rather than force everyone else to make even more concessions for the few, perhaps it's just not the right place for the kind of doctrinal tyranny they are standing for.

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Seeing that many wish to make the topic about Torah observance - a tenet of Messianic Judaism IN THIS FORUM AND BY THIS SOP - I think part of the solution in the larger sense is making plain that the SoP/Torah Observance is to be enforced within the larger framework of Christianity - as CF (Christian Forums) was originally set up to be about. People bring up the issue of icons/claiming that others are somehow "violating them" or not being allowed to share their thoughts if and when it disagrees with their views on observance of Torah.

I say that there has already been disqualification to talk on anything regarding others needing to be Torah Observant if/when they cannot honestly say that they're Christians - in support of CHristians. The early believers from Messianic Judaism in the 1st century did so already (Acts 11:25-27 , Acts 26:27-29 and 1 Peter 4:15-17 as well as the many writings of Jewish believers in Messiah from that era).

And if you cannot claim to be a Christian while having a Messianic icon, truthfully you already violate the purpose of the icon to begin with. Dr.Michael Brown - one of the chief Messianic Jewish leaders in the body - has noted this repeatedly (as seen here, here, here and here).

Yes, it is meant to symbolize Messianic Judaism - but the founders of Messianic Judaism have already noted repeatedly that being in Messianic Judaism was always meant to be seen as being a part of the movement that is directly connected to the larger Body of Christ - a movement within Christianity rather than BREAK-Away (just as Christianity itself was a sect within Judaism alongside others ).

That is what Christian forums was made for - and if anyone claims to be Messianic/Torah Observant but cannot acknowledge that they are Christians in line with what CF has said in the Site-Wide Rules, what right do they have to speak on how the Sub-Forums or Faith Group forums should be at all? It seems very little if we're being logically consistent with the rules. IMHO, it is avoiding a larger reality in trying to pigeon-hole any conversation to Torah Observance (as if the forum was made exclusively for that) when the forum was made in a system designed EXPLICTLY for Christians to feel safe - and then claiming that the only way for anyone to be Torah Observant is to claim that those who are Christians can never qualify as loving Torah/Observing it - regardless of what is actually practiced. It is using the issue of distinction (valid) to make an invalid conclusion in distancing themselves from anything they subjectively deem seperate from them in order to maintain the claim "Torah Observant" ...and that is not logical. That is what many Messianic Jews - who also have called themselves CHristians -have been saying for decades.

Again, it should be a very big deal that others cannot make claim to being Torah Observant when they express Anti-Christian sentiment that Christians are not such - or cannot claim that they are in line with CF in seeing themselves as Christians. For that ends up being a battle in Non-Christians (those who are self-expressed Non Chrisitans) trying to tell other Christians how to accomodate them on boards not meant for them.

yonah_mishael said:

But: (1) You are not Torah observant and (2) your beliefs in most matters are very Protestant Christian. You're exactly the type of person he's writing about.

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Wrong... I believe it is against the rules for you to judge my Torah observance.

ContraMundum said:

It's just absurd.

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Indeed.

macher said:

Our we straining a gnat but swallowing a camel?

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Good point.

Just a note and please let me know if I heard both groups correctly ......

Ez you don't like it when folks bash Christians in MJ right?

and assuming others in your group agree lemme ask the first group if they feel they are doing that?

And another question for the first group... Did I hear you all correctly that you don't like the anti Torah teaching coming from some Christians specifically? Or Does Ez have it correct that you also don't like Christians in general?

Easy G (G²);62088768 said:

I'd say I'm with the second group as well as others who've already shared- not against Torah Observance (i.e. Celebrating Festivals, Shabbat/Sabbath being enjoyed, studying Jewish culture, seeing the Laws/Commands Christ called for and that the early Jewish community walked in, etc.) - but at the same time, understanding like many mainstream/founding groups of Messianic Judaism have noted that the Messianic Judaic movement was never meant to either be seperate from Christiantiy or in competition with it - or DENOUCNING/Deriding it and all who are Christians. I am in agreement with the Messianic Jewish groups talking on focusing on the Grace of God when it comes to Torah Observance/all on a differing level of journey and not waging war with the Church as if it's godly.....or allowing Anti-Christian ideology to be allowed as if it's Jewish since it's not and other leaders in Messianic Judaism have noted it.

