Messianic Judaism

[Lulav]

They are two different languages, but the Greeks didn't care about either one, and given that Hebrew was basically dead as a spoken language, they just called the Jewish version of Aramaic by the same name - the language spoken by the Hebrew people.

I understand they are different, I'm just trying to determine 'how' different, that's why I asked for a modern day example such as Our modern English compared to Old English. or is it more complicated?

You say that the Greeks didn't care about either one, given that we have our NT writings done in Greek then that would mean all the writers spoke and wrote Greek so Matthew and John were most likely not written by the apostles by that name?

You can tell which one is referred to only when a word is transliterated (such as "Golgotha," which is Aramaic and not Hebrew). All of the place names you mentioned above are Aramaic words, not Hebrew words.

I'm not sure I understand that, how can you tell that it refers to an Aramaic word, yet it says it is in the 'Hebrew', why didn't they say it was in Aramaic?

Additionally, it can be assumed that the posting above Jesus' cross was in Aramaic, not in Hebrew - so that people could read it. The people did not generally speak or read Hebrew as a fluent language.

I thought you said that Hebrew was read and spoken in Jerusalem?

What would be the difference between the Aramaic title and the Hebrew one?

 

[Devri]

How and with whom / through which congregation

Et B'nai Israel is the name of our synagogue.

 

[Lulav]

That has been my understanding too. Have they started going to a mikveh now? Do the MJ congregations have a mikveh?

There seems to be a concensus that the 'baptism' of the Christian church is different. The Jewish mikvah is not the same as Christian baptism where since in the earliest Church (RCC) it was done in infancy not of free choice. It was done and still is as a 'sacrament' to join the church.

Many that have been baptized in the church and become a part of MJ have another , and done as a mikvah in living waters (not totally like a Jewish mikvah) either in a lake, ocean, or river, like what was done by John 'the Baptist'. They are not dipped, but immerse themselves.

 

[Lulav]

Et B'nai Israel is the name of our synagogue.

Hi!

This one?

 

[yonah_mishael]

I understand they are different, I'm just trying to determine 'how' different, that's why I asked for a modern day example such as Our modern English compared to Old English. or is it more complicated?

There are a lot of cognate words between the languages. It's similar to Spanish and Portuguese, which are close but not the same.

You say that the Greeks didn't care about either one, given that we have our NT writings done in Greek then that would mean all the writers spoke and wrote Greek so Matthew and John were most likely not written by the apostles by that name?

I'm not sure I understand what makes you ask this.

I'm not sure I understand that, how can you tell that it refers to an Aramaic word, yet it says it is in the 'Hebrew', why didn't they say it was in Aramaic?

It doesn't say "in Hebrew." It uses a Greek term, not an English term. And that Greek term means BOTH Hebrew and Aramaic. What's difficult about that?

I thought you said that Hebrew was read and spoken in Jerusalem?

Hebrew was a native tongue in Jerusalem among certain groups, much like Yiddish is a native tongue among groups in Jerusalem today. It wasn't the tongue that everyone spoke, but the fact that it was kept alive as a mother tongue at all is surprising - but it apparently was. Anything made as an announcement to all people in the area would have been done in Aramaic, not in Hebrew.

What would be the difference between the Aramaic title and the Hebrew one?

I don't know Aramaic. I only know Hebrew. I can't tell you what it would be. I'm familiar only with the rudiments of Aramaic.

 

[Devri]

How can you square that with Paul?

I don't believe the law was done away with. I believe the Yeshua came to fully live the laws that were given to Moshe.

There is a difference between living the law as God gave it vs living the law according to the scribes and pharisees. After the time of Yeshua we are not required to sacrifice but that is the only law that we would not observe. It says in the New Covenant Matthew 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

I believe Paul was preaching against the man he used to be and I also believe he was a little extreme on the side of Christianity. There is a balance between the old and the new covenants. Man has gone from one extreme to the other whereby the orthodox Jew doesn't believe in Yeshua as the messiah and the Christians believe that we no longer have to live by the law that we are free through grace and mercy. This middle ground is where you find the Messianics.
Just my opinion...

