Messianic Judaism

[anisavta]

Wouldn't Yeshua have read Hebrew from the Torah scrolls (Luke 4:16-21) - so I'm sure He was taught it. He had a pretty lengthy discussion with the Torah teachers in Jerusalem and no doubt had the scrolls out then. Luke 2:39-52

 

[yonah_mishael]

Aramaic is close enough to Hebrew that it would be very easily read. Even American Jews can read the Torah - but that doesn't mean that they speak Hebrew. In fact, most do not. Are you saying that an American Jew who doesn't speak Hebrew couldn't read from the parashah? Of course the could! And there's no indication that Jesus didn't know Hebrew, but certainly he spoke Aramaic - as even the NT demonstrates.

 

[Study The Manual]

How do you know that Jesus spoke Hebrew? I'm pretty certain that he spoke Aramaic. He wasn't from Jerusalem. He was from Galilee, and the Galileans certainly didn't speak Hebrew.

I understand that Jesus had Hebrew roots and was Jewish, but that doesn't mean that non-Jews have Jewish roots. Essentially, if you followed the teachings of Plato, that doesn't mean that you would have Greek roots. It just means that you would need to understand the Greek way of thinking in order to understand the author's arguments - not that you would have to start living and walking like the author did. I think the same thing is going on here – you don't need to become like the Jews of 2000 years ago (which I would dare you to do, by the way!) in order to follow the teachings of Jesus.



Where did you get that idea? There are certainly languages older than Hebrew.



A good friend of mine, Thom Stark, recently published a book about biblical inerrancy, called The Human Faces of God. He's currently working on his second book, one regarding the New Testament's position on the deity of Jesus. I read a pre-published version of his first book, and he's promised to let me have a crack at confronting his second, playing the devil's advocate, offering corrections and criticism, etc.

I'm not sure why I'm telling you this, but the deity of Jesus is soon going to be an issue that I'll read more into. As far as I've been told until now, the New Testament does indeed teach that Jesus is somehow divine in a special way, at least part of what God is. I might end up rethinking that eventually with reading this book, but I'm still uncertain what the position of Messianic Judaism is. If I asked a Baptist about the Trinity, they would all agree about it. If I asked a Oneness Pentecostal, they would all agree that there's only one God and profess something like Modalism.

Is it just the case that MJ is still young in terms of the modern movement and hasn't come to a consensus, or will there continue (do you all think) to be disagree even in the most basic of doctrinal issues among MJ adherents?

As far as MJ goes...there are no set rules. Nearly every congregation is different from another. The only common thread is Yeshua and some form of Judaism. Everything else is debatable...Rabbinic or not, Kabbalah or not, Speaking in Tongues or not, Trinity or not, ect. That is all I will say on that subject.

Any evidence I could provide (on any subject that you do not agree with) I am sure you will contradict. You seem to enjoy debating and winning debates. Since I am not about changing peoples minds or making them think one thing or the other but rather for getting people to do their own research and come to their own conclusions I will back down and let you resume your activity as presented in your other posts.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Any evidence I could provide (on any subject that you do not agree with) I am sure you will contradict. You seem to enjoy debating and winning debates. Since I am not about changing peoples minds or making them think one thing or the other but rather for getting people to do their own research and come to their own conclusions I will back down and let you resume your activity as presented in your other posts.

Then you certainly don't know me. I'd be satisfied if someone presented good evidence that Jesus spoke Hebrew. I've heard the position before, and it's never been presented well in anything that I've read. If you've got more updated information than what I've read, I'd be glad to read it. I'm not afraid to change my mind on anything.

 

[Study The Manual]

Kosher as found in Leviticus chapter 11 and Deuteronomy chapter 14.

Your right, that will teach me for multi-tasking. I MEANT that separating meat and dairy is not technically part of Kosher, but a Rabbinic law.

We eat vegan (no-animal products) so it does not apply to our family one way or the other.

 

[Heber]

As far as MJ goes...there are no set rules. Nearly every congregation is different from another. The only common thread is Yeshua and some form of Judaism. Everything else is debatable...Rabbinic or not, Kabbalah or not, Speaking in Tongues or not, Trinity or not, ect. That is all I will say on that subject.

Any evidence I could provide (on any subject that you do not agree with) I am sure you will contradict. You seem to enjoy debating and winning debates. Since I am not about changing peoples minds or making them think one thing or the other but rather for getting people to do their own research and come to their own conclusions I will back down and let you resume your activity as presented in your other posts.

Yonah does not disagree just for the sake of it. He is well known on this forum and well respected in the posts he is able to make. He is also open to correction if a sound argument is posited, as are many others on these fora. The whole ethos of these fora is that matters are talked through - in doing so we will come across people who know a lot more than we do and we can learn some valuable insights from them. We should never fall into the trap that we know best as there is almost certainly going to be someone who knows that little bit more, given that we have pastors, linguists and other academics among our regular posters!