There were multiple forums made/time and effort given to allow for diverse thought to occur - be it the Bridge Builders Forum or the All Things Torah - and the main one all post in was for fellowship/answering questions - regardless of whether or not all agree. That hasn't been done since all giving differing answers from their differing experiences often get at each other's throats - and it is said both here/elsewhere that Christianity is the problem/not to be promoted for those who are Messianics. That doesn't line up with what most Messianic Jews have noted and it's something that many in Jewish culture have been turned off by. Moreover, it doesn't line up with CF - and that's something that can be problematic.

I think it can be solved if others learn to get along - not by constantly telling others they're not "observant" enough on the boards - but by learning to disagree agreeably when seeing that there is diversity. I also think it can be solved when others aren't allowed to say things and the mods are effective in keeping others (more so from GT) from coming in/denouncing all things in Messianic Judaism or saying all things with Torah are pointless.

I think it can also be seriously solved by doing what is done on all other forums and seriously shutting down talks that basically say Christians are the enemies and that the Church doesn't serve the Jewish Messiah or that Christianity is a problem since that is something Messianic Jews have noted to be problematic - and it puts us at odds with the mission of CF in what they ask for site wide. Unless it is the case that the Messianic Judaism forum is something that is going to be exclusively be allowed to be blantantly against Christianity. Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are Christians and that shouldn't be discouraged or belittled.

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This is a great place to be specific so when you say Torah observance on many levels , that is fine and you would just like there to be "some" observance in common did i hear you right? that it doesn't have to be to a certain level to be accepted right?

And what about those who have no level? Just don't teach against it? Did I hear that correctly?

yedida said:

Well, alright then. I'm of the first group. When we were hashing out examples with you and came up with the "different levels of Torah observance" it was taken for granted that all were observant to a degree.
Example: Biblically kosher, fully Rabbinically kosher, or somewhere in-between those two - BUT kosher to some degree.
We were not saying that those who love to chomp down on ham sandwiches were not welcome in here, just that this is not part of Torah-observance and should not be taught in here. There's a whole slew of congregational and faith areas these people can teach this, leave this one Torah observant.
There are other things but right now I'm having trouble thinking of the wording to use, so I'll wait for a bit.....

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It is those who think sunday keeping is Torah observance.

So it sounds like you also agree that being here means that you do agree with differing levels of Torah Observance just having also respect for Christians who come in asking questions and not belittle them when they dont see scripture saying what MJ teaching says right?

Easy G (G²);62088842 said:

It really goes back to what was noted before with discussing the things that are appropriate for the forums. If others feel that eating something like shellfish is totallyg against what the Lord says, they can post more so in the "All Things Torah" forum with others who have the same mindset - but they should not be allowed to denoucne other Messianics/Jewish leaders in the Messianic organizations (i.e. MJAA, UMJC, IMJA, Tikkun, Ariel Ministries, First Fruits of Zion, etc.) that note that there are differences of opinion on what the food laws are for, when they apply and what the scriptures say for Messianics in Acts 15. There has always been historical discussion/debate amongst Jewish culture since the days of Christ when it comes to interpretation - and that is something that has to be honored, IMHO, if we're to honor who Yeshua is ...and what the apostles stood for.

They didn't wage war against the Church - nor did they wage war on Christians (seeing that they were also called such according to I Peter 4 and Acts 11) and it doesn't honor them for the same to be allowed so in the name of "observance of Torah."

If others feel that someone's too strict because they feel all Messianic believers should attend synagouge on Sabbath - whereas some feel (in their own study) that one should simply stay home and rest - and both are able to back it up/living out what they see from the scriptures - there can a simple recognition of differences and simply realizing what is. Don't allow others to say what can be demeaning to Jewish believers when saying "You're just Christian" or saying "True Observant Messianics don't do as Christians did" since that's not what most Messianics hold to anyhow - even though they differ from mainstream Christianity on multiple points. That would honor other Jewish believers in Messianic Judaism who have noted such authoratively for ages and keep us in line with the heart of Christian Forums.

In another example, if someone in their journey truly feels that they must wear a talit during service or a head covering, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that and letting them agree with others who do so. Those who do not should not tell those people that they're just "legalists" for doing so - or that they need to not do that. For that's what they do in their own Messianic Jewish fellowship.