 

[yedida]

There seems to be a concensus that the 'baptism' of the Christian church is different. The Jewish mikvah is not the same as Christian baptism where since in the earliest Church (RCC) it was done in infancy not of free choice. It was done and still is as a 'sacrament' to join the church.

Many that have been baptized in the church and become a part of MJ have another , and done as a mikvah in living waters (not totally like a Jewish mikvah) either in a lake, ocean, or river, like what was done by John 'the Baptist'. They are not dipped, but immerse themselves.

The mikveh/baptism I took part in, the water was gathered in both his (pastor's) hands and a blessing was spoken as the water fell back onto my submerged head. (I'd been struggling with the Sh'ma, but I came up out of the water sputtering it, the whole thing!!! for the first time, it was so special!!)

 

[Devri]

There seems to be a concensus that the 'baptism' of the Christian church is different. The Jewish mikvah is not the same as Christian baptism where since in the earliest Church (RCC) it was done in infancy not of free choice. It was done and still is as a 'sacrament' to join the church.

Many that have been baptized in the church and become a part of MJ have another , and done as a mikvah in living waters (not totally like a Jewish mikvah) either in a lake, ocean, or river, like what was done by John 'the Baptist'. They are not dipped, but immerse themselves.

The Jewish mikvah is done in a type of pool because we are supposed to do it naked and it requires a woman with a sheet to be present when you come out. That is the traditional way.

I did my mikvah in a baptistry and had clothes on. I don't believe tradition is as necessary as the act itself.

It is true that we immerse ourselves. We do this willingly and before God. It is not something done by another person.

It was a wonderful experience and I must say that it was so much more powerful with regard to the spirit as was when I got baptised into Christianity.

The power of the spirit was so strong I couldn't stop weeping. His presence was powerful that night.

 

[Devri]

Hi!

This one?

I don't think you will find us on here. We are located in Springfield, MO and are new. The forums won't let me post a link but if you google messianic voice springfield mo you will find us.

 

[xDenax]

I did my mikvah in a baptistry and had clothes on. I don't believe tradition is as necessary as the act itself.

It is true that we immerse ourselves. We do this willingly and before God. It is not something done by another person.

It was a wonderful experience and I must say that it was so much more powerful with regard to the spirit as was when I got baptised into Christianity.

The power of the spirit was so strong I couldn't stop weeping. His presence was powerful that night.

So, to me it sounds like you baptized yourself. Just being honest. I'm curious as to why it was necessary? Did you go under three times or once?

 

[rsduncan]

Simple when you explain it, but I'd have never thought of that on my own. You're much needed here, my friend.

Yep, yonah, you da man!!!

 

[Devri]

So, to me it sounds like you baptized yourself. Just being honest. I'm curious as to why it was necessary? Did you go under three times or once?

Yes it was self immersion with witnesses. I immersed 3 times.

As far as necessity...it is as with anything else we do as an outward act toward God for personal changes. A mikvah is/can be done with any event that creates change. It is a spiritual cleansing before you step into a new event.

 

[anisavta]

They aren't allowed to use the Jewish mikvehs and they
don't have their own. It seems they are using rivers. Could be a bit chilly
in the winter!

That's what our ladies have had to use - the river and it was for tohorat ha-Mishpacha. And yes the water is cold - all year round.

 

[ContraMundum]

It continues to amaze me as to why people have so much trouble with being baptized by another person in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as commanded by Jesus Himself. I really do think that there is an overly vigorous pursuit of self-indulgent experience that occurs when people start inventing their own traditions, such as self-immersion, nudity, and notions that one must engage in a facade of conversion to Judaism (which it most certainly is not) to be a "real" Messianic.

All this stuff is very...well....unscriptural. I guess when the words of Jesus aren't enough people just invent their own new ways to generate emotional religious experiences.

This has turned into a very sad thread indeed.

 

[rsduncan]

Well picked up!

Yeshua's warning against this was something I learned early on in my life as a Fundimentalist Christian and breaking G-d's Law through traditions is a trap I definitely try to avoid.