 

[Devri]

But where does a Gentile have Hebrew roots? I don't understand the whole "Hebrew Roots" movement.

Because we as Gentiles are "grafted in" we are held accountable to the laws that were presented before the Jewish people.

I don't believe in a differentiation with regard to following the festivals and laws. These are God's laws and appointments not Jewish festivals. Therefore, it is necessary to understand the Hebrew culture, torah, and laws in order to observe them correctly.

There has always been great debate over this issue and I believe it is necessary for each individual to follow the leading of the Ruach Hako'desh and respond appropriately.

I am no longer a Christian because I found discrepancies, misguiding's, and an inability to answer my questions. When a Rabbi came into our Pentecostal church, I became interested, started studying, participated in a mikvah and converted to Messianic Judaism in April this year. My spiritual walk with God is much deeper, more fulfilling and God's word has come alive to me.

My relationship with God is now complete.

 

[Heber]

Because we as Gentiles are "grafted in" we are held accountable to the laws that were presented before the Jewish people.

I don't believe in a differentiation with regard to following the festivals and laws. These are God's laws and appointments not Jewish festivals. Therefore, it is necessary to understand the Hebrew culture, torah, and laws in order to observe them correctly.

There has always been great debate over this issue and I believe it is necessary for each individual to follow the leading of the Ruach Hako'desh and respond appropriately.

I am no longer a Christian because I found discrepancies, misguiding's, and an inability to answer my questions. When a Rabbi came into our Pentecostal church, I became interested, started studying, participated in a mikvah and converted to Messianic Judaism in April this year. My spiritual walk with God is much deeper, more fulfilling and God's word has come alive to me.

My relationship with God is now complete.

How and with whom / through which congregation

 

[yonah_mishael]

Because we as Gentiles are "grafted in" we are held accountable to the laws that were presented before the Jewish people.

How can you square that with Paul?

 

[ChavaK]

How and with whom / through which congregation

It's my understanding that there is no conversion to the Messianic faith.
One simply accepts it's beliefs. That the basic tenets of Christianity and the
Messianic faith are the same, the difference is in observing or not observing the Torah.
Perhaps I'm wrong?

 

[Lulav]

How do you know that Jesus spoke Hebrew? I'm pretty certain that he spoke Aramaic. He wasn't from Jerusalem. He was from Galilee, and the Galileans certainly didn't speak Hebrew.

That is a defiantly interesting statement Yonah, since you say your are pretty certain, I will assume that is because as a student of the ancient languages, such as Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, you have come across some documentation of the languages spoken and written back then. I would love to know that this is true, it could prove to be a very pivotal point in the study of the NT.

 

[yonah_mishael]

That is a defiantly interesting statement Yonah, since you say your are pretty certain, I will assume that is because as a student of the ancient languages, such as Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, you have come across some documentation of the languages spoken and written back then. I would love to know that this is true, it could prove to be a very pivotal point in the study of the NT.

It's well attested that Aramaic was the common language in the area. Recently scholars have shown that Hebrew was still a spoken language, but only around Jerusalem. The majority of all areas in Israel had Aramaic as their native tongue.

We see several instances in the Gospels where Jesus is specifically quoted in Aramaic (such as "talitha, kumi" and a few others). In fact, his words on the cross ("Eloi, eloi, lema shevachtani" - אלוהי, אלוהי, למה שבחתנ&#1497 were Aramaic. There isn't a single recorded instance of Jesus' words in Hebrew. He surely knew Hebrew at least well enough to read the Torah for public readings, but I don't know of anything to suggest that he knew it further than that. I'd be interested in evidence that he did.

 

[yedida]

It's well attested that Aramaic was the common language in the area. Recently scholars have shown that Hebrew was still a spoken language, but only around Jerusalem. The majority of all areas in Israel had Aramaic as their native tongue.

We see several instances in the Gospels where Jesus is specifically quoted in Aramaic (such as "talitha, kumi" and a few others). In fact, his words on the cross ("Eloi, eloi, lema shevachtani" - אלוהי, אלוהי, למה שבחתנ&#1497 were Aramaic. There isn't a single recorded instance of Jesus' words in Hebrew. He surely knew Hebrew at least well enough to read the Torah for public readings, but I don't know of anything to suggest that he knew it further than that. I'd be interested in evidence that he did.

Don't recall the reference off hand but IIRC, Acts' telling of Paul's conversion says that Yeshua called and spoke to him in Hebrew. Just 1 minor instance but it's there....

 

[Lulav]

@ Yonah

That's interesting, especially since I am currently watching my favorite show, Jeopardy! And started a thread about this, here.