In the event that there's disagreement, just as the SoP notes, people can choose to simply walk away and agree to disagree agreeably - but there shouldn't be bickering or commentary allowed that attempts to insinuate others not agreeing them are not observing Torah/loving God's Law and studying it. That wouldn't be consistent with what is taught overall in Messianic Judaism as it is...and such cases have occurred before where others disagreed and things went well because they simply knew how to talk to one another .

Fellowship threads have been made multiple times in the fellowship forum and others have often enjoyed participation on it since it gives common ground - and that is something that makes a difference. If necessary, there's also the option of what was voted on long ago when it came to a variety of icons to identify others - such as what was discussed in the thread where a solution was reached.

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Tishri1 said:

Just a note and please let me know if I heard both groups correctly ......

Ez you don't like it when folks bash Christians in MJ right?

and assuming others in your group agree lemme ask the first group if they feel they are doing that?

And another question for the first group... Did I hear you all correctly that you don't like the anti Torah teaching coming from some Christians specifically? Or Does Ez have it correct that you also don't like Christians in general?

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I don't like it when people bash Christians too. I have more often than not most people who associate themselves with being Messianic bash Christians. Notice I didn't say Messianic Jews. The likes of the MJAA don't bash Christians, in fact they have close relationships with many churches and organizations. I find that's it's almost 100% non Jewish Messianic who bash Christians because there is resentment.

Tishri1 said:

This is a great place to be specific so when you say Torah observance on many levels , that is fine and you would just like there to be "some" observance in common did i hear you right? that it doesn't have to be to a certain level to be accepted right?

And what about those who have no level? Just don't teach against it? Did I hear that correctly?

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Is there such a thing as kind of pregnant? Nope, you either are or you are not. You may be just 1 week pregnant or ready to deliver - either way, you is pregnant. But like I said before, I couldn't care less how observant one is or isn't, it just shouldn't be allowed to teach in MJ that observing Torah is not necessary in the walk of a Messianic. How many other forums are there here in CF where that teaching is not only allowed but applauded? Let this one be TO through and through, please! And the very basics of MJ is a kosher lifestyle, honoring and guarding the Shabbat, observing the feast days as best we know how - more than that will come as each person grows in Messiah.

Dislike Christians? Anyone who would like to throw that off on me or some others on this forum would be nothing less than a liar, and a very bad one at that! I do not dislike Christians, I don't think anyone else here does either. That's just downright insulting that someone would try to give you that impression! I freely admit that I dislike what I call churchianity but that has nothing to do with how I feel about the people.

yedida said:

Is there such a thing as kind of pregnant? Nope, you either are or you are not. You may be just 1 week pregnant or ready to deliver - either way, you is pregnant. But like I said before, I couldn't care less how observant one is or isn't, it just shouldn't be allowed to teach in MJ that observing Torah is not necessary in the walk of a Messianic. How many other forums are there here in CF where that teaching is not only allowed but applauded? Let this one be TO through and through, please! And the very basics of MJ is a kosher lifestyle, honoring and guarding the Shabbat, observing the feast days as best we know how - more than that will come as each person grows in Messiah.

Dislike Christians? Anyone who would like to throw that off on me or some others on this forum would be nothing less than a liar, and a very bad one at that! I do not dislike Christians, I don't think anyone else here does either. That's just downright insulting that someone would try to give you that impression! I freely admit that I dislike what I call churchianity but that has nothing to do with how I feel about the people.

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Not true at all you're comparing apples to oranges. The fact is believers are suppose to exemplify love of God and neighbor. I heard Tim Hegg say unquote ' I know people who keep more Torah than those that keep the Sabbath, wear tzizit and keep kosher...'

So TRUE. Yeshua issue was that the teachers of the law were dragging people to hell. Yeshua even said to obey those that sit in Moses Seat yet he said the teachers of the law were dragging their students to hell. Why?

macher said:

Not true at all you're comparing apples to oranges. The fact is believers are suppose to exemplify love of God and neighbor. I heard Tim Hegg say unquote ' I know people who keep more Torah than those that keep the Sabbath, wear tzizit and keep kosher...'

So TRUE. Yeshua issue was that the teachers of the law were dragging people to hell. Yeshua even said to obey those that sit in Moses Seat yet he said the teachers of the law were dragging their students to hell. Why?