Nevertheless, the Jewish perspective on G-d's Law is extremely important to me. This forum is happily blessed with the presence of our Jewish bretheren and they are such great contributors and a welcome help.

Thank you for your earlier post. The perspective you have to offer from your background is a great blessing and I look forward to hearing much, much more from you...

 

[ContraMundum]

Yeshua's warning against this was something I learned early on in my life as a Fundimentalist Christian and breaking G-d's Law through traditions is a trap I definitely try to avoid.

Nevertheless, the Jewish perspective on G-d's Law is extremely important to me. This forum is happily blessed with the presence of our Jewish bretheren and they are such great contributors and a welcome help.

Thank you for your earlier post. The perspective you have to offer from your background is a great blessing and I look forward to hearing much, much more from you...

Thanks my friend. I do try to be more positive in my contributions, but I am the "bring it back to basics" kind of guy these days, which sometimes is taken as a negative by other posters.

I dig reading what's been posted here 9 times out of 10. Love your work in particular. Keep it up.

 

[anisavta]

This has turned into a very sad thread indeed.

Contra whether you like it or agree with it is neither here nor there really. People are asking questions and others are answering truthfully. This is how we learn from one another, how we change, how we grow in our individual walk with HaShem. Christianity in it's beginnings was also a hit and miss, give and take thing. It didn't just rise like a phoenix from the ashes to become a sparkling diamond and it has lots of doctrines and practices that are less than stellar now.

 

[visionary]

It continues to amaze me as to why people have so much trouble with being baptized by another person in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as commanded by Jesus Himself. I really do think that there is an overly vigorous pursuit of self-indulgent experience that occurs when people start inventing their own traditions, such as self-immersion, nudity, and notions that one must engage in a facade of conversion to Judaism (which it most certainly is not) to be a "real" Messianic.

All this stuff is very...well....unscriptural. I guess when the words of Jesus aren't enough people just invent their own new ways to generate emotional religious experiences.

This has turned into a very sad thread indeed.

by sprinkle or immersion?

 

[rsduncan]

Thanks my friend. I do try to be more positive in my contributions, but I am the "bring it back to basics" kind of guy these days, which sometimes is taken as a negative by other posters.

I dig reading what's been posted here 9 times out of 10. Love your work in particular. Keep it up.

"Back to basics" is definitely not a negative concept to me. I think it is very important to remain true to the original principles of Torah and G-d's Law...

 

[yedida]

It continues to amaze me as to why people have so much trouble with being baptized by another person in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as commanded by Jesus Himself. I really do think that there is an overly vigorous pursuit of self-indulgent experience that occurs when people start inventing their own traditions, such as self-immersion, nudity, and notions that one must engage in a facade of conversion to Judaism (which it most certainly is not) to be a "real" Messianic.

All this stuff is very...well....unscriptural. I guess when the words of Jesus aren't enough people just invent their own new ways to generate emotional religious experiences.

This has turned into a very sad thread indeed.

I'm sorry you feel that way.
When I first turned to Christianity, when I was 18 years old, I was of the hippie generation. I was bathed, clean clothes but a street person. My friend and I were turned out of over 1/2 dozen churches because we didn't look like the rest of the congregation. We were getting frantic over who was going to baptize us. We had read that we all were ambassadors for Christ so we figured if we were that then we could baptize each other, which we promptly did so we could be obedient.
Once I gave up the hippie life and became a "normal" person and was all at once "liked" by the churches I never felt a need to re-do my baptism. I felt very secure in what my friend and I had done in a pinch.
Then I backslid. I was left alone with a 2 year old and got my eyes off God and on how I was gonna survive.
After years of being away from the word, I returned and found Messianic Judaism. The "baptism" at that time was more of a change in life style mikveh, a turning back to God. It was not a baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
To this day, I have never felt a need to re-do my original baptism. It was done in good faith, for the right reason and with the right attitude. It took, and it kept me safe from straying so far away that I'd be lost forever.
Sometimes unconventionality is the mode to get things done.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.