Believe it or not, one of the answers was 'The Kol Nidre is sung in this ancient language, traditionally the one that Jesus spoke'

They also have a languages category in the second half.

 

[yedida]

It's my understanding that there is no conversion to the Messianic faith.
One simply accepts it's beliefs. That the basic tenets of Christianity and the
Messianic faith are the same, the difference is in observing or not observing the Torah.
Perhaps I'm wrong?

There are some congregations that have a sort-of gerim conversion process. It actually means very little, because it would not be recognized in Israel, nor would it be recognized here in any Jewish synagogue, and it's totally not needed to be recognized at a MJ synagogue. Why they have the ritual, I don't know. Maybe similar to a Christian baptism?

 

[anisavta]

Yonah does not disagree just for the sake of it. He is well known on this forum and well respected in the posts he is able to make. He is also open to correction if a sound argument is posited, as are many others on these fora. The whole ethos of these fora is that matters are talked through - in doing so we will come across people who know a lot more than we do and we can learn some valuable insights from them. We should never fall into the trap that we know best as there is almost certainly going to be someone who knows that little bit more, given that we have pastors, linguists and other academics among our regular posters!

 

[ChavaK]

Why they have the ritual, I don't know. Maybe similar to a Christian baptism?

Yes, it seems rather pointless. Maybe it is similar to baptism.

 

[Lulav]

It's well attested that Aramaic was the common language in the area. Recently scholars have shown that Hebrew was still a spoken language, but only around Jerusalem. The majority of all areas in Israel had Aramaic as their native tongue.

We see several instances in the Gospels where Jesus is specifically quoted in Aramaic (such as "talitha, kumi" and a few others). In fact, his words on the cross ("Eloi, eloi, lema shevachtani" - אלוהי, אלוהי, למה שבחתנ&#1497 were Aramaic. There isn't a single recorded instance of Jesus' words in Hebrew. He surely knew Hebrew at least well enough to read the Torah for public readings, but I don't know of anything to suggest that he knew it further than that. I'd be interested in evidence that he did.

Well, I see yedida beat me to it.

I was going to ask you what language was most spoken in the diapora, was it more likely Greek, or Aramaic.

Of course he would have known 'Biblical Hebrew' to read from the Torah, as in John I think it is that he gets an aliyah in his home synagogue and reads from the Isaiah scroll.

 

[ContraMundum]

to clarify, seem like there been some mutual misunderstandings here recently: I am making fun of jew obsessed christians, to whom, i believe its all a temporary fad. MJ , i truly hope , are not in it for the show. Well, at least we, jew-flavored Christians and MJs that post here are very serious!

I have to agree. The more I hang around this forum the more I see that a lot of people- Jew and Gentile alike- have a very romanticized view of the "Jewishness" of Jesus and His teachings. It's only after a certain maturity in faith arrives that people can let go of the whole ethnicity of God and His plan and embrace a working, healthy and holy relationship with Him.

What I have noticed is that the obsession with all things Jewish and Judaic really reduces Christianity down to a series of propositions and theologies- just like any denominational process. It changes Christianity into a subject for debate and the search of the perfect set of Messianic religious dogmas and trappings. But, when I read the NT, I see that Christianity was primarily intended to put endless religious debate over laws, interpretations and religious practices on its head. It is about a life lived in loving God and neighbor through action, led by the Holy Spirit, whose indwelling changes everything and makes all this religious stuff rather useless.

In religious forms of Christianity, like Catholicism, Anglicanism etc, we start up using traditions as a help to serving God but we end up serving the traditions instead. I see this happening full-throttle in the Hebrew roots/MJ movement as well. The more emphasis we see on "keeping God's appointed times" or using Hebrew words or whatever, the more we see people serving tradition and religion and the less we see of people living a life led in obedience to the things taught on the Sermon on the Mount. The Spirit-filled life takes a back seat to the abstinence of driving a car on Saturday, or feeding the poor or meeting wounded people on the steet with nothing but the Gospel of salvation. Lighting candles or wearing tzitzis or celebrating New Year does not fulfill the Law of Christ. While there is nothing wrong with religious observances we always seem to end up serving them and not the other way around. It's part of human nature and the desire to save oneself or guide one's own spiritual walk through our own efforts.

I just hope and pray that all this religious ritual/laws stuff does not take control of the MJ denominations like it did with many other forms of Christianity. It's really up to this generation of MJs to make a change.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Don't recall the reference off hand but IIRC, Acts' telling of Paul's conversion says that Yeshua called and spoke to him in Hebrew. Just 1 minor instance but it's there....

No. The Greek term ἑβραϊστί means both "in Hebrew" and "in Aramaic." It's the same word. I can demonstrate that to you, if you like - but all of the dictionaries say the same thing even without having to demonstrate it.