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So there is kind of pregnant too, I suppose?

Never mind.
You guys do what you want. It's not worth the headache.

macher said:

I don't like it when people bash Christians too. I have more often than not most people who associate themselves with being Messianic bash Christians. Notice I didn't say Messianic Jews. The likes of the MJAA don't bash Christians, in fact they have close relationships with many churches and organizations. I find that's it's almost 100% non Jewish Messianic who bash Christians because there is resentment.

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While I agree with your factual observations, I would have to take exception to you ascription of motivation.

I started as a Christian, and a rather zealous one, at that. The closer I drew to Jews and Judaism, the more I perceived that their were fundamental assumptions in Christianity that worked contrary to that movement--ideas that needed to be unlearned.

It was R. Kendall Soulen's book, "The God of Israel and Christian Theology", that finally demonstrated to me that the whole of Christian theology is founded upon supercessionism.

My theological emphasis is not driven by anti-Church motives, but by pro-Israel feelings. The recognition that the Bible is only and entirely about the Israeli empire, rather than a non-Israel Gentile community we call "the Church", is key to developing a consistent Bible-based theology.

yedida said:

So there is kind of pregnant too, I suppose?

Never mind.
You guys do what you want. It's not worth the headache.

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Again you're comparing apples to oranges. What would you say when a believer exemplifies love for God and neighbor?

My point is I know Christians who keep more Torah than those that keep kosher, keep the Sabbath etc.

mishkan said:

While I agree with your factual observations, I would have to take exception to you ascription of motivation.

I started as a Christian, and a rather zealous one, at that. The closer I drew to Jews and Judaism, the more I perceived that their were fundamental assumptions in Christianity that worked contrary to that movement--ideas that needed to be unlearned.

It was R. Kendall Soulen's book, "The God of Israel and Christian Theology", that finally demonstrated to me that the whole of Christian theology is founded upon supercessionism.

My theological emphasis is not driven by anti-Church motives, but by pro-Israel feelings. The recognition that the Bible is only and entirely about the Israeli empire, rather than a non-Israel Gentile community we call "the Church", is key to developing a consistent Bible-based theology.

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Sure there's exceptions 'to the rule'.

We both live in heavily populated areas with already established Jewish and Messianic Jewish synagogues. I think that makes a difference.

I just now had a chance to read through this thread to see what all the posting was about.

Concise and to the point, let's just all agree on tolerance, right, that's what Yeshua taught right, let's turn all CF into one of tolerance, 'eccumentical' I think they call it, a nice fancy word for 'all paths lead to G-d'.

Then we all should be on the right tract, right, all together on the wide road. ......

Yea, never fear EliYahu you are not alone!

There should be a distinction between hating christians and absolulely not wanting to associate with said doctrines of said "church". As a MJ, I have shored up many of the christian faith while I was on the road. They wanted to hear what I said, because I made it come alive to them. I didn't hate them, but, I am not going to be dragged into unscriptural dogmas, holidays, and generally teaching that the Son did away with the Torah of the Father.
Why do you think that Yeshua came as the Lamb of Adonai? Where would the "gentiles" be if that had not occured? Think on that...
The Jews KNOW that their Messiah will be coming as the LION. They will know him. While most of christianity is still holding to the Lamb idea (and I know the verses), He is coming as the LION. The LION is coming. The LION will be in Yerushalayim. The Jews will know him. Until Xtianity gets this concept, there will differences in theology. Gentiles should be grateful and thankful that Yeshua came as the Lamb to allow them a place in said relation to Adonai. He is not coming as the suffering servant. He is coming to rule with an iron rod. His Torah will be for all. It may not happen in my lifetime. Those that teach that the Torah has been done away with really don't understand who it is that is coming. People worry about saving the Jews. They will know their Messiah. For christians to teach that Adonai or his Messiah coming back will be Anti-Torah is sad, sad, sad. The coming Messiah will honor and uphold Torah---if not, he will not be the Messiah. It matters not if all of christendom teaches a lawless Messiah. The Messiah that comes will be absolutely identifiable by the Jewish people. He will not be teaching sunday worship, abolition of any part of Torah. This is who is coming. He came as a lamb and now has the absolute right to come as the Lion. That is who is coming. He will expect Torah to be kept. There really is no getting around that from a Messianic Jewish perspective.
Temptinfates